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RE: Libertarian - 12/10/2017 5:11:22 PM

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beats me how you want to continue to say "religious dogma" after its been pointed out to you that non-believers are capable of believing life begins at conception and presumably have been prior to and independent from any religious teaching. theres no way to go back in history and prove otherwise.

im not aware that im saying "libertarians believe" and attempting to speak for all libertarians. im suggesting that its possible to be an adherent of libertarian philosophy and rightly accommodate views that the political party does not have on that "platform."

I believe the republicans, though I don't know this for sure, have a pro-life statement in their platform.

that said however, the people who created the platform for the party could just as easily have been the "pro-life libertarians."

I hope something I said there sticks, because really, im only vaguely clued in on what we're talking about.

(in reply to MercTech)

RE: Libertarian - 12/10/2017 5:17:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
individual liberty
(a fetus is not an individual till born)
Forcing your liberty over my body doesnt work, religious, or political
edited to add
YOUR liberty and YOUR religious freedom, has nothing to do with mine.

Not everyone agrees with that statement. That's a huge part of the issue, Lucy. I'd even be willing to bet that it's the biggest part of the issue.

If that were so it wouldn't be criminal (or murder or whatever) for someone to kill an unborn child without the mother's consent

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RE: Libertarian - 12/10/2017 5:21:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
individual liberty
(a fetus is not an individual till born)
Forcing your liberty over my body doesnt work, religious, or political
edited to add
YOUR liberty and YOUR religious freedom, has nothing to do with mine.

Not everyone agrees with that statement. That's a huge part of the issue, Lucy. I'd even be willing to bet that it's the biggest part of the issue.

talk to the person carrying it.
Now, I know that viability is much earlier... I am not denying that in the slightest,
But either way born is born. living, breathing and separate from the mother.
medical intervention aside.
Neither am I arguing for full term abortions, for convenience.

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RE: Libertarian - 12/10/2017 5:35:42 PM

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Recognizing that having a transplanted uterus is now a viable thing
it wont be long before women become obsolete!!! /sarcasm

One thing...I know that there are women in the republican party, grass roots up to sarah palin and beyond.
How many women have signed or sponsored any bills, legislation,laws regarding womens rights?
How many women lawyers have been involved in deciding what womens health care and birthcontrol is
HOw many women have had input into cutting funding???
Why is that?

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RE: Libertarian - 12/10/2017 5:43:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
individual liberty
(a fetus is not an individual till born)
Forcing your liberty over my body doesnt work, religious, or political
edited to add
YOUR liberty and YOUR religious freedom, has nothing to do with mine.

Not everyone agrees with that statement. That's a huge part of the issue, Lucy. I'd even be willing to bet that it's the biggest part of the issue.

If that were so it wouldn't be criminal (or murder or whatever) for someone to kill an unborn child without the mother's consent

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at there, Bosco.

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RE: Libertarian - 12/10/2017 5:51:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
individual liberty
(a fetus is not an individual till born)
Forcing your liberty over my body doesnt work, religious, or political
edited to add
YOUR liberty and YOUR religious freedom, has nothing to do with mine.

Not everyone agrees with that statement. That's a huge part of the issue, Lucy. I'd even be willing to bet that it's the biggest part of the issue.

talk to the person carrying it.
Now, I know that viability is much earlier... I am not denying that in the slightest,
But either way born is born. living, breathing and separate from the mother.
medical intervention aside.
Neither am I arguing for full term abortions, for convenience.

So, if a pregnant woman says her fetus isn't an individual, then it isn't an individual. But, if a pregnant woman says her fetus is an individual, then it is an individual? That hardly seems law-worthy.

I didn't think you were arguing for full-term abortions or convenience. But, I was putting it out there that many people see an unborn fetus (especially after the age of viability) is an individual, and then taking the life of that fetus would constitute murder, in most cases. The argument that it's a woman's right to her own body is partially a strawman because the other side argues regarding the rights of the fetus (only partially a strawman because there are plenty of those that argue from purely religious stands that a fetus is a human from conception).

I can't even begin to imagine the anguish and suffering to the woman and father (if he's involved) in having to decide whether to abort a desired fetus over health concerns for the pregnant woman. I can only hope that no one I know is ever in that sort of predicament.

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What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Lucylastic)

RE: Libertarian - 12/10/2017 6:30:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
individual liberty
(a fetus is not an individual till born)
Forcing your liberty over my body doesnt work, religious, or political
edited to add
YOUR liberty and YOUR religious freedom, has nothing to do with mine.

Not everyone agrees with that statement. That's a huge part of the issue, Lucy. I'd even be willing to bet that it's the biggest part of the issue.

id agree desi and these sorts of conversations are maddening because the pro-abortion people keep saying the same things over and over and over and hope by sake of sheer repetition that it will make it so.

it can never be about "the baby's body, the baby's liberty, the baby anything" because they either simply don't believe there is a baby, or they believe the mother's desires almost always take precedent over the baby's.

they often fail to see the opposing view and cannot recognize the situation as one in which competing values are at odds with each other.

unfortunately, ultimately, the competing values come down to protecting innocent life or the freedom to kill something they don't want.

given the choice between protecting innocent life, and pretty much anything else, we do well to protect innocent life.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: Libertarian - 12/10/2017 6:36:32 PM

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he's saying that when a baby in the womb is killed, independent of an abortion, its a crime and the person committing it is charged with murder or manslaughter, whatever charge is fitting to the situation.

so in that regard fetuses (BABIES) are individuals before they are born.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: Libertarian - 12/10/2017 6:40:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
he's saying that when a baby in the womb is killed, independent of an abortion, its a crime and the person committing it is charged with murder or manslaughter, whatever charge is fitting to the situation.
so in that regard fetuses (BABIES) are individuals before they are born.

That's what I thought, but, in the case of abortions, it's assumed the pregnant woman consents. So, his comment really isn't germane to the discussion.

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What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to bounty44)

RE: Libertarian - 12/11/2017 1:55:10 AM

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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
he's saying that when a baby in the womb is killed, independent of an abortion, its a crime and the person committing it is charged with murder or manslaughter, whatever charge is fitting to the situation.
so in that regard fetuses (BABIES) are individuals before they are born.

That's what I thought, but, in the case of abortions, it's assumed the pregnant woman consents. So, his comment really isn't germane to the discussion.

Yeah, but if that's true, how can the government prosecute a pregnant lady for getting drunk, every day or bangin' a little heron? It's her choice, right?

Nope. If a pregnant lady were to engage in that kind of behavior, they'd lock her up and confiscate the baby upon birth. Not the lady's choice in that case. I wonder why not?

I mean, it's her body, right? She can do anything she wants with it? Suddenly the government gives a flying fiddler's fuck about the life she's carrying?

Peace,

Michael

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RE: Libertarian - 12/11/2017 3:10:35 AM

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Projectile bullshit reaction.

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RE: Libertarian - 12/11/2017 3:52:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Projectile bullshit reaction.

Once again, well argued, but no.

It's a fact that just about every state or commonwealth in this country will prosecute a woman who gets drunk or high while pregnant.

A thinking person has to ask about the double standard at play, there.

Is it because it's okay for a woman to choose to end the life inside her as long as a member of the AMA "gets their cut"?

Is it because fetuses need to be protected, only in certain instances that are politically expedient for certain groups?

It's a legitimate quandary that doesn't seem to get discussed much.

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RE: Libertarian - 12/11/2017 3:56:29 AM

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theres definitely something inconsistent with the way the government treats babies in the womb as concerns their health and legal status.

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RE: Libertarian - 12/11/2017 4:01:14 AM

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As long as people keep walking around, talking about "a woman's right to choose" and being perfectly okay with the laws I described, it's more than an inconsistency; it's a two-tiered system which borders on hubris.

Peace,

Michael

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RE: Libertarian - 12/11/2017 4:24:23 AM

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I wasnt arguing, I made a statement'

Not so.
https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/substance-use-during-pregnancy
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2017/08/02/states_that_punish_pregnant_women_for_drinking_are_more_likely_to_restrict.html
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/05/usa-health-of-pregnant-women-being-jeopardized-by-punitive-laws/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC419718/
http://jaapl.org/content/43/2/137

Reality is, there are more bills against abortion(an not because of "substance abuse") and more punitive punishments since 2010 than in the previous 40. sensationalising with ignorance, doesnt help anything but add more ignorance to the issue.

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RE: Libertarian - 12/11/2017 4:32:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I wasnt arguing, I made a statement'

Not so.
https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/substance-use-during-pregnancy
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2017/08/02/states_that_punish_pregnant_women_for_drinking_are_more_likely_to_restrict.html
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/05/usa-health-of-pregnant-women-being-jeopardized-by-punitive-laws/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC419718/
http://jaapl.org/content/43/2/137

Reality is, there are more bills against abortion(an not because of "substance abuse") and more punitive punishments since 2010 than in the previous 40. sensationalising with ignorance, doesnt help anything but add more ignorance to the issue.

So, I'm "ignorant" again because you don't have an argument?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic 25 NOV 2017 4:58:11 PM

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

When the answers to a debate argument are:

"You're fat"

"Your clothes suck"

"You're stupid"

"You're a racist"

"Your skin is orange"

The person making such ground-breaking statements has already conceded.

oh thats very true, so very very true

That (and moving goal posts) to the side ...

There are no "bills against" abortion since they don't wipe out abortion. As Lefties like to scream from the rooftops, "abortion" has been "legal" in this country since 1973 (it's not, really, but that's a discussion for a different time).

Sure, there have been bills narrowing the instances/availability of abortion, but none have been "against" abortion by way of "making" it "illegal".

There are a plethora of laws, making it illegal for a pregnant woman to drink more than the equivalent of a couple of (small) glasses of wine and, I'll say, again: I wonder why?

Does this particular pregnant woman have less of a right to choose than one that walks into the "sacred ground" of a Planned Parenthood abortion clinic? It sure seems that way to me. Why is that? I have yet to receive a reasonable answer to that question.

Let's suppose that a woman finds out she's pregnant, thinks "This pregnancy is going to ruin my life", gets "depressed" and goes out for a "night on the town". Suddenly, some "official" gets wind of this and here comes the police, prosecutors, and other sundry lawyers/talking heads/instigators.

Why is a pregnant woman who hasn't enlisted the help of PP or one of the AMA's other representatives a "criminal", as opposed to her opposite, who worships at the altar of PP?

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RE: Libertarian - 12/11/2017 4:58:57 AM

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I said bills not laws, talk about moving goalposts
A bill is not law until its passed and enacted.

Do you mean Alabama, Mississippi, missouri, new york, ohio, oklahoma, tennessee and WV havent tried to enact banning abortions past six weeks this year?

PS the ignorance was for the previous posts by others before you.
by hey whutevah

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RE: Libertarian - 12/11/2017 5:01:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Why is a pregnant woman who hasn't enlisted the help of PP or one of the AMA's other representatives a "criminal", as opposed to her opposite, who worships at the altar of PP?

For exactly the same reason as you don't want her getting an abortion.

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RE: Libertarian - 12/11/2017 5:07:38 AM

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/oklahoma-abortion-law-women-get-father-written-permission-pro-choice-life-planned-parenthood-a7569646.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/05/us-abortion-bill-20-weeks-criminalize-hurt-women
http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/332496-oklahoma-house-declares-abortion-murder
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-gop-late-term-abortion-ban-20171003-story.html
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/politics/house-vote-abortion-after-20-week-ban/index.html
https://www.thecut.com/2017/12/house-gop-tax-plan-contains-anti-abortion-provision.html
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/subjects/abortion/5897
https://qz.com/1144759/tax-bill-in-senate-threatens-abortion-rights-with-the-words-unborn-children/
https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/overview-abortion-laws
http://www.refinery29.com/2017/12/183786/gop-tax-plan-anti-abortion-provision-house-bill
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/us/texas-new-abortion-laws/index.html

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RE: Libertarian - 12/11/2017 5:09:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I said bills not laws, talk about moving goalposts
A bill is not law until its passed and enacted.

Thank you for the brief civics lesson, but once again: a "bill" isn't law, but what I was discussing was the laws, on the books that criminalize a woman "making choices" in her life that seem to fly in the face of "abortion for everyone, if they choose it" position.

The people that vehemently agree with the latter certainly remain silent about the former.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Do you mean Alabama, Mississippi, missouri, new york, ohio, oklahoma, tennessee and WV havent tried to enact banning abortions past six weeks this year?

No. I didn't mean those since that wasn't what I was addressing (there's those goal posts, getting even further away).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
PS the ignorance was for the previous posts by others before you.
by hey whutevah

Yet, the first sentence in your statement was in direct response to something I said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I wasnt arguing, I made a statement'...

Perhaps you could have been a bit more clear?

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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