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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 6:32:31 PM   
Grlwithboy


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quote:


It seems you're saying either you're a D or and s and if you're a D you can't have the frame of mind of an s when in the s position. And you're speaking in general-- impossible is at the very least too broad of a word, and I would think difficult isn't even it.


Yes. Unlike a lot of people, I didn't think this meant that the experience of the position was without merit, I just think it's different. Period. As for whether it's impossible or hard or easy, I guess that's subjective. If you really think you experienced your submission in a way that's completely going to overlay your submissive's experience of submission - why would you not go back to it as often as she did? Why did you ever stop doing it? Why don't you dream about it and crave it?  Do you see what I mean? The strength of need and desire IS going to affect the nature of what transpires.

I talk to my subs and my slaves a lot to find out exactly what the nature of their experience is - far more often than I go back to my days not in the drivers' seat. I can't say I never go back to that mentally either to dredge up something of use either.

quote:



It seems you're bringing some other beef into this discussion.... The pomposity you perceive is a misunderstanding on your part, and I have not claimed that there is a single mindset. There are many... I have only advocated that you find yours.

  I'll be frank - chafes the hell out of me that you list a bunch of things that you've decided Madrabbit (or anyone else thinking about it) is going to get out of his service experience. I have no idea what he's going to get out of it - only that there'll probably be something of use for him is likely. I had no idea what I'd get out of mine. Finding that out for myself was one of the best feelings, and I'm actually really glad I wasn't so sure of my orientation so that other people's decisions about my mindset could roll off me more easily.


quote:



Now that was rather presumptuous, and essentially seems like an unwarranted personal attack. I have merely advocated an experience that allows one to better comprehend what they are saying when you listen to them.




You don't seem to be advocating nearly as much as insisting this is the best way to go. People's reasons for not submitting to learn are varied and complicated - sometimes really crappy ones and those people tend to announce themselves. I don't think that people who "submit to learn" are worthy of more honor, or immune from being Dominant out of some kind of personal insecurity they take out on subs, which you seem to imply. 

I'm glad I did what I did. I gravitate toward people who can see the value in it, but I don't use that to beat up people who don't or look down on people who don't.

I know for a fact that my slave is never going to try on the dominant position. Nobody's whining at him to do so.

< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 7/18/2007 6:33:29 PM >

(in reply to AdventurousLife)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 6:36:11 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Tut, tut... all this shouting...!  Self control is an excellent Dom trait - guess you're not expected to learn that during a period of service....  
 


and so is Open-Mindedness...



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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 6:38:24 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Tut, tut... all this shouting...!  Self control is an excellent Dom trait - guess you're not expected to learn that during a period of service....  
 


oh btw.. this is a READING FORUM... so.. don't know where you get all this shouting..... unless of course you are reading to yourself...

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 6:49:11 PM   
AdventurousLife


Posts: 72
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy
I just think it's different. Period. .... in a way that's completely going to overlay your submissive's experience of submission


Of course different, every experience is different. As is every person. Thus the experience won't overlay perfectly. But I see a big difference between experiencing the frame of mind and the idea that you can not get into that frame of mind if you're "a dominant" which is what you seemed to be saying.

quote:

I'll be frank - chafes the hell out of me that you list a bunch of things that you've decided Madrabbit (or anyone else thinking about it) is going to get out of his service experience.


Except that I didn't. I gave an answer to the question- my answer. I don't think Madrabbit (For instance) is seeking the experience I'm describing. (EG: I'm talking about submission, not service.) But he quoted the question, and I gave an answer to the question-- because he said he didn't have one and I had one for my perspective.



< Message edited by AdventurousLife -- 7/18/2007 7:12:01 PM >

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 6:55:45 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

You are so fucking glorious when you get bitchy!  No wonder I love you!


You know Michael.. I am thinking that bitchy women is going to bring out the very best you in!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 7:13:33 PM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdventurousLife
In my opinion, you are giving the BDSM Top/Bottom, lifestyle, "kinky sex" perspective.


I have 26 years in the lifestyle, 20 of those 24/7 live-in TPE, don't try and teach your grandfather to suck eggs over whether I am speaking about the D/s dynamic or not.

If you want to read into what I said that I made some claim about switches not having value, then I suggest you learn to make less assumptions.

I stated they where diffrent, not that there was any less value. After all, regardless of what the dynamics are in a relationship of any kind, if it works for those in it then it has value.

The mear fact that a switch CAN switch wether they do or not in any particular instance means they will process that experience diffrently than someone who can't. So a switch doesn't get the same experience as a Dom, or a sub. The internal struggles and processes will be diffrent, as the mindset has diffrent componants.



_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to AdventurousLife)
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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 7:46:48 PM   
KnightofMists


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Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I have a question for those who see doing some bottoming, apprenticing, or anything short of springing out fully formed ( I love that!) is bad/weak/wrong/whatever.

What is it  you feel you would lose if you did? 


Credibility.  There are any number of submissives who will look down on a dominant who has bottomed. Any crack in that dominant veneer and you're finished as a dominant in their eyes.

Celeste


Sooooo.... A Dominant is less of a creditable Dominant if they bottom in the eyes of submissives?!  This concept is amusing at best and pathetic at it's worse.

In essense, this concept suggest that for one to be a creditible Dominant one is judged by the standard of the submissives.

mmmmmm A Dominant that has the Courage and Integrity to be one self or a Dominant seeking creditibility in the eyes of submissives....

I wonder who is the more Dominant personality.

mmmmmmm So I suppose it's rather Dominant to seek creditibility in the eyes of submissives.   <<< sarcasm

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 7/18/2007 8:27:22 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 8:02:27 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdventurousLife

Thus just as someone without a slave is not a Master, a Dominant is not dominant unless he's in that position in a Ds relationship. Its not a personality trait, its a position in a relationship. It may be the only position one want to play, and one may have personality traits that lead them to be good at that position... but I think this is the source of the confusion.

People confuse the position for the person.



And some people confuse the person with the position.

A Master or Dominant can be a Position...

A Person can have a Dominant Personality.

A Dominant Personality can be in a Dominant position within many sitautions.  In fact, a Dominant Personality will be inherently motivated to be in positions of Dominance.  This is NOT to say that a Dominant Personality can't choose to be in a submissive position.  Infact, many Dominant Personalities make such choices all the time.

A Submissive Personallity can be in a Submissive positon within many situations.  In fact, a Submissive Personality will be inherently motivated to be in postions of submission.  This is NOT to say that a Submissive Personality can't choose to be in a Dominant position.  In fact, many Submissive Personalities make such choices all the time.



_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to AdventurousLife)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 8:05:40 PM   
KnightofMists


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Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion
I personally don't think a dom can ever be a sub


There are Doms, there are subs and then there are switches



got to love people and their boxes

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 8:05:44 PM   
Grlwithboy


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Joined: 2/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I have a question for those who see doing some bottoming, apprenticing, or anything short of springing out fully formed ( I love that!) is bad/weak/wrong/whatever.

What is it  you feel you would lose if you did? 


Credibility.  There are any number of submissives who will look down on a dominant who has bottomed. Any crack in that dominant veneer and you're finished as a dominant in their eyes.

Celeste


Sooooo.... A Dominant is less of a creditable Dominant if they bottom in the eyes of submissives?!  This concept is amusing at best and pathetic at it's worse.

In essense, this concept suggest that for one to be a creditible Dominant one is judged by the standard of the submissives.

mmmmmm A Dominant that has the Courage and Integrity to be one self or a Dominant seeking creditibility in the eyes of submissives....

I wonder who is the more Dominant personality.

mmmmmmm So I suppose it's rather Dominant to seek creditibility in the eyes of submissives.


I don't think she's advocating this. I think she's identifying a rather disturbing fact within segements of the community. I think a lot of people honestly don't care, or don't feel that people who would find this some kind of "loss of face" are worth dignifying the opinions of by being bothered, but I agree that this stigma keeps a lot of people's activity on the other side in the closet.  If I'm wrong I'm sure she can correct me. The OP asked a "why do you think" question and this is being floated as a possible reason, one which makes sense of a kind to me.

I used to be more concerned with what people might think, globally. Not to the point where it kept me from doing what I wanted, but probably making some of my choices fraught with tension I laugh over at this point.



(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 8:24:05 PM   
TallDominantMast


Posts: 17
Joined: 5/20/2007
Status: offline 		I tried it once, many years ago.  I was bored.  My response was 'This girl is whacking me.  I don't like this.  Do people actually enjoy this?  I must talk to all future subs to discover whether or not they actually enjoy it.  What time is it?  I wonder if I can make it to the milkshake place?  If I leave in the next 15 minutes, I think I can.  What flavor should I get?'  Suffice to say, it wasn't really my thing.  

(in reply to Grlwithboy)
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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 8:25:45 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		::snipped for brevity::

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy


I don't think she's advocating this. I think she's identifying a rather disturbing fact within segements of the community.

If I'm wrong I'm sure she can correct me. The OP asked a "why do you think" question and this is being floated as a possible reason, one which makes sense of a kind to me.


No need for any correction as you are spot on. I did try to word my response so it was obvious, but apparently I failed in that endeavor but for the select few. My bad for being unclear and I take responsiblity for my poor word choice.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Grlwithboy)
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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 8:29:06 PM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline 		And that's just it.  You tried it, it wasn't for you.  You move on. 
But you tried it.. You were open to the experience and that is the bottom line.

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A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

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Profile   Post #: 173
RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 8:29:35 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy


I don't think she's advocating this. I think she's identifying a rather disturbing fact within segements of the community.


nor did I suggest that she was...  she identified a disturbing fact...... and I only showed the irrationality of this disturbing fact.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Grlwithboy)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 8:32:39 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

My bad for being unclear and I take responsiblity for my poor word choice.

Celeste


I saw no lack of clarity.... you rather precisely communicated that "SOME" held this view and you never indicated that you agreed with such an opinion.  Only pointed out the existence of such an opinion.  nothing more and nothing less....




_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/18/2007 9:00:41 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

My bad for being unclear and I take responsiblity for my poor word choice.

Celeste


I saw no lack of clarity.... you rather precisely communicated that "SOME" held this view and you never indicated that you agreed with such an opinion.  Only pointed out the existence of such an opinion.  nothing more and nothing less....





Thank you, Knight. That was my intention. However, after reading the wording of Michael's question I should either not have answered it or worded my response in such a way as to indicate that it was a view held by some, but not held by me personally. I would have avoided some rather nasty emails in my box had I taken a bit more care in my response, so.. lesson learned.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/19/2007 1:03:29 AM   
AdventurousLife


Posts: 72
Status: offline
quote:



I have 26 years in the lifestyle, 20 of those 24/7 live-in TPE, don't try and teach your grandfather to suck eggs over whether I am speaking about the D/s dynamic or not.


Jesus christ.

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/19/2007 1:07:53 AM   
AdventurousLife


Posts: 72
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDominantMast

I tried it once, many years ago. I was bored. My response was 'This girl is whacking me. I don't like this. Do people actually enjoy this? I must talk to all future subs to discover whether or not they actually enjoy it. What time is it? I wonder if I can make it to the milkshake place? If I leave in the next 15 minutes, I think I can. What flavor should I get?' Suffice to say, it wasn't really my thing.



We still seem to be stuck on the difference between bottoming and submitting.

Sounds like you bottomed. You are not describing a situation where you gave someone control and submitted to their will.

You were the bottom in a flogging scene, not the submissive in a Ds relationship. (and by "Ds relationship, I include short term relationships, not saying you have to give it months to really try it.)

Nothing wrong with bottoming (obviously) but this is not the same as subbing.

(in reply to TallDominantMast)
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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/20/2007 3:09:40 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Tut, tut... all this shouting...!  Self control is an excellent Dom trait - guess you're not expected to learn that during a period of service....  
 


oh btw.. this is a READING FORUM... so.. don't know where you get all this shouting..... unless of course you are reading to yourself...

Over 3,000 posts and the concept of using caps, 'bold' and font size singly or in combination to "shout" is news to you? 
 
You did note Archer knew exactly what I meant = *communication*?  Lol, of course you didn't or you wouldn't be making such a jackass of yourself now.
 
Focus. 

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/20/2007 5:59:04 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Tut, tut... all this shouting...!  Self control is an excellent Dom trait - guess you're not expected to learn that during a period of service....  
 


oh btw.. this is a READING FORUM... so.. don't know where you get all this shouting..... unless of course you are reading to yourself...

Over 3,000 posts and the concept of using caps, 'bold' and font size singly or in combination to "shout" is news to you? 
 
You did note Archer knew exactly what I meant = *communication*?  Lol, of course you didn't or you wouldn't be making such a jackass of yourself now.
 
Focus. 


I think the JACKASS... is a person that gets all touchy on just how the fonts on the screen look.    A person would think an uber Dom like you would have more self-control than to allow that to affect you...... I am rather surprized.

and next time... I will try to be alittle more clearer with my sarcasm... obviously you didn't get the last... and I am not sure you get it this time either.  so... before you come back with the standard response...try to be orginal... of course, I don't expect any more than your typical passive aggressive attacks.  But... some close-minded old fools... are just that.... but your really not that old to be a closed-minded fool...  definitely a person before his time.  Ironcially... the same behavior you demonstrate with your close-mindedness that would be demonstrated by someone of a young age would be labeled Immature by you...   mmmmmm you know... I agree with that in alot of cases..... but they are young... no life experiences to speak off... of course you not so young... so I have to wonder what your excuse is..  well.. maybe I don't wonder about it too much... the answer is rather obvious

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 180
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