longwayhome -> RE: Theresa May warns voters of 'coalition of chaos' (4/27/2017 7:25:19 PM)
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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote:
ORIGINAL: longwayhome There certainly a debate to be had about the role and the European Court and who influences it, but I think we are a long way from that at the moment. The whole point of brexit was to break away from the EU and all of its overruling influnces. That would also include the European Courts. The British courts will make future determinations, not those pontificating rissoles in Europe. quote:
ORIGINAL: longwayhome We have a broken democracy without an effective opposition, even one in the shape of a "coalition of chaos". I quite agree. I'm not a lover of everything that the conservatives do but there doesn't seem to be anyone even close to making any sort of headway against them. Corbyn is a joke and labour are in a fragmented mess. The lib-dems are nowhere and that crazy Tim Fallon isn't on the same planet as the rest of us. UKIP are also in disarray and incoherent. The pathetic greens and various independents are nothing more than a spit in the ocean. quote:
ORIGINAL: longwayhome You can't really blame May for wanting to take advantage of that, but you don't have to like it either. I'd just like to see some checks and balances as we slide towards Brexit. A mature democracy taking account of diverse views might be trusted to handle such a life-changing issue with sensitivity and skill. Unfortunately the fractured mess we currently have in most of our political parties does not inspire that sort of confidence. Brexit is not a game and it's too big a deal to give any group of politicians, left or right, a blank cheque. I completely disagree. You young 'uns have not lived a life without the EU sniffing up your ass. Us older ones know what it was like before the dreaded EU. As a trading environment, it's great and works most of the time - it did for the first 2 decades. The problem is, the plutocrats who brought in the Lisbon Treaty through the back door have smashed everything good that was the EU. If we wanted a dick-tator, we could elect one; we don't want one pushing for a European Federal and fiscal United States of Europe that we have absolutely no control over. quote:
ORIGINAL: longwayhome The reason why May cannot show us her hand on what she wants to get from negotiations with the EU is less because it would weaken her position with the EU and more because it would involve opening herself up to criticism at home. Criticism from the many who would not support her vision for Brexit, not because she holds a minority view (who knows what view she holds) but because anyone putting their head above the parapet is likely to have it shot off, whatever position they take. This criticism would be bad enough but the opprobrium she really cannot handle is what would happen if she nailed her colours to the mast, went to Europe and did not deliver everything she was looking for. That is the real reason for the secrecy - you can't fail if you never said what is was you wanted in the first place. Again, I completely disagree. The common myth that the SNP and various MP's like to spout about a "soft" brexit is pure bullshit. The EU Brexit committee and the European Council have categorically stated that we have absolutely no choice and we cannot cherry-pick. The four corner-stones that make up the foundation of the EU is an all-or-nothing hobson's choice. If we don't want free movement of people (and we don't) there's no way we can be in the EU single market - it's not an option open to us. The same with MP's still wanting bits of the EU with the rest being 'outside' - it's not an option. It's not really a case of May hiding stuff; her hands are effectively tied in a truss. The only real thing we can argue the toss over is tarrif levels and possibly a link into the Customs Union. Beyond that, we don't have much say or have any strings to pull. quote:
ORIGINAL: longwayhome We are having to put up with no information, no input, no debate and no democracy just so that Theresa May's political reputation can remain intact and she doesn't have to admit to the British people at a future date that she didn't entirely succeed. British public opinion is hugely unforgiving in this regard and has condemned previous leaders even when they have delivered most but not all that they promised. David Cameron is a case in point. See above. quote:
ORIGINAL: longwayhome Of all the things that concern me about Brexit, the Prime Minister being able to hide from public criticism because she didn't get her way is the least of my worries. We need someone who is willing to stand up, be counted and live with the personal and political consequences. Few are and you have to praise May for even stepping into the Prime Minister's position when so many ran for cover. Unfortunately faced with what is a no-win situation for her, she now is not showing the further courage needed for the job. Protecting her own political back is not acting in anyone's best interest but her own. That's probably the reason cockroach scooted off as fast as he could once he realised he'd lost the referendum. You're right there - it is a no-win situation. And the fact that many criticise her for covering her back is deplorable. As a remoaner, I give her credit for handling the backlash and for pushing as hard as she can to get Brexit done on whatever few crumbs she can wressle from EU pundits. My post wasn't about being pro or anti European. You can take either side in the Brexit debate and still have the views I have expressed. I understand how much you despise the EU and how simple you think all of this is. We need to now to reshape our relationship with Europe. The Brexit vote changed everything. I just don't want to go into that process with a democratic dictatorship. I would prefer to see a political machine with a working government and a working opposition. It did nothing for Blair or Thatcher's government when they had such a large majority they could disregard everybody else including their own party. Even amongst the hard Brexiteers there are so many shades of grey and every other colour. Hard Brexit, soft Brexit, chewy Brexit - I'm sure we can survive "on our own" as can the Scots for that matter. That's not the point. I want to see the kind of challenge that keeps politicians honest and makes for better laws because one person can't write them in a darkened room. I want to see vigorous domestic debate so we come out of the other side of this strengthened not weakened. Everyone who questions the parlous state of UK democracy is not "undemocratically" opposing Brexit. It doesn't matter where May pins her colours on Brexit, when she does so, most of her own party will hate her for it, because there are many camps and none of them have resolved their differences. Just as there are many reasons people voted remain, the same is true of Brexit. There is no way of getting it right so a Prime Minister has to pick a line and be a leader. Despite not being a Conservative voter I had high hopes that May would show the courage on Brexit she implied she would show on her accession to power in terms of a distinctive and different approach to social policy. Now we have her, she is hiding and ducking and diving, doing anything not to show her hand, and, despite all the warm words, she is not tackling issues head on by engaging with people. Although it would have been to Wicked's disappointment, had she engaged with the devolved administrations on Brexit, even if it was insincere and mainly for show, Sturgeon would have failed to get a majority for another independence vote. So any high hope I might have had have been whittled away as May, the idealistic leader has not emerged and May, the pragmatist has proved too brittle to succeed in facing down her domestic challenges. Whatever your view on Brexit, you can hardly feel confidence that an unassailable May majority is going to lead to a better result for the UK.
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