quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo
I would say Palestinian nationalism was fully formed by 1919 at the latest, and that's only because I'm being generous. This certainly incorporated antizionism, indeed Palestinian and Arab nationalism is seen by many to be borne entirely out of antizionism. I personally don't agree with that assessment but I would never deny it as a factor. I genuinely don't think its empirically possible to argue that it was the creation of the Israeli state in 1948 that created Palestinian nationalism or antizionism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

@Moonhead

I would say Palestinian nationalism was fully formed by 1919 at the latest, and that's only because I'm being generous. This certainly incorporated antizionism, indeed Palestinian and Arab nationalism is seen by many to be borne entirely out of antizionism. I personally don't agree with that assessment but I would never deny it as a factor. I genuinely don't think its empirically possible to argue that it was the creation of the Israeli state in 1948 that created Palestinian nationalism or antizionism.

@Powergamz

Despite it being my statement you have quoted I'm inclined to believe you are calling moonhead an holocaust denier rather than myself. For what its worth, I agree that one of the biggest attractions of Zionism for European Jews before WW1 was the chance to escape persecution and antisemitism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

@Moonhead

I would say Palestinian nationalism was fully formed by 1919 at the latest, and that's only because I'm being generous. This certainly incorporated antizionism, indeed Palestinian and Arab nationalism is seen by many to be borne entirely out of antizionism. I personally don't agree with that assessment but I would never deny it as a factor. I genuinely don't think its empirically possible to argue that it was the creation of the Israeli state in 1948 that created Palestinian nationalism or antizionism.

@Powergamz

Despite it being my statement you have quoted I'm inclined to believe you are calling moonhead an holocaust denier rather than myself. For what its worth, I agree that one of the biggest attractions of Zionism for European Jews before WW1 was the chance to escape persecution and antisemitism.

I've agreed multiple times with what you've posted about the antisemitism/anti-zionism link going back to the end of the 19th centry, and I provided extra examples that it is an unbroken chain from past to present..
As an addendum I debunked the antisemitic 'It all started with Israel' meme, because that has become so successful that it invariably pops up to muddy any attempt to have a rational discussion.

As far as which posters here are merely parroting that meme because they don't know the facts, and which ones do know better and are spreading it anyway, I haven't addressed that.
I would be quite surprised if anyone could prove that the number of anti-semitic people posting here is zero... and I'd be equally surprised if most anti-semites would admit to it, in favor of the Racism v2.0 approach which is prevalent on the internet today.

In any case, it needs to be said again and again that the valid complaints against the Israeli government and people (land grabs, water manipulation, politics as usual) need to be kept clearly separate from the massive pile of agit-prop and inflammatory rhetoric that is based on falsehoods.

The most obvious reason is that in a stalemate such as Israel/Palestine, repeating edited or slanted history merely fuels those on the Israeli side who would say 'See? They are lying about us and about history again, because they want to kill us all just like before'

That cycle needs to be broken before anything else can happen, and sunshine is the only disinfectant up to that task.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

The guilty flee, where none pursueth.
If you aren't a revisionist, then I wasn't talking about you, or to you, and you've got no complaint.

If you are simply whining because someone would dare bring factual and documented history in to counter agit-prop, then too damn bad.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

Just to be clear, I would consider antizionism and antisemitism two different phenomena

quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

Just to be clear, I would consider antizionism and antisemitism two different phenomena. Antizionism in Arabic countries was based around culture clashes (i.e. Jewish landowners not being aware of the Arabic custom of sharing Arable land) and was borne out of the Ottoman Tanzimat reforms in the 19th Century. There were tangible feeling that Zionism was a threat. Benedict Anderson suggests this is one of the precursors to a national consciousness being formed, which is why I keep going back to it. Antizionism was not inherently racist. Antisemitism in the 19th century seems to be based around the idea that Jewish population is united, its 'Jewish' identity transcends any other identities (French, German) and that it is against us. That is racist.

I think there have been myths on both sides, the notion that the Palestinians are invented has done them a lot of harm. Ultimately there is right and wrong on both sides. A modernist approach to nationalism would treat Zionist and Palestinian identity as having formed within about a 20 year period of one another. An ethnosymbolic approach would trace both identities back to before 1000AD. This is exactly why the polemical debates about Israel usurping the land in 1948, or about Jihadist bombers, are going to get people absolutely nowhere.

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

Just to be clear, I would consider antizionism and antisemitism two different phenomena

So should anybody who isn't a cretin. The only reason there's any confusion between the two is that the Israeli government has spent the last thirty years deliberately muddying the water so that they can claim anybody who finds their conduct in the occupied territories objectionable is an antisemite.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

The *only* reason?

So the Holocaust had absolutely zero to do with Zionism gaining traction among European Jews? The pogroms?

No connection of any kind? Those things are just Israel 'muddying the waters'?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

Like I said, discourse has impacted both sides. Zionism is a political movement just like any other. There have been antizionist Jews just as there have been antisemitic zionists. Ultimately I would like to see a historiography that makes more of the British role, from Palmerston to the end of the Mandate period.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
As far as which posters here are merely parroting that meme because they don't know the facts, and which ones do know better and are spreading it anyway, I haven't addressed that.
I would be quite surprised if anyone could prove that the number of anti-semitic people posting here is zero... and I'd be equally surprised if most anti-semites would admit to it, in favor of the Racism v2.0 approach which is prevalent on the internet today.