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RE: Third speak... - 5/30/2007 2:48:35 PM   
zindyslave


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Well, what I was saying was that I will say A/all, or Everyone, or I will capitalize You when speaking to a Dom/me. I am still new to most of the ways to respect everyone and I don't know everyway to do so.

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RE: Third speak... - 5/30/2007 2:52:58 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Generally the best way is to respect the person, not the orientation, and use proper grammar.  Would you capitalize someone's name because they were a homosexual instead of a heterosexual?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to zindyslave)
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RE: Third speak... - 5/30/2007 3:01:15 PM   
beargonewild


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I've found that I will try to follow the type of speech the original poster had used. Though I will use Master/slave or Dom/sub when stating a point or thought but only in the general sense without being too specific.
    I personally find Third speak confusing to follow sometimes, yet I don't use this form when corresponding to a dom or master in person or in a pvt message. I didn't with my former master and probably will never will. But this is my choice for me.

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Third speak... - 5/30/2007 3:10:01 PM   
LeatherBentOne


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From what I understand, speaking in third person is a way that a slave makes herself insignificant, whether it be at the Master's request or not.  They are seen as property and using third person reinforces that they are insignificant other than to please their Master.  I have heard this in real time from those who hold tight to ritual and protocol.

For me, if I were a Mistress (I ID as a Femme Domme) and I owned a slave, I dont think Id require 3rd person, but who's to say.  Its a personal preference and who am I to judge what may be right for others.

(in reply to TigressFL)
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RE: Third speak... - 5/30/2007 3:11:35 PM   
slavegirljoy


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What i write in these forums and in my journals is Expressive writing and, therefor, proper grammar is not important.  Expressing my views is what's important.  It can be challenging to get your feelings expressed in this type of format.  One way that helps me to express how i feel about myself, as a slave, in the context of my life in BDSM, is to use only lowercase letters when referring to myself and using only uppercase letters when referring to my Master.  To me, it demonstrates, in a written form, the way i feel about myself and my Master.  i am small and He is large, to me.   When i am referring to Him and i, together, then i use the slash, as in U/us and W/we.
 
i'm not writing a term paper or a business letter.  i am writing the way i feel.  i couldn't care less if it breaks the "Rules of Grammar".  i mean, isn't "breaking the rules" a big part of the attraction to BDSM, anyway?  It sure is to me.  Give me another rule to break and i'm happy.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

< Message edited by slavegirljoy -- 5/30/2007 3:18:41 PM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Third speak... - 5/30/2007 3:12:00 PM   
Areflectionofyou


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this life is about personal choices...to each his/her own . my humble opinion is just this ...why worry about something so small as others talking/writing in 3rd person. Its "their" personal choice. Sorry just my opinion.
petjenny

(in reply to zindyslave)
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RE: Third speak... - 5/30/2007 3:51:42 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetnurseBBW
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
i understand that some people dislike the use of certain forms of expressive writing/speaking that are used by others on the forums and/or in person.  So what!
 The question was not "Do you like or dislike the use of speaking in the 3rd person and why?"  The question was "Why does it occur?"
quote:

ORIGINAL: zindyslave
Why do submissives speak in the third person? Is it something their Master/Mistresses want? If so then why? If not for their Dom/Domme, why do it?

this slave wishes that people would stick to answering the question.  It's annoying to see an interesting question posed and then have to read a lot of opinions that offer nothing to answering the question asked.  
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

I agree. Whose to judge what works for some. Some do it some don't. Everyone has their own reasons for doing it.
Yes, but apparently those reasons - no matter what they are or how important they are to you - are not valid enough for some others who find what you do annoying.  You decide to do something for WHATEVER reason and there will be those whose day it just ruins.  Never made any sense to me at all. 
 
Awhile back there was a thread about what was called "slashy speak" (W/we, U/us, etc.).  Some of the responses were amazing to me.  Here is a list of some of what was said about using this type of capitalization/phrasing:

*can't stand it
*silly
*infantile
*ridiculous
*juvenile
*annoying
*pathetic
*childish
*distasteful
*obnoxious
*BS
*it sucks
*game-playing
*doms who ask for it are "highly insecure"
*shows "fake authority"
*not worthy of any attempt to read/understand it
*hate it
*loathe it

All this to describe this:  W/we

Wow - wonder what the opinions would be if it was a real issue or something that really mattered one iota.  The same goes for third-person speak to me.  i do use the "slashy speak" because i WANT to.  No other reason - don't care how annoying some find it.  If you skip every post that i (and others) write because of it, you're missing out on alot.  It's not that difficult to read.  It's the same letter twice in a row.  Not that hard at all. Just pretend the slash isn't there.  i'm still trying to remember when i was guaranteed that no one was ever going to annoy me by anything they do.  As some are fond of saying, it's "pixels on a screen."  It's a slash or it's third-person speech.  Not that big a deal to me as i go through life.  i think if it makes the poster happy, God bless 'em......slave luci 


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RE: Third speak... - 5/30/2007 5:58:38 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
i'm not writing a term paper or a business letter.  i am writing the way i feel.  i couldn't care less if it breaks the "Rules of Grammar".  i mean, isn't "breaking the rules" a big part of the attraction to BDSM, anyway?  It sure is to me.  Give me another rule to break and i'm happy.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

Joy I'm confused, I was giving Zindy some advice on how to communicate with others in the scene when having discussions.

And breaking the rules might be a part of why a lot of people in the scene (although that's really just letting the rules control you in a different way), it's certainly not the attraction for me.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Third speak... - 5/30/2007 7:34:39 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
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From: North Carolina, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Joy I'm confused, I was giving Zindy some advice on how to communicate with others in the scene when having discussions.

And breaking the rules might be a part of why a lot of people in the scene (although that's really just letting the rules control you in a different way), it's certainly not the attraction for me.


i thought this was discussion that was open to all participants about the way some subs/slaves choose to use 3rd person speach and then it went into also discussing the practice of using UC/lc writing.  You posted a comment (i didn't know it was meant to be a private comment between just the two of you) and it is a comment that is made frequently about the use of "proper grammar".

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Generally the best way is to respect the person, not the orientation, and use proper grammar.  Would you capitalize someone's name because they were a homosexual instead of a heterosexual?

 
i disagree with the idea that proper grammar needs to be used always and wanted to voice my opinion about it, so i chose to post my comment.  i thought this was a place to feel free to express yourself any way that feels right, to exchange ideas and differing viewpoints.  i have a different viewpoint and wanted to express it.
 
For some of us, using the UC/lc form of written expression is what feels right and allows us to be ourselves but, it seems to really bother others, simply because it doesn't go along with what they like.  i don't know why that should be such a problem or such a big deal.  i haven't seen anyone say that Everyone should write that way.  So, why not just let people express theirselves any way they like?  Why not just let free-thought flow out onto these pages any way it happens to come out and not get all picky about the grammar? 
 
To me, the way something is written is often just as powerful as what words were written.  For me, to write my name or the personal pronoun for my name using a capital letter would feel wrong and i won't do it.  So, if how i express myself here is annoying to some readers, so be it. 
 
If someone chooses to use a capital letter for their name, i respect that or if they choose to use a lowercase letter, i respect that, if they choose to write in the 3rd person, i respect that.  i'm interested, not in their writing skills or speaking ability but, in what they have to say and in my being able to share my thoughts, as well, any way i choose.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Third speak... - 5/30/2007 7:39:45 PM   
CelticPrince


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melissa,

Well said! your comments are right on the mark.

CP

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RE: Third speak... - 5/30/2007 7:39:53 PM   
zindyslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Generally the best way is to respect the person, not the orientation, and use proper grammar.  Would you capitalize someone's name because they were a homosexual instead of a heterosexual?



I respect everyone I talk with, I just learned that when talking to a mixed audience to use the slash speech, and I try to use proper grammer, sometimes I can't get the words out I want but I do my best, I am sorry if it offends anyone but I use it at times usually when in a chat room tho, usually not in the forums.


_____________________________

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Only when you see the invisible can you do the impossible.

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RE: Third speak... - 5/30/2007 10:06:42 PM   
fairerthanshe


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Greetings all,

I have watched this thread and read it through a few times trying to absorb the differing opinions of third person speech.  More than once, I began to reply and could not do so without anger.  One of the problems I found most disconcerting was the notion that third is a product of Gor.  Since I am one of the foremost culprits of third on the Gorean side, it was difficult not to feel as though the posts were aimed at me.  For the most part, I do write in third person.  In the past, when I was owned by my ex-husband, I spoke in third to him on a daily basis.  That was years before I ever learned of Gor.

<in third>
When fairer discovered CM and subsequently the Gorean forum, she again used the third person as a way to communicate.  It is as natural to her as brushing one's teeth might be to others.  There are some people with whom she uses third person exclusively to communicate and one in particular who requires third person Shakespearean English.  It is a delight to communicate with that Master!  While it is fairer's choice to communicate in third, it is due to her desire to eliminate the "I" statements from her writing.  If one will read the above paragraph, one will notice that there are eight times this word occurs in seven sentences. 

fairer has many friends in real life who are slaves who communicate with their Masters in third - they are required to do so.  This girl often uses third in communication with both slaves and Free in real life.  It is only when she is asked not to use this form that she returns to first person. 

While there are many differing opinions about third person speech, its uses and purposes, and the drives behind such,  it seems rather harsh to openly condemn someone simply because of the voice in which they choose to communicate.  After all, can't we all just get along...

well wishes,

fairer than she


_____________________________

The Nuclear Bomb of Awesome, rockin' the MoFo Hawk, still a bad-ass with a bouncy attitude, and spreading joy as a predator in Hello Kitty panties

Recently honored with membership in the West Coast Assholes

(in reply to zindyslave)
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RE: Third speak... - 5/30/2007 10:07:57 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
You posted a comment (i didn't know it was meant to be a private comment between just the two of you) and it is a comment that is made frequently about the use of "proper grammar".

No, it wasn't meant to be a private comment- that would have been sent privately.

But it was a direct comment to her.  Your reply to me did not seem to be directly related to what I was saying to Zindy, thus I was confused.

And so asked for clarification.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
i disagree with the idea that proper grammar needs to be used always and wanted to voice my opinion about it, so i chose to post my comment.

The sad part is that I never said proper grammar should ALWAYS be used.  The specific context, which I clarified in my response to you, was in discussions with mixed orientations of people.

I disagree with the idea that proper grammar always needs to be used as well.  I simply have never seen why a persons relationship orientation has anything to do with it.
quote:


i thought this was a place to feel free to express yourself any way that feels right, to exchange ideas and differing viewpoints.  i have a different viewpoint and wanted to express it.

Of course, but it seemed to come out of left field, and to disagree with a point that was never actually made to begin with.  Again, my confusion was aroused and so I asked for clarification.
quote:


For some of us, using the UC/lc form of written expression is what feels right and allows us to be ourselves but, it seems to really bother others, simply because it doesn't go along with what they like.

Well for me personally, it's because it's more difficult to read and I've never seen anyone actually use it consistently, what it has to do with someone's personal relationship orientation, OR tell me how to address switches.

My guess is that if it were easy to read, used on a consistent basis and explained how it should be used with switches, I'd find it much more agreeable.
quote:


i don't know why that should be such a problem or such a big deal.  i haven't seen anyone say that Everyone should write that way.  So, why not just let people express theirselves any way they like?  Why not just let free-thought flow out onto these pages any way it happens to come out and not get all picky about the grammar? 

Because there comes a point where grammar becomes too irritating and inconsistent and hinders positive communication.
quote:


To me, the way something is written is often just as powerful as what words were written.  For me, to write my name or the personal pronoun for my name using a capital letter would feel wrong and i won't do it.  So, if how i express myself here is annoying to some readers, so be it. 

Indeed.  This is amusing to read after your stance about breaking rules- you seem to enjoy these rules quite a lot!
quote:


If someone chooses to use a capital letter for their name, i respect that or if they choose to use a lowercase letter, i respect that, if they choose to write in the 3rd person, i respect that.  i'm interested, not in their writing skills or speaking ability but, in what they have to say and in my being able to share my thoughts, as well, any way i choose.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

Of course, but again, in a written media, someone's writing skills can greatly hinder or enhance how well someone actually manages to communicate.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
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RE: Third speak... - 5/30/2007 10:23:50 PM   
MistressNoName


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Someone pointed out that contrary to popular belief, 3rd person speech did not begin with Gor...It has it's roots in the "Old Guard" leather tradition...particularly the gay leather tradition. Very high protocol, as it was pointed out. I just wanted to reiterate that b/c I think knowing the history of WIIT

MWD is most important. Also, just good to have correct information.

I too have found its use confusing from time to time, mostly when people use it incorrectly or inconsistently. But have also found that for some subs/slaves it reinforces a sense of being owned. And some owners agree with this view and therefore require its use.

MNN

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Third speak... - 5/30/2007 10:54:52 PM   
slavegirljoy


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From: North Carolina, USA
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Actually, my comments weren't directed to you, specifically.  They were just a general statement.  Your posting, with the comment about using proper grammar, which i have seen expressed by others, prompted me to post my comments about not feeling the need to follow the rules of grammar when writing in an expressive style. 
 
i don't know why there is so much animosity about this.  It's just a difference in opinion and writing style.
 
If the way i choose to express myself here is confusing or difficult to read, it is easy enough to skip over my postings and ignore them.
 
Just because i do enjoy breaking the rules and redefining the rules about how i choose to do things, doesn't mean that i don't have any rules or that i never follow any rules.  Rules have their place but, i still enjoy bending them, sometimes to the breaking point.  That keeps things interesting and exciting for me.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

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RE: Third speak... - 5/31/2007 6:40:07 AM   
dawntreader


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Greetings fairer,
 
Well said, and after having to speak in third myself in "certain circumstances" i will say it is something one gets used to .
 
What i noticed about reading your two seperate paragraphs in the 1st and 3rd,
for me anyway, the paragraph in third kinda flowed almost like poetry. i definitely think there is an art to 3rd so that it doesn't sound confusing, an art i believe you have "mastered"

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to fairerthanshe)
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RE: Third speak... - 5/31/2007 7:03:25 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
Actually, my comments weren't directed to you, specifically.  They were just a general statement.  Your posting, with the comment about using proper grammar, which i have seen expressed by others, prompted me to post my comments about not feeling the need to follow the rules of grammar when writing in an expressive style. 

Ah this makes things clear, thanks.
quote:


i don't know why there is so much animosity about this.  It's just a difference in opinion and writing style.

There's no animosity about this at all on my part.  Frankly I'm slightly irked at your snideness regarding the "I thought this was an open forum" type remarks, but such is life.  Hardly animosity.
quote:


If the way i choose to express myself here is confusing or difficult to read, it is easy enough to skip over my postings and ignore them.

Absolutely.  But you were explaining why you liked using it, and I was explaining why a lot of people don't like as well as letting you know that the reasons you THINK a lot of people don't like it actually aren't the actual reasons at all.
quote:


Just because i do enjoy breaking the rules and redefining the rules about how i choose to do things, doesn't mean that i don't have any rules or that i never follow any rules.  Rules have their place but, i still enjoy bending them, sometimes to the breaking point.  That keeps things interesting and exciting for me.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

Which is fine.  But you should see the contradiction and situation of irony it places you in when you spit out a statement about liking breaking rules and then follow it up by passionately explaining exactly why you love following a particular set of rules.  It's better not to set yourself up for the contradiction to begin with and just be open- you follow the rules you want to follow and you ignore the rules you want to ignore.  What almost everyone does really.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
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RE: Third speak... - 5/31/2007 7:23:14 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
Choose as many as you like:
I don't get...(Watersports, Caning, Flogging, Breath Play, Cross Dressing, Public Nudity, Bondage, Collars, Bi-Sexuality, Latex, Bukkake, Cuffs, Needled Play, Gor, Body Hair, Poly, Shackles, Titles, BBW, Crawling, Adult Babies, Human Toilets, Homosexually, Threesomes, Third Person Speech, Piercing, Humiliation, Food Play, Shaving, Messy Sex, Enemas, Crawling, Shibiri, Photography, Butt Plugs, Leather, Tattoos, Furies)

Hope I didn't forget anything or anyone.

Trying to understand one particular activity within any relationship to "get it", is impossible. Isolating one part of the dynamic, either activity or interaction, for discussion or dissection does not provide any insight. It isn't necessary to have experience in any/all activities in order to discuss them. It's possible to do on a clinical level, but it doesn't explain or answer the question - Why?

That is something you can't know without experience. I would guess that their are many who react with disgust to many of the menu list of items I provided and complete the sentence with a few of those particular activities. In a relationship they are not done as menu items, they are a "cell" within the body that forms the relationship dynamic. People who do things have reasons that make sense for them, they don't think about anything other than the relationship in total. It applies whether that relationship spans years, or hours. In the context of pleasing themselves or pleasing their partner/partners; the activity serves that pleasure. That's the answer.

Of course if you have a need to increase your self esteem and the only way to do it is to criticize and apply disgust with someone else's dynamic, go for it. I doubt it will impact anyone or cause them to change that aspect to conform to your standards. However if you want to understand and learn you have to experience the whole. Seeing one cell under a microscope doesn't provide much insight regarding the total body. Wanting to know, in isolation, how one thing "works" is not going to provide a clear answer. You have to see it all, in context, in action, up close and personal.

We use third person speech, we also use or partake in many other of those activities listed. Isolating one for discussion will tell you very little about us, and even less about our relationship dynamic.

I reference this old poem as a consideration:

quote:


The Blind Man and the Elephant
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant~(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation~Might satisfy his mind.


The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side, ~ At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant ~ Is very like a wall!"


The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, "Ho! what have we here?
So very round and smooth and sharp? ~ To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant ~ Is very like a spear!"


The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands, ~ Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant ~ Is very like a snake!"


The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like ~ Is mighty plain," quoth her;
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant ~ Is very like a tree!"


The Fifth who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most; ~ Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant ~ Is very like a fan!"


The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail ~ That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant ~ Is very like a rope!


And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion ~ Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right ~ And all were in the wrong!


Moral
So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!


-John Godfrey Saxe


 
Source: http://www.mcps.k12.md.us/curriculum/socialStd/grade7/india/Blind_elephant.html


Anyone wanting to visit our "elephant" let us know, you are welcome!
 
And if you don't, we're good with that too.


< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 5/31/2007 8:20:11 AM >

(in reply to dawntreader)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Third speak... - 5/31/2007 8:14:55 AM   
dawntreader


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Merc,
 
i do plan on visiting your "elephant"!
 
One question i have really learned to dislike is "Why (anything" ? What does it matter as to why? i won't even ask "Why can't we all get along or agree to disagree"? The answer is so obvious!
 
For myself, i focus on acceptance and appreciation...there is so much beauty in just being and ALL the facets that entails. Ofcourse i am human and still trying to find tolerance for those that continually whine about "Why..."

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Third speak... - 5/31/2007 11:26:17 AM   
fairerthanshe


Posts: 3035
Joined: 1/18/2007
Status: offline
Greetings dawn,

Those were awfully nice things you said and she appreciates them greatly.

may she wish you well,

fairer than she


_____________________________

The Nuclear Bomb of Awesome, rockin' the MoFo Hawk, still a bad-ass with a bouncy attitude, and spreading joy as a predator in Hello Kitty panties

Recently honored with membership in the West Coast Assholes

(in reply to dawntreader)
Profile   Post #: 80
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