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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 4:23:37 PM

NiceButMeanGirl

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A Dominant can be selfish but that doesn't mean s/he has to be. Just as a submissive can be selfish but s/he doesn't have to be. I could never believe a dynamic should be all about me only. By the same token, I would never accept a submissive who just wants a fetish-delivery system to scratch his kinky itch. A dynamic/relationship really needs to be about both people, in my opinion anyway. If it's not, the one whose needs are not getting met is not going to stick around for very long. I know I wouldn't & I wouldn't expect him to either.

NBMG

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 4:47:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

This is part of the reason I shy away from TPE relationships.

I was burned one time.
It won't happen again.

I'm sure their are many successful and excellent TPE relationships, many here seem to have them.
But I was so miserably unheard and unhappy...I'll never do it again.

That risk isn't worth my career or self respect.

You picked a bad match. Who's fault is that??

It's like saying I got sun-burnt so I'll never go out in the sun again.
Or, I managed to burn myself on the gas cooker flame so I'll never cook with gas ever again.
Stupid. Unbelievably obtuse.

Learn from your mistake.
Be more vigilant in your choice of people.

I mean...see what you're saying...

But perhaps I just blame myself so much I really can't bring myself to make the mistake again?
Like I still hate myself so much for being that niave (I'm 26...I haven't even been actively in relationships for a decade yet...this wound is relatively new) I am just unwilling to have everything dumped on me again.

And for the record...I have gotten bad sun burns and now I'm exceedingly careful in the sun. I mean....crazy coverups and SPF 100000, reapplied every half an hour.

And I also haven't eaten cottage cheese since I was 8 because I barfed it up and now I just can't do it.

There are compounding factors with me as well...I have drifted from kink entirely out of fear before...and while it may seem stupid to you.. Its just a reality I grapple with.

While there may be a better TPE match for me out there...why would I choose that when I am so much happier in a different dynamic?
Or...why would I pick gas if electric makes me happier?

But more to my point...I don't choose to put aspects of myself into someone else's hands anymore. Due to peoples...not necessarily just Dom's...selfishness.

Which is also in part due to selfishness on my part. And I'm a s type. But as it has been said...both sides of the kneel are selfish. Only engage with those you trust and who are worth the risk, to you.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 5:13:59 PM

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FR

Am I the only one who hopes that his target femdom *does* have a solid streak of selfishness in her? Gawd. A controlled streak, to be sure . . . but it's got to be there, no? How can I please her if she's not selfish enough to accept my pleasing her?

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 5:24:51 PM

pg4g

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Every person has a certain amount of self-interest. Someone gives me a gift - do I hand it to someone else? No, I graciously accept and am happy I got it.

I'm talking extreme selfishness, to the point of narcassim, where they're blind to the fact they're in a sense responsible for the sub's enjoyment, and instead make the sub's life a misery of service with no hope for their needs to be met, and they don't care if the sub leaves, because they'll just get a new one. If the sub's needs are to serve without any recompense, or to be objectified, then that's great and all, but a Dom/me would still need to be mindful of the sub's needs and be willing to adjust their response as appropriate.

When I hear of someone just wanting to use someone to clean the house, not talk to their slave, just get served and ignore them, well that just screams lack of any interest in another human being. And that type of nature leads me to think of some other interesting characters in our history: the nazi treatment of the jews and other minorities. When you start thinking you can honestly use and abuse a person without it being for the person's interest as well - you're just wanting to use another human being - then that worries me.

< Message edited by pg4g -- 3/5/2014 5:26:24 PM >

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 5:51:04 PM

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People are inherently selfish. We want food when we're hungry, not when someone else is. And so on with every other need or desire.

The important thing is to pick a partner who needs their partner to be happy with them. Then their innate selfishness will include having a happy and satisfying relationship.

The problem doesn't arise by picking a selfish dominant, but one whose needs are not compatible with yours. Those of us with partners who enjoy knowing we love being with them are driven to keep their selfish enjoyment by doing things that feed us, as well as themselves.

Don't blame the tpe for things not working out. Blame yourself for not knowing what you need in a partner, not screening for those needs, and for accepting something that doesn't work for you. Which, not coincidentally, is the same place blame belongs in a failed vanilla relationship.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 3/5/2014 5:52:45 PM >

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 5:54:48 PM

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I think dominance is selfish. But that's not a negative in my book.
I find it hot.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 6:58:03 PM

Kana

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quote:

Is dominance inherently selfish?

It can be.
Not so much in my life, but sure, there's inherent selfishness in it...like there is in almost every human act.
Like lots else in BDSM, especially the real juicy shit that lies at the heart, there's an internal paradox operating here.
She's a slave. Her central purpose in my life is to do my bidding-I'm a Lawrencian hedonist so IMHO that her point in being is to make my life a better place.
For me.
Pretty straightforward so far. I'm a selfish manipulative prick who gets others to do my desire.
Worse, I'm fucking ungrateful too, because I beat her regularly, with or w/o provocation, cause, justification, rhyme or reason.
Buuuuuuuuuut, and here's the rub, she takes pleasure in serving, in accountability, in a tight leash around her neck.
So when I act, well, domineering, she gets pleasure and joy from that.
Even, sometimes especially, when she doesn't like what I'm demanding/taking/doing.
So my holding the leash fulfills her need to be leashed.
She could, and often does, make an equal argument that she's the one selfish in the relationship, that she's just doing/acting what comes naturally and that she doesn't give enough.
Quid pro quo.
She feeds my fire and I pour it back into her. The power exchanges, grows, forms a closed loop that spirals higher and higher as trust grows.
It's an amazing thing.
Two people, both getting their needs met, each acting equally selfishly and in so doing, totally selflessly.

< Message edited by Kana -- 3/5/2014 7:01:07 PM >

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 7:48:34 PM

pg4g

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I completely agree, and I don't see anything wrong with that, Kana. As a person who inherently enjoys being used and abused physically when I hate and despise it, I definitely understand the paradox. In fact, at one stage have had to tell my guy "Stop being so selfless and take what you want!"

I see issues when a dom however doesn't see it like this, and instead sees it as an opportunity to use and abuse a person and not give a damn about the sub. That's true selfishness, and that rubs me up the wrong way.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 7:57:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Am I the only one who hopes that his target femdom *does* have a solid streak of selfishness in her? Gawd. A controlled streak, to be sure . . . but it's got to be there, no? How can I please her if she's not selfish enough to accept my pleasing her?

You're not alone. To quote a former sub of mine, "An exceptional Domme gives by taking."

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 8:28:38 PM

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Life is inherently selfish.

No one does something out of pure selflessness. They're getting something out of it, thus selfishness.

From the Friends episode with Phoebe trying to do something purely selfless:

Phoebe: I just found a selfless good deed; I went to the park and let a bee sting me.
Joey: How is that a good deed?
Phoebe: Because now the bee gets to look tough in front of his bee friends. The bee is happy and I am not.
Joey: Now you know the bee probably died when he stung you?
Phoebe: Dammit!

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 8:37:16 PM

pg4g

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Even if you do something for others, to no benefit to yourself, you still get the pleasure of knowing you did something for someone else. It's never completely selfless.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 8:51:31 PM

NiceButMeanGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Am I the only one who hopes that his target femdom *does* have a solid streak of selfishness in her? Gawd. A controlled streak, to be sure . . . but it's got to be there, no? How can I please her if she's not selfish enough to accept my pleasing her?

Well, I know I'm selfish up to a point, in that I like to have the final say in what goes on in a dynamic I'm part of. Also, I guess if you can call it selfish, I'm selfish in that I like to be pleased. BUT, I'm not totally selfish in that I care greatly about my submissive's needs and I want to make sure they are met. I absolutely don't want a totally one-way dynamic in that I like to do nice things for him sometimes also, I like to see him happy too. I believe that none of us are totally selfless, regardless of the side of the kneel we're on. If someone were totally selfless, s/he would have no needs that s/he wants to have met. I don't know anyone like that, whether they be Dom/me, sub, switch or vanilla.

NBMG

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 9:01:13 PM

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I admit I'm probably about as selfish as one can get. If it benefits me in some way, yup, I'm gonna do it. Even when I'm doing things for Master, I do them because I like the way it makes me feel in the end. But if some stranger was to ask me to do something for them that I absolutely hate and I don't care about them, then no...I'm gonna be selfish and not do it. I'm just too old to not take what I want.

So yeah....slaves are just as selfish.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 9:37:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
<snip>
The power exchanges, grows, forms a closed loop that spirals higher and higher as trust grows.
It's an amazing thing.
Two people, both getting their needs met, each acting equally selfishly and in so doing, totally selflessly.

That was deep. Really deep.

What I wanted to add on is that D/s and BDSM are subsets of the overall human condition. We are all born selfish, self-centered. Then we grow up with the realization that the world doesn't revolve around us, our wants, our desires, our needs. We reach maturity. Those of us who fail to pass through this initiation into adulthood will suffer from emotionally instability and leave a path of destruction in their wake.

There are a lot of immature people in this world. There are immature Dominants. There are immature submissives. Maturity requires growth. A static D/s relationship where both parties to their dynamic choose to stand still while the rest of life marches onward, will NOT remain stable due to retrogression (i.e., a pulling-backward motion). By the same token, a one-way or one-sided power exchange is not sustainable, nor is it intended to be.

Without the upward spiral which Kana describes, without an unimpeded back-and-forth circulatory motion and unrestricted energy flow, the one who withholds (out of selfishness) causes blockage. Nature hates a void and rushes in to fill it. When a blockage is encountered, systems get backed up or break down completely.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 11:25:15 PM

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I'm with Kana and lw (and a bunch of other posters I can't recall of the top of my head) on this:

Everybody is always selfish with what they do.

Hell, I just spent 6 hours battling to install a whole-house-humidifier. Doing so involved dealing with both plumbing and HVAC, which are the two things I hate doing more than just about anything else in the world and the dry winter air doesn't even bother me in the slightest. In fact, the only person it bothers is my husband, who claims he doesn't sleep well when the furnace runs, which isn't something I'm even a 100% sure I believe. So I just spent 6 hours doing something I hate, to do something that I don't even really believe will make his life actually better.

And I still didn't do it out of selflessness for him. I did it because I'm tired off hearing him complain about the dry air.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/6/2014 12:31:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g
I'm talking extreme selfishness, to the point of narcassim, where they're blind to the fact they're in a sense responsible for the sub's enjoyment, and instead make the sub's life a misery of service with no hope for their needs to be met, and they don't care if the sub leaves, because they'll just get a new one. If the sub's needs are to serve without any recompense, or to be objectified, then that's great and all, but a Dom/me would still need to be mindful of the sub's needs and be willing to adjust their response as appropriate.

When I hear of someone just wanting to use someone to clean the house, not talk to their slave, just get served and ignore them, well that just screams lack of any interest in another human being. And that type of nature leads me to think of some other interesting characters in our history: the nazi treatment of the jews and other minorities. When you start thinking you can honestly use and abuse a person without it being for the person's interest as well - you're just wanting to use another human being - then that worries me.

There is a selfishness in everything we do and say as dominants, as there is in every person, we tend to believe we should be in charge and make the decisions, to a degree we put our needs before that of others, but what you describe is not Dominance. This kind of narcissism is more domestic abuse than a healthy PYL(Pick your label) type of relationship. It is the kind of behavior you see often associated with persons who have very little to no experience, who have an extremely distorted view of what BDSM is about. Yes BDSM is about needs, but if your world is so small that you can only see your own needs, then your world should be the size of one person.

Just because we are dominants, sadists and control freaks it does not mean we are not suppose to be held to the same standards as any relationship. If we would behave with complete and utter disregard to the other person in a vanilla relationship it would be considered abuse physical or emotional. Of course if the submissive wants to be treated as such and the dominant knows this then it is another story. Even in TPE which is often seen as one of the most extreme relationships, there is a negotiated power exchange, it is a consensual non consensual relationship, within the agreed boundaries. But there is a negotiation, a discovery between both parties beforehand, there is an exploration of needs, without it there is no BDSM,no dominance, and certainly not a relationship.

(in reply to pg4g)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/6/2014 12:45:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
Life is inherently selfish.

No one does something out of pure selflessness. They're getting something out of it, thus selfishness.

From the Friends episode with Phoebe trying to do something purely selfless:

Phoebe: I just found a selfless good deed; I went to the park and let a bee sting me.
Joey: How is that a good deed?
Phoebe: Because now the bee gets to look tough in front of his bee friends. The bee is happy and I am not.
Joey: Now you know the bee probably died when he stung you?
Phoebe: Dammit!

This thread reminded Me of the exact same thing.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/6/2014 4:41:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Am I the only one who hopes that his target femdom *does* have a solid streak of selfishness in her? Gawd. A controlled streak, to be sure . . . but it's got to be there, no? How can I please her if she's not selfish enough to accept my pleasing her?

Oy slut, my living room needs painting, get to it ;) (Did that work for you? Slight tingle?)

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/6/2014 7:38:56 AM

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quote:

In another thread we were talking about a master who seemed to ignore his sub, and punished her for continuing to discuss something. He wanted something a certain way, and he didn't seem to want to listen to anything about changing it. It led me to think about something that worries me greatly: what is the relationship between, or difference between, dominance and selfishness?

Or is it a passive aggressive attempt at manipulation on the part of the submissive. Bringing up an issue over and over and over and over and over can be an attempt to wear someone down and get them to give in through sheer exhaustion.
There are people in this world that will not provide input during the decision making process but will harp and snipe over the decisions made.
In a D/s dynamic; the decision making has been delegated to the dominant. The submissive demands it. <grin> Snarking after the decision has been made is being bratty.
Not being privy to the details (and not all that interested, really) my scenario may not be the situation. I just offer an explanation of why a submissive would be punished for bringing up an issue over and over after her dominant had decided how he wanted things.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/6/2014 8:26:39 AM

NiceButMeanGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Am I the only one who hopes that his target femdom *does* have a solid streak of selfishness in her? Gawd. A controlled streak, to be sure . . . but it's got to be there, no? How can I please her if she's not selfish enough to accept my pleasing her?

Oy slut, my living room needs painting, get to it ;) (Did that work for you? Slight tingle?)

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