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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 6:12:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g
....what is the relationship between, or difference between, dominance and selfishness?

None and everything.
You are comparing chalk and cheese, apples to oranges etc.
Two entirely different things.

Admittedly, often entangled and intertwined, but completely different nonetheless.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g
I see some Dommes on this site discussing men who want women to do things to them, almost like a joke. Like saying "If you were a true submissive, you care about me, not what you want." It seems like the suggestion in these posts is that "real subs are selfless, and I want a sub who is all about me." Is this selfishness?

Nope. Just like your earlier question - it's about the dynamic.

The dominant dominates the submissive.
If the submissive wants to run the show, they are topping from the bottom.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with selfishness at all - it's all in the dynamic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g
Then I see suggestions that basically run along the lines of "Make it all about me, and I might deign to possibly do something you might enjoy."

Is dominance inherently selfish?

Again, it's all in the power dynamic.
Dominance is being in charge... having that power.
Selfishness is an emotion and nothing to do with it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g
Am I missing something here?

Nope. I don't think so.

Like many dom/mes who equate being dominant with being ignorant/domineering and/or an asshat.
Completely different subject material and needs to be treated in an entirely different manner.

(in reply to pg4g)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 6:44:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

This is part of the reason I shy away from TPE relationships.

I was burned one time.
It won't happen again.

I'm sure their are many successful and excellent TPE relationships, many here seem to have them.
But I was so miserably unheard and unhappy...I'll never do it again.

That risk isn't worth my career or self respect.

You picked a bad match. Who's fault is that??

It's like saying I got sun-burnt so I'll never go out in the sun again.
Or, I managed to burn myself on the gas cooker flame so I'll never cook with gas ever again.
Stupid. Unbelievably obtuse.

Learn from your mistake.
Be more vigilant in your choice of people.

I don't buy into that, there is more to BDSM than TPE, what she does is the equivalent of somebody who had a crash with a motorbike and decides to not ride motorbikes again, because what she gets from it is not worth the risk, she has a lot more safety in a car and it also gets her where she wants to go. Or to use your gas cooker experience, she's now more careful with gas...

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 6:58:37 AM

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In another thread we were talking about a master who seemed to ignore his sub, and punished her for continuing to discuss something. He wanted something a certain way, and he didn't seem to want to listen to anything about changing it. It led me to think about something that worries me greatly: what is the relationship between, or difference between, dominance and selfishness?

That dominant was being abusive and emotionally unresponsive (IMO). You could say he was being that way *because* he was selfish and I agree. But dominants as a rule have an inherently selfish streak, else they wouldn't be so convinced they should be the one telling others what to do. That does take the kind of ego that comes across as selfishness, even if (in a good dominant) that ego makes decisions for the betterment of all.

I see some Dommes on this site discussing men who want women to do things to them, almost like a joke. Like saying "If you were a true submissive, you care about me, not what you want." It seems like the suggestion in these posts is that "real subs are selfless, and I want a sub who is all about me." Is this selfishness? Then I see suggestions that basically run along the lines of "Make it all about me, and I might deign to possibly do something you might enjoy."

This is b/c so many male subs learn about BDSM through porn, and get the idea that all fem dommes should be their fetish delivery system b/c they offered themselves up as a slave. They have the mistaken assumption that since they want instant kinky sex, all the women on this site should want it too.

They get classified as 'do me' subs, but in the end, all subs are 'do me' subs in the sense that we wouldn't be with a dominant unless he or she floated our submissive boat. However, part of being submissive is giving up your ego and letting your dom have their way, whether it's right or wrong, good for you or not, selfish or not. If you can't do that, you're not very submissive in my mind.

As others have pointed out, the trick here is to be with a dominant who cares about your needs and wants as well as their own. Who doesn't use that giving up or the sub's ego to inflate their own. This isn't always so easy to see, which is why subs get told to take it slow and make sure you know the person.

Is dominance inherently selfish? When I take control, I'm only ever interested in ensuring we will get both of our needs met. I'm taking control of the experience for both of us. I kind of can't comprehend the selfishness I spoke of above. It would never sit right with me to be that uninterested in the needs of the other person, no matter the power exchange occurring. I might decide that right now, I'm going to get what I want, their pleasure is delayed, but it still certainly is extremely important to me that they get what they want.

In a sexual way, I think *most* dominants (certainly good ones) care about fulfilling their sub's needs. In non-sexual ways, many dominates make choices based on what *they* want and put their sub's needs secondary, which is their right in many relationships. This may be selfish, but it is a selfishness that (hopefully) was agreed upon with an open mind. I have that type of relationship, Himself just gets to decide some things b/c he wants to and no, he doesn't take my 'needs' into consideration.

I put needs into quotes b/c many people get needs and wants mixed up. Beyond the physical basics of food, water, air, shelter, clothing, humans do have some emotional needs. But the truth is, many things that people perceive as needs are merely wants.

I think I need a new pair of boots, in reality, I merely want them, unless not having the boots means not having proper protection for my feet.

It's relatively easy to fulfill physical needs, they don't change person to person. Emotional needs are different. Dominant who don't care about their sub's emotional needs will either not have a sub for long, or will choose those who are not very emotionally stable and who in the end go emotionally berserk.

Am I missing something here?

Being a good dominant means treading a fine line between your own selfish wants, and your sub's wants. If and when that jeopardizes a sub's actual needs (most especially his/her emotional needs) you are now becoming abusive. And that line varies with the individual.

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 3/5/2014 7:06:33 AM >

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 7:03:42 AM

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Granted.

BDSM is a very wide subject indeed.

It's probably the way I read it and the way I saw it coming across.

I got terribly burned in one marriage.
I lost just about everything except what I stood in, including my kids.
Did I say to myself "I'll never get married again because the risks aren't worth it?".
Nope. I dusted myself off and tried again.
This time, trying to be a little more logical in my selection process and not be fooled by rose-tinted glasses.
So far, second time round is going well.
Will it last?? I honestly don't know at this point.
Like anything else in life, we make our choices and have to live with them or make new choices.

Meh.
It's too early in the day and not enough caffeine intake. lol.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 7:04:34 AM

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Before I say anything I just want to say how much I love this thread. There is a lot of good debate and I see some dominants admitting to being "selfish" in some sense.

I also want to say, that I get yelled at a lot on here and fetlife because I tend to articulate things wrong, or they get taken in the wrong way because I am not fully ingratiated into the mindset of a dominant or submissive or what have you.

But I have noticed that I am able to dominate very well when I honestly reflect that my want and my subs wants are the same thing. I'm not sure I would say its terribly selfish, because I can't help but think of it as the person asking what I want. When you ask what I want and I tell you what I want, is it selfish? Maybe I am presenting the idea wrong, but I had a friend ask me to coach him on Domming because he saw mine and his wife's relationship after they asked for my help, and after seeing how I was with her he told me "Well really it seems what I need is to be more of an asshole" (his words not mine).

In normal standards I think a dom would be called selfish, hell most likely a "selfish neglectful ass" is what some would call a dom, but its because when you look only at the surface that is kind of what they are. But when you measure the waters depths and you see a dominant/submissive dynamic you will see two souls reflecting one anothers desires, a dominant who wants to give orders and a submissive who wants to be given orders. If I selfishly ask for something and my sub lovingly does it and looks at it as endearing, then what matters if it is selfish?

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 7:10:08 AM

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I agree with you, if everybody's happy, it doesn't matter...

There was a discussion down there about service without emotions, which I think ties in nicely here

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4651015/mpage_2/tm.htm

I fucked up a "relationship" by making it more personal, the other person didn't want it, had I been more selfish and self-centered, he'd still would get his kink on (and I'd get my shoes cleaned), by trying to not be the selfish bitch (which is what he wanted) things went belly up. Can't blame it on the sub, it was my mistake 100%

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 7:12:14 AM

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My dominant could never be mistaken for a 'selfish neglectful ass.' He is a laid back, quiet, very nice man who just so happens to be the smartest person in the room (most of the time). This is where he gets his dominance, not b/c he's such a selfish asshole he wants to call all the shots, but b/c past experience has taught him he *should* be the one calling the shots b/c he's the one seeing all the options, carefully weighing up with pros and cons, and capable of making the best decision for all.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 7:15:40 AM

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Chatte, your dynamic is different, if the wife gets off on him acting out the selfish ass part and it floats her boat, it's very consensual.

Hell, I just can't ever understand why people get off on the baby or diaper fetish, or scat, I mean those are things that have me running for the hills (more likely to the bathroom to puke my guts out), still, if it works for them, great, I just don't want to see or smell it.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 7:27:05 AM

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Oh Himself can be very selfish, there are plenty of times he gets what he gets just b/c he wants it. But he's not interfering with my needs in any way.

There's the crux of the issue to me. First, people mistaking wants for needs, and second, people not understanding that *everyone* has emotional needs that have to be fulfilled. Repeatedly not being able to or not wanting to address that issue will eventually kill the relationship.

In the relationship this thread refers to, the wife most obviously has emotional needs her husband is not addressing. Sure, she came in complaining about being put in slave positions on a daily basis, but anyone who thinks that was her *real* complaint does not know much about relationships.

I can put up with Himself deciding what DVD we'll watch tonight, what we'll have for dinner, when we'll go to bed, b/c he DOES fulfill my emotional needs very well. Those little things stay little and do not becomes an issue.

When you don't get your needs fulfilled for a prolonged period of time, all the sudden every tiny thing becomes an issue.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 7:34:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

When you don't get your needs fulfilled for a prolonged period of time, all the sudden every tiny thing becomes an issue.

Oh absolutely, at least for most people, however there are emotional masochists who's needs are fulfilled by not getting them fulfilled, or people who are so focused on a single fetish that it has taken over the emotional needs they might have, they are so focused on the fetish (who I assume fulfills their needs) that they don't want any emotional attachment with the person fulfilling their fetish and get disturbed by even the most casual social interactions and manners.

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There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 7:47:38 AM

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Yes, and I've encountered them. Some very good male subs are like that.

The thing is, people's emotional needs are subject to change over time. I think that's what happened in the Gor relationship, the female went into it with a fairly high degree of emotional masochism, but marriage, perhaps children, perhaps just time has caused her needs to change.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 7:51:21 AM

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This is one of the times where I feel the abstract concept of dominance can mask the general variance of people.

I have not found doms to be more selfish. I have not found subs to be more selfless.

Dominance is primarily an issue of power/hierarchy rather than what you do with it. Are you a good or bad leader?

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 7:52:40 AM

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To the OP: Most people these days jump into relationships without taking the time to get to know someone. Or they did take the time and get into the relationship and somehow one partner decides to change the rules of the relationship without talking to the other person about it. I believe being dominant is not and should never be about being selfish it is much deeper than that. Which is why there a lot of dominants who fall into the controlling, insecure, and abusive category. A submissive needs to be really mindful who they give their mind, body, and heart to and be willing to walk away if they realize they have not chosen wisely.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 7:55:23 AM

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I would agree with that, and from what she said, I don't think very highly of her husband, as he doesn't seem to be able or willing to recognize the changes, good leadership (which is essentially what a d type does) is having an eye on the needs of the s type, every relationship is bound to crash if there isn't a balance there, it might not look like a balance to the outside due to the power exchange that happens, but different people have different needs.

I'm ready to admit that I always tried to stay clear of emotional masochists, it's just something I'm not comfortable with. I like to approach my kinks from a happy side, emotional masochism makes me uncomfy.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 8:07:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I'm ready to admit that I always tried to stay clear of emotional masochists, it's just something I'm not comfortable with. I like to approach my kinks from a happy side, emotional masochism makes me uncomfy.

Yes, I'm so glad you put that out there. I'm uncomfortable with it as well. In my experience it always seems to end up a train wreck. This could just be my own bias showing, but that's how it seems to me.

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 3/5/2014 8:10:10 AM >

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 8:16:44 AM

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I admit I have always been curious about emotional sadism/masochism, but feel it is a dark and dangerous path that I myself feel I am not yet mature enough for.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 1:10:57 PM

Rawni

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I posted a few things in my journal, not all inclusive; just tidbits of topics that sometimes bring on discussion with others. Ego, selfishness and what I think of as a femdom are all things I have addressed and I think they all work together in a sense. I said these things in three different journal entries.

1. Dominance is not selfishness. Selfishness is often childishness. A five year old thinks the world centers around them, revolves around them and we should outgrow that as we grow up. Dominance to a submissive can be an amazing thing, but selfishness can make things go wrong, nearly every single incident I have ever seen or heard of.

If dominance is selfish, then submissiveness would be the opposite right? Doesn't that show that the submissive would be a better person? A dominant doesn't need to be less of a decent person to be dominant. In fact, I believe a giving dominant can be one of the best dominant's.

If dominance is selfishness... is someone trying to say that submissives aren't and shouldn't be at all? That is unrealistic. In fantasy all this may play out... but in real life it starts to get ugly.

2.Female led relationships, according to me, don't mean a bossy or bitchy woman, demanding. They mean that I have final say whether I get your input or not and most the time you have some sort of input. It means that I take responsibility to lead the relationship and our lives and I don't need to be bossy or a bitch to do so. You don't have to be less to give me more. In fact, a dominant often gives more if they are responsible and more importantly, accountable. It isn't the happiness of one that is sought, but the happiness and well being of all parties involved, for the fulfillment of them all. They simply have different positions.

It is in my own best interest to pay attention to my submissive partner, to see to his well being and how our relationship brings it all about. If he isn't happy, I won't be happy.

I rarely have demands. I often have expectations. These are very different things in my view of things. Demands can be made by a three year old and are often just as distasteful. Expectations come from one adult to another, that have agreed upon a dynamic that should work for both. These relationships can be healthy, nurturing, balanced and fulfilling, all while fun and kinky.

So many get excited thinking of a dominant woman using them, demanding they do kinky things and calling them names or humiliating them. These things can be a part of play, but when used as every day tools within the relationship, things are or could go to dangerous and unhealthy places. We can have the best of both, if balanced and well thought out. I tend to build my partners. I don't want a broken partner or one that is unfulfilled as a person. I want him strong within himself and within our relationship. Submission does not mean weak or weakness. It is a strength that manifest in a decision to defer to another.

3.One of the worst traits a dominant could have is an ego trip. You see some of the stupidest things being done because of an ego tripping dominant. Some are even dangerous. What is sometimes done in the name of dominance, really ought to be criminal and sometimes is.

To cover these things it takes more than tidbits on huge topics. I do not need to be selfish or demanding or egotistical to be in a leadership position and those often in position to abuse will be all those things. I structure myself on what I know is best, that fits my personality, my wisdom etc. I lead. Is it selfish, childish, to wish to lead when you know you have led better than others in various situations? To know your strengths does not entail being weak... thus, selfish and childish in my view of things. I wish to lead, it works for me. I do not need to be more, expect more and focus on myself. Leadership isn't just someone that wants to charge in and be boss. They should have reasons they feel they qualify to lead.

To submit doesn't mean less and should be considered less so that they can submit. It is something they should feel comfortable and more fitting to their personality and qualities. They may be just as wise, strong, intelligent, etc. but feel more comfortable and enjoy not leading.

We can talk about the emotional dynamics and the physical and can be in very different places when it comes to dominance. I am not always a demanding lover and am not sadistic. I wish to match up my physical desires with someone that matches my own and its exciting for both. It is fun. It doesn't have to be anything negative, selfish or egotistical... though it can be, but what we do in fun and excitement isn't always the same type of thing outside the bedroom and emotions.

< Message edited by Rawni -- 3/5/2014 1:16:15 PM >

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 1:55:44 PM

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Good post Rawni.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 2:33:13 PM

nyx84

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g

quote:

ORIGINAL: nyx84
I think you should pay more attention to what the dom/me wants then what they want because if you have a good dom/me that value your wellbeing and that includes your happiness.

You do realise this is like saying "Give me all your money, and I might pay for your food"? It's a big risk to take.

I know the conversation has driffted a little and moved on but I wanted to reply.

Every time I submit I take a risk (not a big one as I only submit to one man that I completely trust). In submitting I expose the core of myself. The part no one else gets to see and in doing so I become extremely vulnerable he knows whare all my strength and weaknesses lie and could destroy me spirituality and emotionally. But part of his responsibility as my dom is to protect me whare I am most vulnerable when I need it. But its worth the risk as I put what he wants first he puts my safty first (something I'm bad at paying attention to).

And yes as some of the D folks hear have said about they put there wants first but they still consider the needs of their subs. And it is needs thats important. I want to learn to ride a motorbike but I'm not allowed because I'm a clumsy oaf (my words not his he said something along the lines of I don't think that would be safe) and my safty is a need. If I need something I have it if I want something he takes two thongs into consideration (well probably more) if I'm ill (I've been indulged a bit the last 3 weeks as I'm now on my 2nd case of tonsillitis and round of antibiotics) and more usually he considers his wants and how if at all mine impact his.

I think I rambled a bit its getting late and I'm getting sleepy

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 3:51:19 PM

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self·ish

adjective

1. (of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

If you act without consideration, just be prepared to face any possible resulting consequences. True for both sides of the kneel.

As for my own profit and pleasure, I take what I want, but not if it isn't mine to have. Simple enough, and to the heart of the matter.

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