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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/23/2017 7:19:43 AM

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quote:

As for “Hate Crimes”; it is interesting that if you kill someone because you hate them, it is not considered a “Hate Crime”. It is only a considered to be a “Hate Crime” if you only hate them because they are part of a specific large group of a people that you hate and that was the specific reason you killed them.

Hate crimes are derivative of discrimination. They are the extreme physical manifestation of delusional racial, gender, or sexual preference slander. And the category is a convenience for the Federal prosecutors to step in and remedy long histories of state abuses of justice, especially against black people in the South.

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/23/2017 8:13:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

It was a thought that occurred to me while reading your post and I threw it out to see what others thought, whether it is the "abuse" that causes the "damage" or the "moral custom" that causes the "damage" apart from the act itself? Perhaps without the morality there would be no damage?

Yes, of course, Miles, you are absolutely right. Morality is internalized. It is the cognitive dissonance following the "act" that creates the lingering damage. . . . the guilt, the dirtiness, the destruction of self-esteem. Spot on. The title of this very thread is illustrative, I think.

Thanx, I was wondering what your thoughts on the matter were.

Of course that does not give a green light to abuse, because human morality and "cognitive dissonance" and the damage they may cause is not going away any time soon.

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/23/2017 9:19:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

Actualy the legal concept of "mens rea" is a very important one in judging a crime, and for most crimes the motivations are more than relevant, just think about the difference between the degrees of murder or manslughter. Motivations can also mitigate the sentence or completely justify, as in the case of self defence.
The hate part in hate crimes is a specific aggravation when the motivation for the crime is the victim's personal characteristics, and as everything in a trial has to be demostrated. So if you kill a woman because she owes you money is not a hate crime, if you do because of misogyni it is.

"Motive" is absolutely an essential element of any crime.

That said, how do people know what's going on in someone's head or heart? How do you prove that?

Everyone and his idiot half-brother was sure that Michael Brown got shot because the police officer was a racist until the video of Brown, going for the officer's gun surfaced. Even the racist prick, Eric Holder, couldn't find grounds to charge.

There was a young man in NYC some years ago ... Amadou Diallo. He didn't speak English well and when officers tried to detain him, they thought he was reaching for a gun. They shot him because they thought their lives were in danger. The young man was killed. It was tragic. It was awful. It was a devastating mistake.

But it didn't take long for the cries of "Racism!" to go out. It was the first such case I remember being so blatantly pushed without any indication of a racial element.

How about Tawana Brawley. Screams of racism, improper behavior, rape ... the feces found on her proved to be her own. Careers were ruined (as evidenced by the successful lawsuit against some of the antagonists).

We're too quick to assume we can read minds in this country (and everywhere, really); especially when the "science" on mind reading is not yet "settled".

Michael

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/23/2017 9:38:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
There is no way to write a law that covers all contingencies, one that can look in to hearts and minds, that is why more laws continue to be written and more laws after that. That is why there is a whole system of courts, juries and judges to decide what the laws say and how to apply them in each case.

no but you can write general concepts and guidelines that can be more or less specific, for example in my country where there is a civil law system, where precedents have virtually no value for future sentences, we tend to try to accomplish that writing as much as possible in the statutes and taking away from the judges a lot of discretion, so most laws here are a kind of alghoritm that guides the judge in their decisions.

quote:

Whereas for someone who has love for others in his heart and mind has no need for written laws in his life, he’s not looking for loopholes in the written laws so he can get away with something.

I don't know, even with all the good intentions and honesty in the hearts of people I think civil litigation would be common and required.

quote:

As for “Hate Crimes”; it is interesting that if you kill someone because you hate them, it is not considered a “Hate Crime”. It is only a considered to be a “Hate Crime” if you only hate them because they are part of a specific large group of a people that you hate and that was the specific reason you killed them.

I guess it's more of a common term and not the official one, I'm actually curious if someone knows what terms are used in the various statutes. In the italian laws it's used the word discrimination for example.

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/23/2017 9:56:15 AM

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quote:

We're too quick to assume we can read minds in this country (and everywhere, really); especially when the "science" on mind reading is not yet "settled".

You are correct, Michael. Here and now. But, you contradict your rush to judgment in the OP against the teacher because of her gender. You label the court decision as disgusting even though you were not privy to any discussions between the judge and the lawyers, nor were you privy to any presentencing mental health reports. You simply jumped in and assumed this was a political issue with out regard to the impending tragedy of the defendant's life. Mind reading, indeed.

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/23/2017 10:01:35 AM

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quote:

There was a young man in NYC some years ago ... Amadou Diallo. He didn't speak English well and when officers tried to detain him, they thought he was reaching for a gun. They shot him because they thought their lives were in danger. The young man was killed. It was tragic. It was awful. It was a devastating mistake.

But it didn't take long for the cries of "Racism!" to go out. It was the first such case I remember being so blatantly pushed without any indication of a racial element.

Maybe it was because Diallo was felled by some 42 police bullets on his own door step in the midst of Giuliani's stop and frisk assault on blacks and latinos. Ya think that might have suggested blatant racism? It was plainly evident. That never would have happened in a white neighborhood; it never has.

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/23/2017 10:02:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

Actualy the legal concept of "mens rea" is a very important one in judging a crime, and for most crimes the motivations are more than relevant, just think about the difference between the degrees of murder or manslughter. Motivations can also mitigate the sentence or completely justify, as in the case of self defence.
The hate part in hate crimes is a specific aggravation when the motivation for the crime is the victim's personal characteristics, and as everything in a trial has to be demostrated. So if you kill a woman because she owes you money is not a hate crime, if you do because of misogyni it is.

"Motive" is absolutely an essential element of any crime.

That said, how do people know what's going on in someone's head or heart? How do you prove that?

Everyone and his idiot half-brother was sure that Michael Brown got shot because the police officer was a racist until the video of Brown, going for the officer's gun surfaced. Even the racist prick, Eric Holder, couldn't find grounds to charge.

There was a young man in NYC some years ago ... Amadou Diallo. He didn't speak English well and when officers tried to detain him, they thought he was reaching for a gun. They shot him because they thought their lives were in danger. The young man was killed. It was tragic. It was awful. It was a devastating mistake.

But it didn't take long for the cries of "Racism!" to go out. It was the first such case I remember being so blatantly pushed without any indication of a racial element.

How about Tawana Brawley. Screams of racism, improper behavior, rape ... the feces found on her proved to be her own. Careers were ruined (as evidenced by the successful lawsuit against some of the antagonists).

We're too quick to assume we can read minds in this country (and everywhere, really); especially when the "science" on mind reading is not yet "settled".

Michael

I don't want to go into the specific of anedocts also because a couple cases of false accusation do no invalidate the grivance of the many victims of hate crimes. The fact it's not everytime possible to prove discrimination as the triggering reason doesn't mean it can't be ever proved at all, also because who is ready to kill for some kind of hate to a category is probably vocal about it more than what his/her lawyer might advice, the burden of proof is still on the accuse, so the same way you prove intent or premeditation, they will provide evidence and witnesses... was something said? was something written? was something peculiar done? what where the previous relationship between the victim and the suspect?... and than an evaluation will be done. Dylann Roof wrote a manifesto stating his motives for example.

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/23/2017 10:23:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

The problem is the same as with all laws. Laws cannot look into the hearts and minds of people who “break” them.

I know of one young man, just over the “line” who had sex with his girlfriend who was just under the “line”. But what does the law say? That he is a child molester and should spend time in prison and should be on the sex offender list for the rest of his life.

Was this young man truly a sex offender, someone young girls everywhere should be warned about and who in his 40s and 50s would still be looking for underage girls to have sex with? To me it was just a case of foolish young love and not something to be used to destroy the rest of his life.

When I was in school I use to fanaticize about have sex with a number of my teachers and if they had accommodated me, I would have been extremely pleased and would not have considered myself in the least coerced and would not have thought the teacher should be punished in any way for it. It had nothing to do with them being teachers or authority figures, only that they were there and very attractive.

This not to say that infants should not be protected from perversion, when children have not reached the ability think and reason out consent they should be protected by law. Although how to decide what age that is for each individual is again problematic for a law to do.

Marriage having been mentioned, I will say this about that, I feel that no woman should get married before the age of 23 and no man before 25. Although I know some marriages that have worked at younger ages but that it was a little like they hit the lottery.

i don't think this should be confused with, what is called, the "Romeo and Juliet" situation. We're not talking about *just* an age gap. That position of authority/power matters.

If this woman was so over-whelmed, in love, kind of thing, why was there a second teenager that she was being inappropriate with?

Frankly, you opinion of who might have been "hot" or not having enough worldly experience to know if you were being exploited as a teen to understand the complexities of an authority figure, don't factor into this thing. A testosterone driven BOY isn't supposed to be the basis of case law.

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/23/2017 10:44:53 AM

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quote:

i don't think this should be confused with, what is called, the "Romeo and Juliet" situation. We're not talking about *just* an age gap. That position of authority/power matters.

What makes you so certain that the authority/power issue were not considered by the prosecutor and the judge? We have barely the outlines of information in this case.

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/23/2017 2:20:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Frankly, you opinion of who might have been "hot" or not having enough worldly experience to know if you were being exploited as a teen to understand the complexities of an authority figure, don't factor into this thing. A testosterone driven BOY isn't supposed to be the basis of case law.

Isn't this exactly what this specific law should determinate? If the testosterone driven boy has worldy expereince to know if he is being explited or not... I mean that's exactly the basis for laws on consent.

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/23/2017 2:58:20 PM

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quote:

The fact it's not everytime possible to prove discrimination as the triggering reason doesn't mean it can't be ever proved at all, also because who is ready to kill for some kind of hate to a category is probably vocal about it more than what his/her lawyer might advice, the burden of proof is still on the accuse, so the same way you prove intent or premeditation, they will provide evidence and witnesses... was something said?

Proving intent does not seem to be necessary under US Law, imo.

18 U.S. Code § 249 - Hate crime acts

(a) In General.—

(1)Offenses involving actual or perceived race, color, religion, or national origin.

—Whoever, whether or not acting under color of law, willfully causes bodily injury to any person or, through the use of fire, a firearm, a dangerous weapon, or an explosive or incendiary device, attempts to cause bodily injury to any person, because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, or national origin of any person—

(A) shall be imprisoned not more than 10 years, fined in accordance with this title, or both; and

(B) shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life, fined in accordance with this title, or both, if—
(i) death results from the offense; or
(ii) the offense includes kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill.

(2) Offenses involving actual or perceived religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability.—

(A)In general.—Whoever, whether or not acting under color of law, in any circumstance described in subparagraph (B) or paragraph (3), willfully causes bodily injury to any person or, through the use of fire, a firearm, a dangerous weapon, or an explosive or incendiary device, attempts to cause bodily injury to any person, because of the actual or perceived religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability of any person—
(i) shall be imprisoned not more than 10 years, fined in accordance with this title, or both; and
(ii) shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life, fined in accordance with this title, or both, if—
(I) death results from the offense; or
(II) the offense includes kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill.

(B)Circumstances described.—For purposes of subparagraph (A), the circumstances described in this subparagraph are that—
(i) the conduct described in subparagraph (A) occurs during the course of, or as the result of, the travel of the defendant or the victim—
(I) across a State line or national border; or
(II) using a channel, facility, or instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce;
(ii) the defendant uses a channel, facility, or instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce in connection with the conduct described in subparagraph (A);
(iii) in connection with the conduct described in subparagraph (A), the defendant employs a firearm, dangerous weapon, explosive or incendiary device, or other weapon that has traveled in interstate or foreign commerce; or
(iv) the conduct described in subparagraph (A)—
(I) interferes with commercial or other economic activity in which the victim is engaged at the time of the conduct; or
(II) otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce.

(3)Offenses occurring in the special maritime or territorial jurisdiction of the united states.—
Whoever, within the special maritime or territorial jurisdiction of the United States, engages in conduct described in paragraph (1) or in paragraph (2)(A) (without regard to whether that conduct occurred in a circumstance described in paragraph (2)(B)) shall be subject to the same penalties as prescribed in those paragraphs.

(4)Guidelines.—

All prosecutions conducted by the United States under this section shall be undertaken pursuant to guidelines issued by the Attorney General, or the designee of the Attorney General, to be included in the United States Attorneys’ Manual that shall establish neutral and objective criteria for determining whether a crime was committed because of the actual or perceived status of any person.

SOURCE

< Message edited by vincentML -- 3/23/2017 3:01:53 PM >

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/23/2017 4:04:35 PM

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vincentML I was naming other states of minds that are relevant in general, not specifically to hate crimes. I was just saying as you can prove intent in a murder case without calling mentalist in court to read someone's mind you can also prove the racial or omophobic motivations.

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/23/2017 4:30:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Frankly, you opinion of who might have been "hot" or not having enough worldly experience to know if you were being exploited as a teen to understand the complexities of an authority figure, don't factor into this thing. A testosterone driven BOY isn't supposed to be the basis of case law.

Isn't this exactly what this specific law should determinate? If the testosterone driven boy has worldy expereince to know if he is being explited or not... I mean that's exactly the basis for laws on consent.

the issue is, as with many things---as concerns the government, are people free, or do they need to have a strong hand.

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/23/2017 7:22:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Frankly, you opinion of who might have been "hot" or not having enough worldly experience to know if you were being exploited as a teen to understand the complexities of an authority figure, don't factor into this thing. A testosterone driven BOY isn't supposed to be the basis of case law.

Isn't this exactly what this specific law should determinate? If the testosterone driven boy has worldy expereince to know if he is being explited or not... I mean that's exactly the basis for laws on consent.

the issue is, as with many things---as concerns the government, are people free, or do they need to have a strong hand.

That is an interesting issue. Are people guaranteed freedom with lax laws or is the protection of the law dependent on some apex decider and enforcer??

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/23/2017 10:21:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
What makes you so certain that the authority/power issue were not considered by the prosecutor and the judge? We have barely the outlines of information in this case.

Vincent, I was very specifically responding to the "I'd have wanted to do a teacher in my teens" kind of crap that doesn't help these cases one bit.

It bugs me that we look at these things this way. The 17 year old boy wasn't "lucky" because he was in the situation. This was a grown up that messed with a teenager.

It's the 'position of power' that made this a case in the first place.

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/24/2017 9:38:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
What makes you so certain that the authority/power issue were not considered by the prosecutor and the judge? We have barely the outlines of information in this case.

Vincent, I was very specifically responding to the "I'd have wanted to do a teacher in my teens" kind of crap that doesn't help these cases one bit.

It bugs me that we look at these things this way. The 17 year old boy wasn't "lucky" because he was in the situation. This was a grown up that messed with a teenager.

It's the 'position of power' that made this a case in the first place.

Apologies for my misunderstanding, LP.

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RE: Disgusting Example Of Jurisprudence - 3/24/2017 12:03:31 PM

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Carol and I both agree that this is not a happy ending. But not for the reasons you seem to think.

Both of us think that none of this should've been a crime. If the student was still enrolled at her school (not graduated) I think the teacher should be fired as an administrative action. I see this as "bad business" for the school. I don't see it as a problem for society.

Carol and I both strongly agree that drunk driving ought to be a substantially worse penalty than whatever happened here... irregardless of gender.

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