quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I'm sorry; did you think I said it was a conscious choice?

It certainly isn't for me in terms of everyday matters.

But in terms of BDSM and Ds with my slave, founding those relationships was very much a conscious and purposely thought out process but it flowed from a natural way we found ourselves interacting. We could have stopped the relationship, we could have limited our time together only to specific scene occasions but we chose to live 24/7.

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

have always been submissive...and have always expressed that submission, whether i wished to or not. so i don't agree that the expression of dominance or submission is necessarily a conscious choice, or even something shaped by one's environment. obviously as a child i didn't know the word submissive or what a D/s lifestyle was, i just knew that i was different. couldn't say no to people, couldn't bear to disappoint anyone, desperate to please others no matter the trouble or harm to myself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I'm sorry; did you think I said it was a conscious choice?

It certainly isn't for me in terms of everyday matters.

But in terms of BDSM and Ds with my slave, founding those relationships was very much a conscious and purposely thought out process but it flowed from a natural way we found ourselves interacting. We could have stopped the relationship, we could have limited our time together only to specific scene occasions but we chose to live 24/7.

i hear what you're saying tammyjo, but actually i was responding to this simple comment from LA: My standard answer- orientations are innate while expressions of orientations are learned and shaped

quote:

ORIGINAL: mellomyst

i have known that i was submissive ever since i can remember even it was a game of cops and robbers as kids in the playground (to be caught and told off for being naughty). i was always one to be told what to do and always enjoyed it. so i have always known that i would be trully happy to be controlled, anyone else that was born what they are? i hope noone finds this offensive, its only a question :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

have always been submissive...and have always expressed that submission, whether i wished to or not. so i don't agree that the expression of dominance or submission is necessarily a conscious choice, or even something shaped by one's environment. obviously as a child i didn't know the word submissive or what a D/s lifestyle was, i just knew that i was different. couldn't say no to people, couldn't bear to disappoint anyone, desperate to please others no matter the trouble or harm to myself.

Hmm,
A few thoughts. First, most children have something about them that makes them feel 'different'. I've heard this used as an explanation of all manner of things, and I'm not sure I buy it.

I still wonder about the whole 'always been' thing. It seems to me that, quite often, those experiences of childhood that stand out, the ones we remember, the ones that had the strongest impact, seem to have a large influence on how we define ourselves as adults. We find enjoyment in something, explore it, and make it part of ourselves. And eventually, it defines us. Unless we make a concerted effort to redefine ourselves.

And I will agree it's not exactly a conscious choice. Any more than it's a conscious choice to not like the taste of, say, coffee. But tastes do change, and can be changed through conscious effort. I used to hate beer and wine(hooray wine coolers, fruit punch with kick) but now, I'm a bit of a connoisseur.

And I think that you will agree that one not need to know the word submissive to experience, and find enjoyment in it? And, in finding enjoyment, to seek it out? I think many of our most basic forms of interaction are decided in our pre-verbal state, actually.

Not that I think nature plays no part. We are born with traits. I just think they are less hard and fast tendencies and more prototypical. A state that, should x happen, y will most likely result. Not something as complex as being hard-wired to enjoy lifestyle D/s as a submissive. Especially when one considers that, if Midori can be believed, the whole concept of lifestyle D/s was, until fairly recently, considered a fairly odd thing to want, even in the kink world.

If one looks at the number of folks who were 'born to be a slave' nowadays, and consider that 20 years ago most kinksters thought it was weird...one finds it likely that this is a conditioned response(individual personality taken into account) to a growing cultural phenomenon, rather than a natural inclination in and of itself. Unless this natural condition was somehow rare until recently, or the kinksters of old just weren't being honest with themselves.

A similar argument could be made for someone who was 'born to be a computer programmer' because they remember enjoy playing with computers way back as far as they can remember....

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
Understood.

Don't you hate it when it looks like we are responding to one post but we are really responding to another or to multiple ideas. Bloody computers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria
And I think that you will agree that one not need to know the word submissive to experience, and find enjoyment in it? And, in finding enjoyment, to seek it out? I think many of our most basic forms of interaction are decided in our pre-verbal state, actually.

quote:


If one looks at the number of folks who were 'born to be a slave' nowadays, and consider that 20 years ago most kinksters thought it was weird...one finds it likely that this is a conditioned response(individual personality taken into account) to a growing cultural phenomenon, rather than a natural inclination in and of itself. Unless this natural condition was somehow rare until recently, or the kinksters of old just weren't being honest with themselves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
notice, nowhere did i say i "enjoyed" anything. submission for me has never been about enjoyment. i often hated myself both as a child and a young adult...hated how i was constantly being used and taken advantage of, hated how i couldn't fight for myself or say no like "normal" people. i didn't "enjoy" submitting to people...i just HAD to. it has always been like an instinct for me, like your knee jerking when the doc hits it with the lil hammer. i submitted for no other reason than the fact that i just literally could not NOT submit. and trust me, i made great efforts (always unsuccessful) to be unsubmissive, even to be dominant.

and actually, this is why i say i feel i was just born submissive...or that i'm naturally submissive...because it was never about a choice or pleasure for me.

i hate that it took me almost 19 years to discover that there was something valuable and desireable (to some anyway) about my nature...the years before that were basically misery after misery.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mellomyst

i have known that i was submissive ever since i can remember even it was a game of cops and robbers as kids in the playground (to be caught and told off for being naughty). i was always one to be told what to do and always enjoyed it. so i have always known that i would be trully happy to be controlled, anyone else that was born what they are? i hope noone finds this offensive, its only a question :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave
Tough call. Anybody have numbers polling, say, TES back in '86 on how many members thought they were born subs, and a poll of the same group today? Sometimes an idea is floated, then adopted by people who would not have thought of it themselves, but find that it explains something that they couldn't elucidate for themselves, or otherwise fills a mental "hole" very well. The Internet has certainly helped this take place. This doesn't necessarily make such an idea invalid, though admittedly that sort of thing has a poor track record (ref, suppressed memories, alien abductions, diet plans, etc).

...dave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria
You misunderstand me. My comment had nothing to do with how many people thought/think they were born to be submissive(occasionally, in kink, in the bedroom). It was the born to always submit, born to be a slave, deep submission, lifestyle 24/7 D/s stuff. "Born to be a slave". Not born somewhat more dominant or submissive. Nor born to enjoy D/s sexually.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria

It's just the whole 'I could never say no', 'this is how I've always been', 'I was born to be someone's slave' stuff that seems a bit off to me. A submissive without a proper dominant is either a well-adjusted, equal member of society, or, well, a doormat(or something in between). *dons asbestos*

quote:

A submissive without a proper dominant is either a well-adjusted, equal member of society, or, well, a doormat(or something in between). *dons asbestos*