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RE: Third speak... - 6/1/2007 11:32:02 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fairerthanshe

This tac is not for everyone. There are those whose sole function on CM is to play the role of contentious poster - some to the right and some to the left and some who are not your average mother....- it is their right to do so. From these people can be gained great insight and wisdom or just wicked things to say to people that completely go over their heads and one realizes the extent of this insipid wasteland. Does fairer read the posts written by these types? Oh my goodness, YES! That's the best part - getting to read all the nasty little outbursts and jabs, until one appears who stops all the falderal. Then the boys and girls find someone else upon which to use their venom and all is well.

Wow, from someone who's got no dog in this fight, I'm sorry that it appears (to me) that you seem to be taking the thread personally.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

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The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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(in reply to fairerthanshe)

RE: Third speak... - 6/1/2007 11:35:42 AM

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Greetings Master Aswad,

It's nice to be thought of as 'generally intelligible'.

fairer will have to look into the lipogram style - it sounds like it would be a lot of fun!

well wishes,

fairer than she

_____________________________

The Nuclear Bomb of Awesome, rockin' the MoFo Hawk, still a bad-ass with a bouncy attitude, and spreading joy as a predator in Hello Kitty panties

Recently honored with membership in the West Coast Assholes

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Third speak... - 6/1/2007 11:44:42 AM

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Aswad, your remarks on the connection between language and consciousness are apt, but seem overlook the impact of 'personal symbology'. Any time a submissive makes a conscious choice to alter a pattern of behavior to the requirements of a dom, they are making a personal symbolic connection between submission and the new pattern of behavior. So, even when the pattern is not grossly or structurally different than what they are used to, they are creating their own personal symbology of submission in making this change, and reinforcing it in use. In addition, while in general 'third speak' may have no distinctly submissive meaning, in practice many subs use or are required to use specific self-referrents that do. For instance, saying 'this girl' does contain a status marker, as does 'this slave', 'your humble servant', 'this worthless piece of crap', etc. Defining specific terms of self-reference can be an effective tool in shaping a submissive's self-perception, for better or worse. Further, defining referrences to the dominant can reinforce certain attitudes about relative status ('What may this slave do for her Master?). I would suggest, however, that no such tools are very effective by themselves, and all of them, under the best of circumstances, reach a point of saturation where they become just another habit. An underlying reality of dominance and submission must be maintained in other ways, or such symbols will lose their power.

(in reply to zindyslave)

RE: Third speak... - 6/1/2007 1:17:14 PM

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Usually, in my experience, its a way to make a sub concentrate less on themselves. I dont like it, personally. It makes it harder to read and requires too much attention into every word I say.

(in reply to zindyslave)

RE: Third speak... - 6/1/2007 1:54:49 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

i rarely ever speak to my Master using any reference to myself. It wasn't anything that He required or that i had to learn. It was just my natural way of speaking to Him, that was totally different from the way that i speak to everyone else, although it is very much the way that i used to speak to customers when i was waitressing.

That's pretty much exactly what I had in mind, save perhaps for the exceptions. Thank you for sharing your expeciences. This also quite well illustrates what I meant by changing the actual pattern; i.e. the communication centers on the external world, not the slave, who is generally absent from the conversation as a topic. I would presume that gives a noticeable ego-reducing effect over time; of course, it also has a certain element of objectification to it, at least to my mind.

As for the exceptions, the first one could be paraphrased as "Is there anything you require/want?" or somesuch. The latter ones are, of course, harder to do without impacting communication, but could be done, if one was so inclined. But such is, of course, between you and your Master.

quote:

Actually, i like the feeling so much, that sometimes i wish i could stay in it always, but that notion also scares me a little. But, then again, my Master tells me that i like being scared. He would know.

It's probably doable, per se, but I'd consider talking it over with a KAP to get a rundown on the implications. And, of course, it depends on whether your Master approves; it may well have too much of the intended effect over time for his tastes. I don't know him, so I couldn't comment.

quote:

For me, "subspace" is very much an Altered State of Consciousness and my Master can put me in it very quickly. When i am in that state, i do find myself automatically using 3rd speak, such as, "Master, Your slave thanks You" and "Master, Your slave is feeling very dizzy (or tingly or ......).

Spending extended periods of time in an altered state of consciousness can be exhilarating, and may apparently be a good thing (certain oriental monks spend the bulk of their lives in altered states). As for the way of speaking, one can, if so desired, alter the patterns there further, but I'm guessing that would be a PM topic. Either way, very interesting.

quote:

He does seem to enjoy it when i do speak in 3rd person to Him because [...] He realizes that when i do this He has accomplished putting me into that subspace state of mind and He likes that.

Feedback is always nice, whether verbal, non-verbal or (in this case) meta-verbal.

Thank you again for sharing.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

RE: Third speak... - 6/1/2007 2:18:28 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fairerthanshe

It's nice to be thought of as 'generally intelligible'.

As I'm sure (hoping?) you're aware, what I meant is, a bit more verbosely:

Most of the time (generally), your use of TPS does not impair the intelligibility of your writing.

Just thought I'd make it clear, in case it wasn't. I find the vast majority of your posts an enjoyable and coherent contribution- TPS or no TPS.

quote:

fairer will have to look into the lipogram style - it sounds like it would be a lot of fun!

A lipogram is simply a writing restriction where one or more letters of the alphabet is banned.

The most famous example of this is "Gadsby", by Ernest Vincent Wright, which is a story of about 50.000 words or so, none of which contain the letter "e", which is the most common letter in the English language. Counting the occurences in this paragraph alone, there are 24, if my quick count is correct.

Depending on the specific tradition, names may sometimes spelled outright, and references to the missing letter itself may sometimes be made; such is compromising it a bit, but I'm no purist.

Example with no e's: "An author might find that it is most frustrating to follow such constraints as that of a lipogram, for many or most words such an author would put into what is said will lack a composition that is compliant with this tradition and its constraints."

All in all, a potentially very entertaining thing for those of us who enjoy that kind of thing.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to fairerthanshe)

RE: Third speak... - 6/1/2007 2:31:29 PM

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Greetings Master Aswad,

fairer understood your intent and thanks you for the kind words. It is a pleasure to converse with you in this medium as she truly enjoys your writing, both the style and content thereof.

It would take her far too long to reply in lipogram without automatically choosing the letter "z" to eliminate - lol - and she realizes that even that presents a challenge.

well wishes,

fairer than she

_____________________________

The Nuclear Bomb of Awesome, rockin' the MoFo Hawk, still a bad-ass with a bouncy attitude, and spreading joy as a predator in Hello Kitty panties

Recently honored with membership in the West Coast Assholes

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Third speak... - 6/1/2007 2:39:05 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CitizenCane

Aswad, your remarks on the connection between language and consciousness are apt, but seem overlook the impact of 'personal symbology'.

I distinctly remember a post of mine in this thread that starts out with a comment about rituals etc.; that acknowledges that side of things, although it doesn't cover it in great detail.

quote:

In addition, while in general 'third speak' may have no distinctly submissive meaning, in practice many subs use or are required to use specific self-referrents that do. For instance, saying 'this girl' does contain a status marker, as does 'this slave', 'your humble servant', 'this worthless piece of crap', etc.

Of course, and I agree that would be a more directly useful TPS convention.

Depending on how it is done, however, this can aggravate the readability problem.

quote:

Defining specific terms of self-reference can be an effective tool in shaping a submissive's self-perception, for better or worse.

Redefining the term of self-reference doesn't change the way the mind forms the thought, or the concept; in this regard, it is no different than correcting a stubborn spelling- or grammar-error, by consistently forcing awareness of it until it is gone.

However, it can serve as a proxy or catalyst for the mental effort made to change the pattern involved. I'm just saying that there are (IMO) better ways of achieving that goal.

quote:

Further, defining referrences to the dominant can reinforce certain attitudes about relative status ('What may this slave do for her Master?). I would suggest, however, that no such tools are very effective by themselves, and all of them, under the best of circumstances, reach a point of saturation where they become just another habit.

That's my point, that these things are mastered, then forgotten. If I were so inclined, I could converse with no first-person reference to myself, and even use honorifics and their complements, with no change to the thought processes.

A friend of mine sometimes starts speaking of himself in the royal plural, because he thinks it's hilariously funny. So I go along with the joke, and mockingly abase myself linguistically. It's a game, and it's easy.

This is why I suggested that there are other ways to achieve the desired goals that may be much more effective, and also offer clearer communication.

quote:

An underlying reality of dominance and submission must be maintained in other ways, or such symbols will lose their power.

I always thought the sum was the important bit. Small things here and there add up, and while one maintains the reality of it, those things that add up serve to accumulate and (in time) deepen the reality of it. Depending on how you use them, of course.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to CitizenCane)

RE: Third speak... - 6/1/2007 4:13:58 PM

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Joined: 5/25/2007
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As for myself, I've never used it or been asked to use it. But hey, it is that uniqueness and individuality that makes this lifestyle so great! Whatever works for that individual in their relationship is all that really matters.

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Third speak... - 6/1/2007 5:20:48 PM

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Joined: 4/11/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Vini, Vidi, Vici....

isn't that i came, i saw, i conquered in latin? dang i took that in highschool many years ago.

minnetar

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Third speak... - 6/1/2007 7:01:22 PM

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fairer, I agree with Aswad on that one your posts are easy to read, I noticed that the other day, sorry I didn't say so sooner. Reading your post was kind of like reading a story in the fact that it flowed smoothly. You got your point across with ease. That is the best way I can explain how it was for me when I read it.

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Only when you see the invisible can you do the impossible.

(in reply to minnetar)

RE: Third speak... - 6/1/2007 7:55:01 PM

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i have noticed that people who are well versed in Gorean don't always speak in third person when it comes to the bdsm areas. i think i recall a few of yours.

minnetar

(in reply to fairerthanshe)

RE: Third speak... - 6/1/2007 8:16:22 PM

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Greetings zindy,

Thank you for the compliments.

well wishes,

fairer than she

_____________________________

The Nuclear Bomb of Awesome, rockin' the MoFo Hawk, still a bad-ass with a bouncy attitude, and spreading joy as a predator in Hello Kitty panties

Recently honored with membership in the West Coast Assholes

(in reply to zindyslave)

RE: Third speak... - 6/1/2007 11:59:59 PM

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Joined: 11/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

i have noticed that people who are well versed in Gorean don't always speak in third person when it comes to the bdsm areas. i think i recall a few of yours.

minnetar

Third speak is not a Gorean concept~

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to minnetar)

RE: Third speak... - 6/2/2007 3:01:30 AM

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Re: The Gorean Connection.
For what it’s worth, in the books third person speech is required of slaves during slave training, and sometimes at other times as a discipline; I don’t remember slaves being required to speak that way as a matter of course over long periods of time. On the other hand, I still haven’t read all the books. In any case, I don’t think we can blame John Norman for originating the custom.

dcnovice

“This poster can't resist pointing out that dear Queen Victoria (who was definitely not a sub) referred to herself in the third person in all her official correspondence. She would say "The Queen thinks . . ." or what have you. Miss Manners always uses the third person too; this poster is not sure why.

This poster recognizes that both these examples are irrelevant to the thread, but he couldn't resist sharing them.”

Actually, We think it has some relevance. The former example is the “royal we” and while Victoria was famous for it, she did not invent it either.

livenlearn

“Actually, it really has nothing at all to do with being Gorean; it started in chat rooms as a way of identifying who was slave and who was not.”

That is not where it began either.

Sinergy

“I imagine the reasoning behind doing it is similar to what recruits experience in boot camp, when they are taught to speak entirely in third person to their superiors. There is a demeaning quality and a dehumanization associated with the loss of the "I" experience, as well as an elevation of their superior officer. To whit, the officer is a person, the recruit is simply "the recruit."”

This military usage seems to be the earliest example of third person speech used in this manner, at least in the English speaking world. I could, however, be ignorant of earlier examples.

And I think Synergy hit the nail on the head with

“There is a demeaning quality and a dehumanization associated with the loss of the "I" experience”

Or as another put it:

velvetears

“It's done to produce a certain mindset - the slave doesn't own herself, her master does, so she has no right to say "I, me, mine, my" it would imply ownership of themselves. Speaking third constantly reminds them of their place as a slave”

and you can usually count on LuckyAlbatross to have something insightful to say…

LuckyAlbatross

“But speaking in third person doesn't take away a sense of self, it just redefines "self." Speaking in third person doesn't take away ego, it just restructures it.”

SunNMoon

“I don't have Greek, but I can ask my friend who studies New Testament. But I’m guessing that it is following off of the Hebrew (Semitic language group).”

I am not clear on this, but it sounds as if you are suggesting that Greek is a Semitic language. It isn’t. It’s Indo-European.

If I have misunderstood what you were trying to say, I apologize.

Aswad

“It wouldn't be hard to construct a specific sociolect for use in BDSM”

Hard to construct, maybe not. Hard to get more than a dozen people using it, yes.
By the way Aswad, much of what you say here gives food for thought.

Lucius Alexander

House of the Palindromedary

< Message edited by Lucius -- 6/2/2007 3:03:37 AM >

(in reply to dawntreader)

RE: Third speak... - 6/2/2007 7:08:52 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucius

Hard to construct, maybe not. Hard to get more than a dozen people using it, yes.
By the way Aswad, much of what you say here gives food for thought.

As for getting more than a dozen people using something... I think an English sociolect could catch on, if done properly, just as the TPS and C/case bits caught on some places. Constructing a sociolect of Japanese, however, would be a different beast entirely. I'll be doing it anyway, once I get around to finding someone who can teach me the particular variant I'm interested in (e.g. "kokoro" vs "shin"), since I've already got a handful of people who want to give that a go, and will really need to know that language at some point to better communicate with the head of the MA lineage I study.

And my thanks for your compliment (and those of others, of course; I do take notice and smile).

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Lucius)

RE: Third speak... - 6/3/2007 1:29:21 AM

ayip

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Because its one more way to crucify the English language online? I/i C/can't U/understand W/why !
I don't understand how the online stuttering ever gained such popularity either.

Honestly, if so much attention has to be paid to how a person speaks online why not place that attention on constructing an understandable sentence?

I've seen subs/slaves that use TPS say it slows them down and makes them think thru their words. But so much attention is put on this girl or that girl or the girl sitting trying to make sense to anyone else while she murders any element of proper grammatical sentence construction until what shes trying to say gets lost. Not to mention a chore to decipher. Ok, so it makes a sub/slave think in nonperson'ish. As a temporary thing to get their head in the right place it makes sense but for the long haul? After a while wouldn't it become a habit? The effect loses steam and the mental translation of this girl becomes I or me?

This girl went to the club with that girl and we ran into those girls then this girl said hi to that girl and that girl said hi to that other girl but this girl doesn't really like her so she didn't say hi but said hi to this girl and that girl. This girl found a table but it only had enough chairs for this girl and this girl and this girl.. oh, an that girl but not that girl but this girl doesn't like that girl so this girl... yadda yadda yadda and so on.

Help !!!!!!!!

ayip

PS: I found the cool edit button. I wanted to add I'm not poking fun at anyone who uses TPS. I know that was an extreme example and that was on purpose to example how difficult it can be to decipher for those of us who don't. Even in the more moderate form.

< Message edited by ayip -- 6/3/2007 1:36:24 AM >

(in reply to zindyslave)

RE: Third speak... - 6/3/2007 3:36:08 AM

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99.9% of the time it is gorean in nature. I personally don't care for gor, so I use "thirdspeak" as a way to weed out the undesirables. Don't get me wrong...gor works for some people and that is fine...just not my thing.

Master BRD

(in reply to zindyslave)

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