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RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 10:22:01 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

Can you go into a bit more detail about your methodology? Which records did you study, how did you do study them, what were you looking for when you initially studied the records?

You keep acting like I can't comprehend that a body of text or information could be a discourse which covers reality when I have just spent two pages of this discussion arguing the same thing. The difference is, I didn't just say 'The printing press enabled an intellectual elite to disseminate culture throughout Ottoman Palestine after 1908, plus I've got more'. You need to give me more than this. Give me a full position, and give me some links.



Well if you have not gotten past the swimming pools (plural) where can this possibly go from here? I can post till I am 90 and it will serve no purpose beyond an exercise in futility.

Lets start with what we are talking about.

Have you validated the people in that interview as actually being held prisoner at the camps? yes or no?

Have you researched and validated that what they said is true. The prisoner soccer games, orchestra, plays, canteena, library, and several more. Yes or no?

I am thinking no and no.

Start there and show us that you REALLY want to dig up the facts then come back and let me know what you find out. I gave you the information and a great point to start.

Its far nicer than the web of bullshit I had to wade though to get to the bottom of things.



< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/23/2013 10:25:21 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to thezeppo)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 10:25:26 AM   
mnottertail


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Has anyone validated that anything you have shown from the tinfoilers has been validated by actual camp prisoners.

No.



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 10:25:49 AM   
Demspotis


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Going back to the OP -

As you say, it's important to understand the historical background, and not just the post-WWII era. Much more of the ancient history seems relevant to me, beyond the common descent (whether physically, ideologically or both) from Abraham.

In terms of ancient history, there are two different main narratives. One is the story given in the Bible, and the other is what is drawn from historical documents and archeology. Some things are shared by both, and therefore corroborated and confirmed; others, some of them of great importance, are not shared. Beyond the Bible, there is additional information for that narrative from the Talmud, the crystallized record of Jewish oral tradition of Biblical interpretation in regard to law, and Kabbalah, the Jewish oral tradition in regard to spirituality.

The Bible says that Abraham came from Ur, a major city founded by the Sumerians, though by his time, the language and culture were Semitic. Oral tradition says his family had originally come from what would become the Promised Land (and the Bible places his relatives there, in fact). Skipping ahead, some of his descendants, in the Biblical narrative, went to Egypt, and after a change in dynasty, a new hostile ruler enslaved them. Eventually, under Moses, they fled from Egypt, and, according to the Bible, YHWH ordered the next Hebrew leader, Joshua, to genocide the Canaanites who then lived in the Promised Land and take it for their own. The Bible genealogy claims that the Canaanites were Hamitic, that is, related to the Egyptians, rather than Semitic.

Now, one major point of difference between the Biblical narrative and history and archeology is that there is no evidence whatsoever of any such invasion and genocide. Too, there is no evidence that that Canaanites were anything but Semites, and closely related to the Hebrews. Their language was nearly identical; and the genetic study shown in the OP may be taken as supportive too. The main difference is religious: the Canaanites were polytheists, and also may have had a less strict moral code than the Hebrews.

There is, however, a possible historical explanation for this belief of the Canaanites as related to Egyptians: at one point, the Egyptian empire had expanded well into the Middle East, including the region of Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, etc., so that during that period, the rulers (not the populace) were either Egyptian governors, or locals in vassalage to the Pharaoh. Certainly there was some cultural influence; if the Egyptians built anything, it would have been according to their own architectural styles, and those would have remained well beyond the time of the Egyptian dominion there. To hostile eyes, it could have seemed "proof" that the Canaanites were foreigners, instead of close kin.

Some Kabbalist teachers (I'm not going to name any, since they, especially those alive today, might not appreciate their names being bandied about in such a place ;), but a web search for Kabbalah ought to turn up some examples easily enough) say the Bible is not meant to be taken literally, especially the apparently historical portions; that these are spiritual metaphors. Some of these teachers accept the scientific version as the historical truth.

So, this version says that perhaps some slaves that escaped Egypt came back to the land and joined up with kinfolk with the same or similar religious ideas, and then they expanded, gradually taking the dominant place and becoming ancient Israel, and then the split into two kingdoms of Israel and Judah. (At least in broad terms, there is little difference from this point in the two narratives)

Regardless of the origin of the kingdom(s), and whether or not the founders actually genocided previous inhabitants, there was both conflict and peace with various neighboring peoples, most of whom were fellow Semites, some of them closely related to the Hebrews. Then came a succession of great empires that conquered the whole Middle East, including the coastal area where Israel and Judah were. Some of these empires were Semitic, like the Assyrians and Babylonians, others were Indo-Europeans like the Persians or the earlier Hittites. The Turks were still living in Siberia back then, but most of the peoples living in what became modern Turkey were Indo-European. Toiday, aside from the Persians/Iranis there are the Kurds in the Indo-European family... and for that matter, much of the populace of Turkey is still mostly descended from those other IE peoples, even if they have spoken the Turkish language for many centuries. Among them was a colony of Celts, the Galatians; I'm told that some of them still retain some kind of Galatian identity.

The Persian empire lasted until Alexander conquered it; but the Persian empire adopted the Aramaic language as its lingua franca of government, presumably because so many of its subject peoples were Semites. Aramaic is another Semitic languages, closely related to Hebrew... in some ways seeming about halfway between Hebrew and Arabic.

Alexander's conquests shattered, and ended up being a patchwork of smaller kingdoms as before the age of the great empires began. When the Romans became uppity and imperialistic, they absorbed these many little nations into their dominion. Most of them mostly accepted the status quo... being oppressed was nothing new to anyone there. The Jews had a habit of rebelling every once in a while, and eventually the Romans dealt with it by ejecting them all from their homeland, and for several centuries no Jewish person could go there, and especially not to Jerusalem.

Meanwhile, other peoples moved in to the then-unoccupied lands. Also, there were converts to Christianity who were unaffected by the exile of Jews, because by that time the communities had fully split. Later, the Roman Empire made Christianity the official religion on pain of death (except for Jews, who were, however, barred from their own country), so all of the remaining pagan Semites of the region became Christian at that time. A few centuries later, Islam was born, and the Arabs conquered the Middle East, bringing their religion and language. They did not, however, genocide people who converted, and most converted in that area, so they are not actually "Arabs", they just speak Arabic. Also, there remained a significant Christian minority in most Muslim countries up to the present day. As such, the Palestinians and their neighbors AND the Jews are all indigenous; but the Jews had been exiled by the Roman imperial authorities.

The real problem, then, isn't foreign colonists oppressing indigenous people, it's two groups of indigenous people, who are kin, refusing to recognize each other and their respective historical situations, and refusing to share their common heritage. In the ancient conflict, theology came into play: the worshippers of the god of Abraham against the other Semites who remained polytheistic. But, today, the Jews and both the Muslim and Christian Palestinians all worship that same one god of Abraham, so if by chance some Jews see in today's conflict a replay of the supposed war against the Canaanites, it's a mistake, theologically speaking.

So, summing up all that, in regard to the present-day troubles: the Jews are indigenous to the region. When in exile, of course they wanted to return. This is the "original" Zionism. Actually, the real origin is when most of the important Jews were taken to Babylonia by the Babylonian Empire. When the Persians took over, they let the Jews go home, if they wanted. (Many stayed... some stayed until the formation of modern Israel and the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries, some even until the aftermath of the Iraq War.)

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 10:27:19 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Has anyone validated that anything you have shown from the tinfoilers has been validated by actual camp prisoners.

No.

Has anyone validated that the films have been validated by actual camp prisoners?
No.

Has anyone validated the lies about the chief forensic examiner of the us found nothing like this or that, or that his assistant did?

No.


Has anything you have said been even slightly validated by credible citation and validated camp inmates?

No..



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 10:30:12 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

Can you go into a bit more detail about your methodology? Which records did you study, how did you do study them, what were you looking for when you initially studied the records?



death records, red cross, camp construction, several tests of various materials etc.

let me know if you can find any "hard evidence" that those prisoners were not real and that their testimony is not factual.

and do answer my 2 questions above.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to thezeppo)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 10:35:59 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Demspotis
So, summing up all that, in regard to the present-day troubles: the Jews are indigenous to the region. When in exile, of course they wanted to return. This is the "original" Zionism. Actually, the real origin is when most of the important Jews were taken to Babylonia by the Babylonian Empire. When the Persians took over, they let the Jews go home, if they wanted. (Many stayed... some stayed until the formation of modern Israel and the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries, some even until the aftermath of the Iraq War.)


zionism in purely a political arm, that which jews are not allowed to have by scripture.






of course there are those tinfoilers who would claim its a rabbi conspiracy.

as stated earlier there is a huge distinction between zion and judaism



statism is the hydra that eats everyone and everything in its path.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/23/2013 10:37:38 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Demspotis)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 10:41:22 AM   
thezeppo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

Can you go into a bit more detail about your methodology? Which records did you study, how did you do study them, what were you looking for when you initially studied the records?

You keep acting like I can't comprehend that a body of text or information could be a discourse which covers reality when I have just spent two pages of this discussion arguing the same thing. The difference is, I didn't just say 'The printing press enabled an intellectual elite to disseminate culture throughout Ottoman Palestine after 1908, plus I've got more'. You need to give me more than this. Give me a full position, and give me some links.



Well if you have not gotten past the swimming pools (plural) where can this possibly go from here? I can post till I am 90 and it will serve no purpose beyond an exercise in futility.

Lets start with what we are talking about.

Have you validated the people in that interview as actually being held prisoner at the camps? yes or no?

Have you researched and validated that what they said is true. The prisoner soccer games, orchestra, plays, canteena, library, and several more. Yes or no?

I am thinking no and no.

Start there and show us that you REALLY want to dig up the facts then come back and let me know what you find out. I gave you the information and a great point to start.





Being as this is what I would loosely term 'a debate', the onus isn't usually on one side to come up with the evidence for both sides of the argument. It is your position, you defend it. Also, you haven't given me anywhere to start. I genuinely don't know the first step is in replicating your studies, because you haven't told me from where your research comes. You did give me one actually, you said that there was no evidence anyone was gassed. I know the origination of that assertion. I will tell you mine if you tell me yours.

Also can we assume that, rather than being unable to get past the swimming pool idea, I simply don't consider it the groundbreaking addition to the study of the holocaust that you do. Seriously, I've disputed the veracity of the one source you have provided so far, but I haven't tried to refute any of your assertions. That is because I am waiting for one to appear.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 10:59:57 AM   
thezeppo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

Can you go into a bit more detail about your methodology? Which records did you study, how did you do study them, what were you looking for when you initially studied the records?



death records, red cross, camp construction, several tests of various materials etc.

let me know if you can find any "hard evidence" that those prisoners were not real and that their testimony is not factual.

and do answer my 2 questions above.


Ah, got it. This is your research:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuchter_report

Am I right?

Its fun, not often I debate with people who make me guess what their evidence is. Its a fresh new stylee

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 11:03:50 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

Being as this is what I would loosely term 'a debate', the onus isn't usually on one side to come up with the evidence for both sides of the argument. It is your position, you defend it. Also, you haven't given me anywhere to start. I genuinely don't know the first step is in replicating your studies, because you haven't told me from where your research comes. You did give me one actually, you said that there was no evidence anyone was gassed. I know the origination of that assertion. I will tell you mine if you tell me yours.

Also can we assume that, rather than being unable to get past the swimming pool idea, I simply don't consider it the groundbreaking addition to the study of the holocaust that you do. Seriously, I've disputed the veracity of the one source you have provided so far, but I haven't tried to refute any of your assertions. That is because I am waiting for one to appear.



nothing I have said is claimed to be ground breaking.

I dropped plenty of names and gave you plenty of information.

your avoidance of posting a relevant conclusion about the swimming pool proves my point.

I have no intention of digging up volumes of references only to have you become silent and the drummers claim they debunked the swimming pool to have to go out and look it all up again.

Like I said if you are serious there are volumes of great information out there and readily available to make these points.


I rarely use wiki btw


and what does that have to do with camp entertainment for prisoners or are you hoping to defer?

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/23/2013 11:06:50 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to thezeppo)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 11:19:24 AM   
Real0ne


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I dont deny the holocause like everything else I require it and anything else considered to be historical monuments to be proven.

there he goes with that jadism as a race crap again, after how many people have shown him beyond a shadow of unreasonable doubt that is bullshit.







< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/23/2013 11:24:50 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 11:24:32 AM   
thezeppo


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No, I didn't use Wiki much either when I completed my history degree. The problem is that its very difficult to find a reputable source willing to mention that particular report, except to completely discredit it. I mention my history degree because it is the same degree Lauchtner claimed qualified him to complete his engineering report.

You don't have to dig up the references anyway, I already know them. At this point I'm genuinely curious as to whether you do, or if it is just all about the swimming pools. You could be so much better at this if you did a bit of research.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 11:27:17 AM   
jlf1961


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Before putting him on ignore, I tried to verify his claims and found nothing that did so that was not a Racist or Antisemitic web site. I did find a lot of sites that blew his claims out of the water, some even in German.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to thezeppo)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 11:27:38 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

No, I didn't use Wiki much either when I completed my history degree. The problem is that its very difficult to find a reputable source willing to mention that particular report, except to completely discredit it. I mention my history degree because it is the same degree Lauchtner claimed qualified him to complete his engineering report.

You don't have to dig up the references anyway, I already know them. At this point I'm genuinely curious as to whether you do, or if it is just all about the swimming pools. You could be so much better at this if you did a bit of research.



yeh right this moment it is all about the swimming pools and everything those prisoners testified to in the deposition.


The prisoner soccer games, orchestra, plays, canteena, library, and several more.


If you are a history major I frankly would expect you know these existed.




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/23/2013 11:28:15 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to thezeppo)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 11:29:08 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Before putting him on ignore, I tried to verify his claims and found nothing that did so that was not a Racist or Antisemitic web site. I did find a lot of sites that blew his claims out of the water, some even in German.



how unfortunate you failed to post them

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 11:47:15 AM   
thezeppo


Posts: 441
Joined: 11/15/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

No, I didn't use Wiki much either when I completed my history degree. The problem is that its very difficult to find a reputable source willing to mention that particular report, except to completely discredit it. I mention my history degree because it is the same degree Lauchtner claimed qualified him to complete his engineering report.

You don't have to dig up the references anyway, I already know them. At this point I'm genuinely curious as to whether you do, or if it is just all about the swimming pools. You could be so much better at this if you did a bit of research.



yeh right this moment it is all about the swimming pools and everything those prisoners testified to in the deposition.


The prisoner soccer games, orchestra, plays, canteena, library, and several more.


If you are a history major I frankly would expect you know these existed.





Well, the way that history works usually is that a historian evaluates the quality of the source material available for a particular position. I evaluated the quality of your video, and found it wanting on the basis that it contained only six testimonies. If I was to show you a video which had seven (more even) holocaust survivors which said the concentration camps were actually pretty awful would your head explode? Once again, I don't care about swimming pools. Have you ever heard of the Wansee Conference? The evidence is there if you know where to look for it ;-)

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 12:15:10 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne



Credible citation please.


another one was sent to confirm his findings and he also came to the same conclusions.



So you can't cite a single word to support the nonsense you're talking from either of them, then?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 3:28:59 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
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Status: offline
As I said... finger*s*, and among *others*...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

It's hardly just in Britain's interests, or even just in western government's interests to have a zionist state as a distraction for the jihadists. How long do you think the more sane States in the middle east would last if Israel wasn't there to keep the nutcases in Syria and Egypt busy? They're probably the only reason the Saudis haven't invaded Qatar and told them to stop talking about giving women the vote, come to that...



_____________________________

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" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 4:42:17 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Self interests as in the Opium Wars, the slave trade, the Raj, the Boer Wars, terra nullius Jeffrey Amherst, Cromwell and so on, and so on, and so on, just like any other empire.

The thing is that in the Middle East, the fingers are still very much in the pie, and David Irving's ideas still befoul any attempt to have rational discussion about solutions.

It is in modern Britain's (among others) self interests to keep the pit-fight between the W.O.G.s going.



Your anti British stance shines brighter than any actual facts. Would you care to enlighten us on your last sentence ?

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 4:43:37 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne



Credible citation please.


another one was sent to confirm his findings and he also came to the same conclusions.



So you can't cite a single word to support the nonsense you're talking from either of them, then?



I pointed out one of his earlier posted links sstated that the "swimming pool" was infact a resevoir. he still hasnt got back to me.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. - 1/23/2013 4:48:35 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

enjoy the links



what, like the one from Rense.com about the swimming pool.

It`s fucking laughable, one conpiracist quoting another as actual fact.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 180
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