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The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 7:40:21 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		I have heard it stated by many that the best of Dominants are those who have been is positions of submission first or those who have agreed to submission in order to learn the "other side". It makes me wonder if this is a goal that can honestly ever be accomplished though. If a person is a Dominant at their core, how can they ever get into the mindframe of submission. While they can agree to be tied to a cross and flogged, that is agreement at a physical level. How though, can they get their mind into the same place where a submissive pulls her/his strength from?

I have mentioned this before on these boards, but for me, there is a point in play where I hit a wall. When my body and mind are screaming NO, NO, NO. I CAN'T!!!! It is at that moment that I have to go deeper inside of myself to my core and focus on my submission....my core desire to please. If that core was not there....I would be able to go no further. So if a person is Dominant at their core....what would they draw upon at that moment? Can they possibly ever really know what it feels like to have that drive?

I was always curious about what it would be like to top. My ex Master allowed me to experiment a bit one night. Physically.....I went through the actions...but emotionally I can tell you quite honestly....I still have no idea what it would be like to be in the mindset of a Dominant. The experience was very emotionally negative to me. The only thing that I really learned from it was that I CAN NOT switch. So if there are those out there who are like me.....who can not change roles like clothing, then I am quite certain that there are those on the other side of the fence who can't either. So how then would they ever really know what being submissive is all about. It is kind of like childbirth to me, I can explain the sensation and the emotions of it in great graphic detail....but until you have experienced it you can never honestly know what it is like.

I can and do understand that it could be helpful for a Dominant to experience the physical things that he expects his submissive to endure. But that doesn't even begin to touch upon the mental experience of being submissive. To me it is kind of the same as expecting a man to know what it feels like to be a woman...or vice versa.

Any thoughts???

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 8:05:05 AM   
Kiaban


Posts: 124
Joined: 7/11/2004
Status: offline 		I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head in speaking of mind set.
An easy example: If someone pulls my hair I want to punch them, if my girl's hair is pulled she often melts, so how I would feel/view or react to something still tells me nothing about her feelings and reactions to the same stimuli.
One step futher even subs vary greatly in how things effect them so what one feels about a certain action can be completely different than another.
So what we are left with is the best dominants are the ones who take the time to get know thier sub/slaves ..I mean really know them because after all they are individuals.

If someone argues that the sub is there to serve the dom and hence you don't have to know how they [the sub] feels, I would still say that whatever the motive, knowing someone deeply gives you a better chance of getting what you really want out of them wether its for thier own good or yours.

Kiaban

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 9:23:52 AM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Interesting question..I honestly believe it is an advantage for a Dominant, M or F to have experienced submission at some level. I compare this to like eating fine food, I think you are a better chef or cook if you have eaten the food you are preparing..silly analogy maybe, but you get the idea. Whether it's full blown as if they started out as a sub, or even if it's as a bedroom subby, only experiencing the physical part, I do see some benefit. I think when most folks start out (I'm sure this is debatable), they are not positive what their role is...sure they may feel Dominant, and they truely may be, but to be absolutely sure is a tough thing to nail down until you have experienced it. Starting as a sub will do two things..it will likely smack you up side of the head on what your role actually is, and if it's destined to be as a Dominant, you will have that experience to tap into the rest of your life. Myself, I had a brief encounter with trying to submit in the beginning, but it was obvious very soon on that even if I could pull off the physical part, I couldn't do the heart and soul end of it. I am certain I would have been a great "topping from the bottom" example..lol. But in the start of someone's venture into the lifestyle I do think this is easier. I have know some Dominants who wanted to experience the submissive point of view, via trying it, later on after they were very well settled in their Dom/me role. I suppose they did actually get a little bit of insite of the "other side", but not enough to get a real grasp of it. I still think it's noble that they made the attempt however and is as valuable of a lesson as the one you stated you learned by trying to be a top. Had you not tried, perhaps you would have always wondered and at least you do understand that it really is work, even on just the physical side, to Top.

Yes, I do have the same feeling as you that it would to tough to bounce back and forth...as if they were a switch (hmm..hence the name). Many can, or at least is seems..so if that is possible...good for them. And honestly, I am sure I could still switch on the physical side of it and it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Would I be able to do so emotionally, nope, tried that and failed, that's why in our particular relationship Shifted and I are both Dominants. We could pull off the kink, but that was where it stopped short. Did we enjoy it? I'll take the 5th there so as not to incriminate myself (winks). We understand that although we could likely switch physically, neither of us could truely submit to the other, not to the point of actually letting go of that control. It's not a trust issue, it's simply not in our nature. BUT...by having both experienced that side, even if not to the point as you say, where you go deep inside your core...I still feel the experience is something crucial to understanding our sub(s) point of view even if just the physical part...and there is perhaps a part of it that touches on the emotional part as well, even if it's just the understanding of what is is we can't do, that they can.

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 9:28:21 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with Kiaban, additionally as an example, that doesn't seem dominant, but it is experience:

Growing up, I was asswhipped alot....usually with a leather horse cinch doubled, my beggings were begged, my pleadings were pleaded my submissions were submitted. The day I came of age, I bounced my father thru the dining room table. No more-- so I am pretty sure I am not submissive.

However; I know how far I can go before mental or physical damage occurs (painsluts: DO NOT contact me......not my gig). I know the feeling of warm, relaxed, expressed, soothing, expenditure and calm rightness, I just aint gonna go thru that to get there. I am fine at levels way below that wantoness. I also understand needs for ambiance and warmup....... Don't start busting furniture right out of the chute or drive the bobsled straight to hell, either. Can't talk there you say? (never met one who couldn't.........but) I can tell by the thickness of your drool how much you have left. So life experience gives you dimension, no matter the source. And for those who ask the inevitable question; NO this is not what got me into this life.....that's a whole nother story.
So the point is, in essence...depth and breadth of experience are what makes the better doms. The BEST dom may be one who just gives you a slap and a tickle............it's a continuum. (God, the latin who coined that word shoulda took out a patent) he would be a millionaire off this site alone...........

Sincerely,
Ron
edited because I can't spell.............lol

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 5/15/2005 9:39:04 AM >

(in reply to Kiaban)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 10:10:59 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		There can be a lot of benefits to understanding how to bottom or submit personally.

But I don't think it's anything NECESSARY for a dominant to experience in order to be very functional and expert.

There is the fallacy that just because someone bottoms or submits means they have any REAL understanding of what *I* experience when I bottom or submit. Heck, no submissive processes things the same as any other submissive.

But there are benefits for a lot of people and it can help give them a lot of perspective.

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 11:01:20 AM   
Kiaban


Posts: 124
Joined: 7/11/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

There can be a lot of benefits to understanding how to bottom or submit personally.

But I don't think it's anything NECESSARY for a dominant to experience in order to be very functional and expert.

There is the fallacy that just because someone bottoms or submits means they have any REAL understanding of what *I* experience when I bottom or submit. Heck, no submissive processes things the same as any other submissive.

But there are benefits for a lot of people and it can help give them a lot of perspective.

For me I suppose I can only say that "perspective" here is the key. Mine would be different from that of "a" submissive or more imporantly the one I am dealing with at the moment, just the same as perspectives can differ from submissive to submissive on alot of issue depending on thier make up.
In my mind its better to take the time to develop strong communication so you understand thier perspective [which would differ from yours in the same situation] and proceed from there.
This doesn't apply to people who want to see what its like for them to submit, only the notion that it makes you a better dom.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 11:06:57 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I can and do understand that it could be helpful for a Dominant to experience the physical things that he expects his submissive to endure. But that doesn't even begin to touch upon the mental experience of being submissive. To me it is kind of the same as expecting a man to know what it feels like to be a woman...or vice versa.


Hmm... I'm not sure why this is in Ask A Master... doesn't it apply to all dominants?

I believe I have discussed my perspective of how I tried to experience submission a few times and how the experience helped me grow and strenghted the dominant aspects within me. This is perhaps the best version of this account in a thread entitled Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes?

I reread my response there and find it useful to repost:

I found myself in situations where I really tried hard to submit but couldn't. My motivation for doing it was to get my maso desires fulfilled. (Most of the people who read my post know I'm a sadistic Domme with a strong maso streak.) I didn't laugh. Actually, I didn't say anything. I internalised it and obviously, in those situations, the relationship didn't work. At the time, I didn’t really define myself as anything but for the sake of argument, lets say I was living a switch lifestyle.

However, there is one instance in which I did submit. Under very special circumstances, I allowed myself to submit completely and totally to one. To give you a little context, it was a very dark period in my life and he came around and breathed life back into me and help me build back my inner strength and confidence. When I was back to the fiery steadfast tigress that he knew I was, he winked and said, “you don’t need me the way you used to, but I still want to be part of your life”. Today, he is one of my best friends and I have so much love for him. I am so much more confident in manifesting my dominance because of him. I don’t feel I need to attempt submission to get the maso desires fulfilled in me. I have learned to separate D/s from S&M. My “style of dominance” is very much influenced by him. I often compare my experience with him to a Martial arts type Sensei and student.

He, on the other hand, is a hard wired Dominant who, as an adult, never once questioned on which side of the D/s equation he stood on. I think some of us need guidance in discovering facets of ourselves. In his particular situation, he was subjected to dominance through his childhood via strict (read abusive) boarding school, domineering elders, etc. He had to fight to survive and this built his strength.

My point is that we dominants discover and develop our dominance in various ways. It doesn’t matter how we get to where we are, it only matters that our journey was a path of self discovery and gave us inner strength and wisdom, made us respectful of others, their needs and their limits and most importantly, taught us that true dominance is manifested inherently, it is not imposed.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 11:13:06 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

An easy example: If someone pulls my hair I want to punch them, if my girl's hair is pulled she often melts, so how I would feel/view or react to something still tells me nothing about her feelings and reactions to the same stimuli.


Kiaban,

It shouldn't and wouldn't feel the same. A person's "hard wiring" generates a different response to the same stimuli, especially in the area of erotic stimulation. A spanking at the same intensity and duration applied to a submissive will sexually arose him/her. The same spanking applied to a Dominant can generate emotions ranging from anger to laughter.

The best example is provided by submissives who go very deep into sub space. So deep that ALL painful stimuli are routed directly to sexual stimulation. The ultimate "orgasm of death"; the woman giving birth reporting the birth as an "orgasmic event". There is no way you will know the sensation's affect.

Mentoring or experiencing a sensation will not let you know what the submissive is feeling. Therefore "seeing how it feels" loses the problem solving experimental value. However, as a Dom, you can use what you know of your sub as a guide, especially when buying a new toy. Say you know a flogger of a certain weight causes a certain level of response. The Dom can hit himself at the same intensity on his leg/arm,etc. and know it's sting. Swing a new flogger at the same intensity, and compare sensations. The Dom will then know if the new flogger will produce more or less sensation. But he still won't know how the sensation feels on to his sub.

You don't need the perspective. It's really not obtainable. Better would be to have sessions specifically for the purpose of studying the reactions of a sub to different intensity levels of different "toys". As each is used communicate. Doing this will provide almost quantitative references during the next scene.


(in reply to Kiaban)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 11:23:57 AM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

You don't need the perspective. It's really not obtainable.


I disagree. I do believe that it all depends how empathetic you are. And in any case, it's not black & white, it's a question of perspective.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 11:48:57 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		I know I like my dominant peopel to at least have had a go at submitting. Just to see. I don't care if they've done it for a day or a year, I just like them to give it a try. For the same reason, honestly, that I gave topping a go. Just to see what it felt like and if it did anything for me it all.

It didn't and I don't understand why it does for some people, but now I -know-. I prefer someone try so that he/she -knows-.

It isn't that I think he/she can necesiarially gain perspective, I just prefer being with people who aren't so tied to their role that they are unwilling to move out of it. I find that sometimes people who refuse to switch, even for an hour just to give it a shot, are the people who tend to be most....rigid...about "real" and "true" people. SOMETIMES, not always.

That said, even if my partners have -never- switched, it is important to me that they are willing to try the tools they're going to use on me on themselves. This isn't becuase I want them to know "what it feels like" as such. Rather, I want them to know exactly what they do to produce each effect and what happens when they do something else. It's a safety thign for me.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 11:51:22 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

it's a question of perspective.


Exactly. But it is black and white from the perspective. Just like coffee from the same coffee pot only needs one teaspoon of sugar your coffee, three for someone else, zero for mine, yet we ALL had a GREAT cup of coffee. You don't know what it tastes like to me, you can't. If I put one teaspoon of sugar in mine and try it, I'll only know how the one spoon of sugar changed the way the coffee tasted to me, not how it tastes to you.

I'd guess you'd have to take the same example from the adding milk perspective to make it even more black & white.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 12:11:22 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

it's a question of perspective.


Exactly. But it is black and white from the perspective.


I disagree. My perspective is that it is not black and white from the perspective.

I think that though we cannot know exactly what the other person is going through, we can have an idea. And depending on our ability to put ourselves into other people's shoes, our empathic abilities, we can gain a better perspective. And that perspective is variable.

If you are saying that I will never completely understand what is going on in my submissive's head, you are right. But the simple fact that I understood some of my submissives better then others is an indication that it is not black and white.

I believe that through communication and active listening, we can come to understand the other. The fact that the degree of understanding varies makes it not black and white.

The same goes for experiencing dominance. Rapier was my mentor. My style of dominance has been very much influenced by him. Does he understand everything that goes on in my head when I am domming? Nope. But he probably understands it a lot better then you, right?

I think we could have an incredible philosophical debate about whether or not people can truly understand one another and in the end, we would probably all agree that is impossible on a complete level.

Therefore, I think it is more interesting to see what are ways that we can gain the perspectives of others. And I believe that was the spirit of erin's initial post.

- LA



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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 12:37:09 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

Hmm... I'm not sure why this is in Ask A Master... doesn't it apply to all dominants?


Actually LadyAngelika, it was merely because there is no Ask a Dominant board. I really did wrestle with exactly where to place this. I kind of thought it might not really be exactly right for the General Board seeing as it really is directed at the perspective of Dominants both male and female, although certainly not exclusively as I would also love to hear the thoughts on this from other subs/slaves/switches. That left me with a choice of two boards realistically...this one and Ask a Mistress. Due to the fact that I have only been in relationships with male dominants up to this point...this one just felt more natural to me. Anyway, certainly no offense intended to anyone.

That said....I am very much enjoying all of the responses so far and they have given me some new perspectives that I had not previously considered. Will check back in after I chew on it a bit.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 12:46:03 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Anyway, certainly no offense intended to anyone.


I'm not offended in the least. I actually am not in agreement with the gender division of the Dominant boards. Or at the very least, there should be an extra Dominant board, though I'm not so sure more categories is what we need.

I rarely come into Ask A Master, though I'm breaking that rule this week.

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 12:54:26 PM   
Kiaban


Posts: 124
Joined: 7/11/2004
Status: offline 		Well as with most subjects you pretty much got both sides of it which is great.
I still say that saying to be the best dom you had to have been a sub to know what its like , or at least have given it a go...is a bit like saying for a woman to please a man she has to have either been one or at least given it a go.Just don't buy it, communication and observation are still very powerful tools.

Kiaban

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 12:57:45 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

I know I like my dominant peopel to at least have had a go at submitting. Just to see. I don't care if they've done it for a day or a year, I just like them to give it a try. For the same reason, honestly, that I gave topping a go. Just to see what it felt like and if it did anything for me it all.

It didn't and I don't understand why it does for some people, but now I -know-. I prefer someone try so that he/she -knows-.

It isn't that I think he/she can necesiarially gain perspective, I just prefer being with people who aren't so tied to their role that they are unwilling to move out of it. I find that sometimes people who refuse to switch, even for an hour just to give it a shot, are the people who tend to be most....rigid...about "real" and "true" people. SOMETIMES, not always.

That said, even if my partners have -never- switched, it is important to me that they are willing to try the tools they're going to use on me on themselves. This isn't becuase I want them to know "what it feels like" as such. Rather, I want them to know exactly what they do to produce each effect and what happens when they do something else. It's a safety thign for me.


I understand what you are saying perverseangelic and it makes a lot of sense.

Communication is about exposing one another to our points of view. If there was no point in doing so, we wouldn't do it. To tell someone "try this" is because we want to share an experience. Of course we will experience it differently, but we will more then likely be closer aligned then if we didn't attempt to share similar experiences.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to perverseangelic)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 12:58:57 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kiaban

Well as with most subjects you pretty much got both sides of it which is great.
I still say that saying to be the best dom you had to have been a sub to know what its like , or at least have given it a go...is a bit like saying for a woman to please a man she has to have either been one or at least given it a go.Just don't buy it, communication and observation are still very powerful tools.

Kiaban


Well said Kiaban.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Kiaban)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 1:05:12 PM   
SecretDomme


Posts: 152
Joined: 1/21/2004
Status: offline 		I've never agreed with the idea that to be a good dominant you first need to be a sub. I personally don't think I could ever get into the submissive mindset, and therefore could never truly experience submission at the level a sub would. I have done things to myself that I do with a sub, to see how certain things feel and to learn more about the safety issues involved, but the act of submission was not involved at those times.

I have spent a lot of time talking to submissives and probing them for information on their mindset and feelings when they are submitting. I really work hard to get to know a sub when I am in a relationship with one, on both a physical and emotional level. That is how I choose to become a better dominant.

Be well A/all,
Julie

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 2:51:45 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

Just like coffee from the same coffee pot only needs one teaspoon of sugar your coffee, three for someone else, zero for mine, yet we ALL had a GREAT cup of coffee. You don't know what it tastes like to me, you can't.
Killer point Mercnbeth, I had never thought about that aspect. Even if you did (which would be amazing anyway) manage to get into the mindset...as you say, it would never be the same.

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 4:16:09 PM   
Raphael


Posts: 263
Joined: 5/10/2005
Status: offline 		Empathy is needed.

If someone manages to 'be a sub' and then 'be a master' I would guess that would help with the empathy.

I don't think it's necessary, however.

Then again, maybe the reason it's not necessary is because we've all been there. As small children, even if not after. Do you still remember when your parents were like gods?


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