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RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 4:55:59 PM

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddyscherry

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddyscherry
This is not too dissimilar at all from this whole thread...submitting to that which you would already want to do is submitting because you are doing it for the other person when they want you to etc. but doing something that you don't wish to do quite as much is just going alittle deeper in submission.

And that comparison is where the problem lies.

Is a mother more devoted because her birth was painful rather than easy?

i'm not talking about devotion, please don't misunderstand...submission and devotion are entirely different.

Yes they are... and then no they aren't. The logic here is that submission is best proven through trial by fire.

If you like making your slave endure things and if you are a slave who likes being forced endure things, great for you. But I really can't buy into this idea that it somehow "proves" anything. If you want to get really cynical, there are plenty of women out there who have done exactly what a man wanted, no matter what it was, until they got what they wanted and then they left.

Is a mother a better mother when she didn't want to become a mother?

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 7/20/2007 4:56:32 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to daddyscherry)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 5:12:04 PM

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Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Celeste,

quote:

There's property and there's property. If you own a brand new Ferrari, I doubt you would leave it unwashed if it got road salt on it, lend it to a friend who tends to drink and drive etc. You wouldn't make it do difficult things like go off road. You would spend a great deal of your time and money tending to it. Heated garage, car wash, oil change etc.

The oil change yes but other than that, no. A friend and I swore if we ever bought a hot new car like that we would take a ball pein hammer with us to the dealership so the minute it was ours we could put a dent in every one of the quarter panels as our intent was to drive the living fuck out of it. Never got a Ferrari but my philosophy is the same, I don't care what it is, if I don't use the hell out of it, get rid of it.

(in reply to Celeste43)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 6:06:00 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

You keep saying "I make my slave endure as a way to prove I own her"

Actually, I don't keep saying that at all. What I have said is I loan her out or sell her or lease her on a time share basis to prove I own her. She might enjoy that, so it might not be anything to endure. You can treat property certain ways...those are ways you can't treat things you do not own.

I then say slavery, a specialized type of ownership, is only theoretic until the slave actually does something she would not do otherwise. "Forcing" someone to do something they would normally do isn't forcing them to do anything.

quote:

It would seem there are three possibilities:
1) You really aren't sure you own her, and need to prove it
2) You really are sure you own her, but just WANT to prove it
3) You make her endure for some reason other than proving ownership

I think I am a number 2. I get a real thrill out of proving it...it excites me. I guess it is kind of like roller coasters. I know they are safe, but it still doesn't stop me from getting a bit frightened.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 6:07:54 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NefertariReborn
And to think of the car analogy....you don't put your lumina in overdrive and head down the highway, the shit will fall apart. your ferrari is built to do that, in fact if you run it too softly the damn thing's engine isn't happy.

Bingo...give that beautiful lady a prize!

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to NefertariReborn)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 6:19:22 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
It transpires from this that a slave cannot constitute a piece of property since no legal contract may bind the object to its 'owner'.

Since that is really something that is subject to jurisdiction, I do not see how I could not have a slave that is in fact property. Sure, I delude myself into thinking I live in a tiny litle dictatorship that constitutes a sphere reaching out 100 feet in all directions from where I stand, where slavery is legal and my slave is my property. At least it is a fairly harmless delusion.

quote:

Possession is incomplete ownership.

And that is my problem with the term. If I want to delude myself into believing in slavery, I am not going to go halfway with some wishy washy term.

quote:

And that's a term that has been firmly left out of the whole slavery debate: unsurprisingly so, in my opinion.

Since eros love is something that I do not feel for my slaves, it really isn't surprising that a thread I started doesn't really deal with it.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 6:27:35 PM

Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Very very revealing thread!

Celeste, when you get around to publishing a "best of" I want a first edition. I must admit I thought you were full of shit when we first met here but you have truly won me over and opened my eyes. A certain woman is going to be reading and digesting what you wrote more than a few times and so thank you very very much.

Internal and external validation is something I still struggle with, sometimes I can subsist on internal and sometimes I need external but internal sure is a hell of a lot nicer.

*wink*
But you already knew that I agree with Celeste on each of her points, yes?
As a matter of fact, I'm beginning to think she and I were separated at birth!

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 6:45:20 PM

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddyscherry
i'm not talking about devotion, please don't misunderstand...submission and devotion are entirely different.

i agree, daddyscherry, submission and devotion are not the same thing. i am submissive, because i submit, not because i am devoted. i have been submissive with a number of men, over the years, who i was not devoted to, in the least.

i am devoted to my Master, not because i am submissive to Him, but because i made a commitment to Him to faithfully serve and obey Him for as long as He wants and needs me and protects and provides for me, according to the covenant Wwe made together. i agreed to be His fully owned slave and He agreed to be my sole Master and provider.

Also, i can be devoted without being submissive. i am devoted to my children and am not submissive to them, in any way. i am a devoted parent because i made a conscious decision to bring a new life into this world and i fully accepted the responsibility of caring for that life.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

"Commitment transforms a promise into a reality."

(in reply to daddyscherry)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 6:52:55 PM

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

As evidenced by the replies to the "sharing" question, many people believe that slavery or ownership is simply a state of mind. All it takes to be a slave is the feeling that one is a slave. All it takes to be owned is the acknowledgment that one is owned. Is that really all there is to it?

Taggard

i do not think that is all there is, but it starts (imo) in your heart and mind. i did many many things that were unpleasant... i did them because he owned me. However, before he owned the part of me that would do those unpleasant things for him....he first had to own my mind, the rest followed after that.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 7:41:35 PM

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

Since eros love is something that I do not feel for my slaves, it really isn't surprising that a thread I started doesn't really deal with it.

Slaves??? You possess MORE than one

?

_____________________________

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 8:04:59 PM

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Very very revealing thread!

Celeste, when you get around to publishing a "best of" I want a first edition. I must admit I thought you were full of shit when we first met here but you have truly won me over and opened my eyes. A certain woman is going to be reading and digesting what you wrote more than a few times and so thank you very very much.

Wow, thank you, kindly, Michael! I don't think JK Rowling will have anything to worry about, but if I ever publish that 'best of' I'll be sure to have my people contact your people!

quote:

Internal and external validation is something I still struggle with, sometimes I can subsist on internal and sometimes I need external but internal sure is a hell of a lot nicer.

I love meat. (Okay, quiet you pervs.) The older I get, the less validation I seek, both internal and external. It's, of course, nice to hear 'atta girls' from Himself, but being able to recognize my own flaws, work on those and, sometimes even manage to figure them out.. well, fairly recently I needed a spurt of that sort of growth, so was very grateful when it came into existance. It helps me to know that no matter what happens, I can still stand on my own and grow when I need to without having to worry about not having someone else around to guide me in the proper direction. That said, it's pretty damn cool to be able to bounce that off Himself and know he won't worry about me in that regard.

Celeste

PS. Thanks to you as well, BossyShoeBitch. I missed this post from Michael until you had copied it in your own post. I don't know if we were separated at birth (my memory of that time is a bit fuzzy) but if so, what ever happened to that cute doctor who spanked my butt?

I think he started a trend that's never ended!

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 8:08:41 PM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

As evidenced by the replies to the "sharing" question, many people believe that slavery or ownership is simply a state of mind. All it takes to be a slave is the feeling that one is a slave. All it takes to be owned is the acknowledgment that one is owned. Is that really all there is to it?

Taggard

This is how I feel also angelic.

i do not think that is all there is, but it starts (imo) in your heart and mind. i did many many things that were unpleasant... i did them because he owned me. However, before he owned the part of me that would do those unpleasant things for him....he first had to own my mind, the rest followed after that.

There is no substitute for owning the mind first, the rest should follow.
Great way of expressing it.

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to angelic)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 8:16:35 PM

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

There is no substitute for owning the mind first, the rest should follow.
Great way of expressing it.

Yup, I thought that exact same thing right up until I was 35 and met Himself and discovered, for me, capturing my heart is what let him control my head.. and the rest followed from there. I've had a lot of men and women who got into my brain, but Himself is the only one who's gotten into my heart.

Talk about sappy.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to MzMia)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 8:20:02 PM

NefertariReborn

Posts: 381
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: NefertariReborn
And to think of the car analogy....you don't put your lumina in overdrive and head down the highway, the shit will fall apart. your ferrari is built to do that, in fact if you run it too softly the damn thing's engine isn't happy.

Bingo...give that beautiful lady a prize!

Taggard

Wooo hooo what do I get ? What do I get? Once it's male, tall, gorgeous and naked (okay he doesn't have to be tall but definitely naked.) Fed Ex please...I'm not good at delayed gratification.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 8:25:25 PM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

psst Nefertari? have you looked at Tall, Dark and Witty's pics?
He is hot and definitely eye candy, do you think he will let us spank him?
lol

< Message edited by MzMia -- 7/20/2007 8:29:08 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to NefertariReborn)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 8:36:34 PM

NefertariReborn

Posts: 381
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

psst Nefertari? have you looked at Tall, Dark and Witty's pics?
He is hot and definitely eye candy, do you think he will let us spank him?
lol

I'm not shallow for nothing...I looked sooooo long ago but the Dom ones ...well except Michael who is just so evolved...don't usually let Us do that kind of thing.

(in reply to MzMia)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 8:48:53 PM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NefertariReborn

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

psst Nefertari? have you looked at Tall, Dark and Witty's pics?
He is hot and definitely eye candy, do you think he will let us spank him?
lol

I'm not shallow for nothing...I looked sooooo long ago but the Dom ones ...well except Michael who is just so evolved...don't usually let Us do that kind of thing.

I know, I know...but many of them like to bottom.

Let me tell you a secret....pssst...I have been on Collarme for 3 years now, and as far as the boards go...
I tend to be more attracted to and have a lot more respect for the Dominant men.
Sorry, I have found them to be straight up and a lot more respectful than most of the submissive male wankers.
Sooooooooooo, I guess birds of a feather, who knows?

*Clarification, I am not calling all the males submissive's online wankers, but IMHO many online are that.**

bottom line, it is OKAY for Dominant women to be attracted to and admire these fine Dominant men.
I want to also add, I have a lot of respect for many of the Masters here on CM, and have been given a lot
to think about.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 7/20/2007 9:32:28 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to NefertariReborn)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 9:46:41 PM

Posts: 4
Joined: 9/6/2006
Status: offline

I believe that whatever is discussed and agreed upon by the Dominant and the Submissive/slave defines the relationship.If it is not what both parties ultimately want in the relationship ,, it will not be successful and will fail.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 9:52:49 PM

robertolapiedra

Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

Are you really a slave if all you are ever forced to do is stuff you enjoy? Are you a "Master" if you never ask a slave to do stuff he/she does not enjoy?

As evidenced by the replies to the "sharing" question, many people believe that slavery or ownership is simply a state of mind. Mindset, attitude, belief, principles....

I like to share my slaves because it makes tangible the fact that they are property. Not sharing makes slave "property" untangible? or less tangible?

However, there is no question about the concept of ownership when a Master gives his slave away for a few hours. When the slave enjoys it? Would not interdiction be proof of ownership?

For me, again, I like tangible evidence that the relationship I have with my property is Master/slave. This means that only forcing them to do things they want to do just won't cut it. I have to re-enforce the idea that they are slaves by throwing in some unpleasantness...otherwise, it is purely a subjective and theoretic Master/slave relationship.

Of course this is just my way. ... I am not saying everyone must form their relationship I need evidence. I need proof.

Thoughts?

Taggard

Hello TallDarkAndWitty. Are you a (real?) slave when? Are you a (real?) master when? To me the M/s relationship with the focus being on the "owner/property" aspect is just a romantic notion.

What is your "pleasure"? having the slave prove her "mindset" to you, by doing stuff she doe's not like? or you like to prove to the beneficiaries of your "loan to others" that you are an owner? Or you would go the distance, and have her do stuff that the both of you would not enjoy, in order to bring in the "tangibles", thus proving purely an non-subjective ("real"?) and non-theoretic ("real?") Master/slave relationship.

The only way I can see what you are doing, is romantic M/s. A dominant constantly testing his sub in the "property" aspect is actually expressing doubt of property, thus ownership. If you doubt ownership, it is not exactly M/s isn't it? How can you be a master if you doubt about the "mindsets"?

If it is a pleasure issue? You enjoy having your sub doing stuff she does not like? In that case you can have M/s, and sadistic coercive stuff goes on all over the place. Nothing there, to prove anything subjective, objective, theoretical or "real. Are you a "real" master? Is she a "real" slave? Yes, because "knowing" that she doe's not like it, she does what you ask, and "no" because by doing this, you express your doubt in "your" ownership.

In my humble opinion, if it is doubt motivated, it is reversed leadership as "you" don't have to prove anything except doubt. If it is pleasure motivated, you are just being "romantic".

In the 21th century, there are no owners of "people", and people are not property. In a D/s relationship, when you use those "symbols", "mindsets", you have a M/s relationship that is "conditional" to a constant consensual dynamic. Your sub is consenting to "displeasure" (who knows really?) for your pleasure, not because "of" your ownership but "for" your ownership, "for" her submission level (property) in the dynamic.

One must make a distinction between "owning a real slave" and consented TPE.

As for myself, I like to "own" an happy slave. In my dynamic (TPE), I have a great part of responsibility. I will admit that I try minimize the "displeasure" side of things for someone submitting to me for the last 7 years. When submitting is a pleasure, you tend to get more, not less. I have my proof (coherence through time) and I cast no doubts.

My slave is my property as long as I keep making the "payments" by leading her, protecting her and yes, respecting her (mind, body and soul). I find that only a romantic would think that a TPE M/s type slave is automatically "paid" for in full, and must "act" like "historical human property". But that's me, your thoughts?

"Just my thoughts". RL.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:05:17 PM

robertolapiedra

Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline

[/quote]

I know, I know...but many of them like to bottom.

Let me tell you a secret....pssst...I have been on Collarme for 3 years now, and as far as the boards go...
I tend to be more attracted to and have a lot more respect for the Dominant men.
Sorry, I have found them to be straight up and a lot more respectful than most of the submissive male wankers.
Sooooooooooo, I guess birds of a feather, who knows?

*Clarification, I am not calling all the males submissive's online wankers, but IMHO many online are that.**

bottom line, it is OKAY for Dominant women to be attracted to and admire these fine Dominant men.
I want to also add, I have a lot of respect for many of the Masters here on CM, and have been given a lot
to think about.

[/quote]

Why MzMia....Uh...I'm sorry (no I'm not..) but I overheard your little secret ("almost" blushing as "real" doms don't blush!). If you come a little closer (but not to close? please?) I would like to whisper something into your lovely ear :("I admit to feeling the same way about some very, verrrry hot Dommes...but don't tell this to the ubers!") .....RL. :-)

Edit: Typo

< Message edited by robertolapiedra -- 7/20/2007 10:19:37 PM >

(in reply to MzMia)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 11:22:56 PM

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
However, there is no question about the concept of ownership when a Master gives his slave away for a few hours.

There is no question about my Master's ownership of this slave, ever, whether He loans me to another for a few hours, (which He is always present for, to insure His property is being used properly), or not.

quote:

I am sure, for many people, just knowing that they could and would do the unpleasant things (they just don't want to) is enough for them to feel like Master and slave. It just isn't enough for me. I need evidence. I need proof.

The fact that i am here, living as a 24/7 slave to my Master and doing whatever He decides, is evidence enough for my Master and me, that He owns me. i don't need to prove anything to Him and He doesn't need to prove anything to me and neither of Uus needs to prove anything to anyone else. He knows i am His property and can and does use me any way He wants, any time and anywhere. i know He is my Master and i obey Him, without question, hesitation, or an attitude, always, no matter what He tells me to do. He doesn't have to challenge me to see if i am really His property. He knows that i belong to Him and whatever He wants of me, He gets. i don't feel any more or less His slave, whether He rides me hard or rides me soft or doesn't ride me at all.

As Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "Strong men believe in cause and effect."

For instance, immediately stopping whatever i might be doing and coming to wherever my Master happens to be and dropping to my knees in front of Him and opening my mouth, is an effect that takes place daily. The cause of this happening is that i hear my Master's voice say, "Whore, come here.", and i know that means He wants to use His slave's mouth. He knows what He wants, i know why i am here, and there is never any reason to question it. He speaks or gestures and i respond accordingly. It's pretty much automatic and relatively effortless. For me and my Master, there isn't any need for my slave life to be made hard, in order for it to be valid, certain and substantial.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

"Commitment transforms a promise into a reality."

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

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