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How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/15/2007 11:42:59 PM

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My slave was told to be home at a certain time, with penalties in place for not arriving when she was due. Her grandpa wanted to take her out to dinner, and she asked me via texting my cell phone. The text messages never arrived, and when she was about six hours late I finally got a message from her saying what she was doing and asking permission which my silence was unable to give. I am trying to decide how to treat situations where my lack of an answer constitutes a yes, or that is how it is being treated, apparently. Six hours late also seems quite excessive. I'd like to know how others deal with or treat the issue of getting permission long distance, and what defines permission or lack of obedience. I did tell her that I don't consider an act of god tantamount to disobedience, and that's an exception. Is being unable to reach me viewable as an act of god? If I do punish her, do it tonight or explain that this isn't considered an act of god and punish if it happens in the future?
Looking forward to thought provoking posts,
Thanks

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/15/2007 11:46:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

My slave was told to be home at a certain time, with penalties in place for not arriving when she was due. Her grandpa wanted to take her out to dinner, and she asked me via texting my cell phone. The text messages never arrived, and when she was about six hours late I finally got a message from her saying what she was doing and asking permission which my silence was unable to give. I am trying to decide how to treat situations where my lack of an answer constitutes a yes, or that is how it is being treated, apparently. Six hours late also seems quite excessive. I'd like to know how others deal with or treat the issue of getting permission long distance, and what defines permission or lack of obedience. I did tell her that I don't consider an act of god tantamount to disobedience, and that's an exception. Is being unable to reach me viewable as an act of god? If I do punish her, do it tonight or explain that this isn't considered an act of god and punish if it happens in the future?
Looking forward to thought provoking posts,
Thanks

No.

Silence means: Have no answer at this time.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 12:36:04 AM

NefertariReborn

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For goodness sake. What was she supposed to do? Have Grandpa sit and wait until the phone company got their act together? She sought permission, in My eyes that counts for a lot. If you want to punish someone take a whip to the phone company. They might bring down their charges.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 1:01:37 AM

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Spank her grandpa.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 1:22:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Spank her grandpa.

just chuckles quietly ... but has sympathy for the poor girl in question.
LDRs just stink.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 1:24:11 AM

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When I set a rule I also set a 'default', a if you can't reach Me then assume the answer to be the default until you DO reach Me.

for example: going for a coffee with friends (assuming all other responcibilitys and tasks compleat) during the day where back by 9pm latest then default = yes

going somewhere with friends where alchohol served or would be back after 9pm then default=NO

Ergo whilst she should ALLWAYS attempt to get direct permission, then unless I have something specific I require her to do then in the first case I almost always grant such permission and I value her relationship with friends more than that little piece of protocol. The second case, at her age I am not letting peer group pressure hold any sway when it comes to enviroments that serve alchohol, My grip on her visiting such will remain tighter despite her relationship with friends and thus the default is NO even though if I am asked and thus informed then I am likely to give permission.... but there is no way I would be happy if she went and I wasn't informed.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 2:42:15 AM

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Well, my first thought is that if I can text, then I can phone, and then there would be no issue with wondering if he got the message or not - even if he couldn't answer and it went directly to voice mail.

However, even if I can't reach him, and even if I've left a message, in my world, if nothing's going on that needs to be taken care of (i.e.: we have plans for the evening), then family can prempt a previous direction. So, if Grandpa wants to go to dinner, by God, I'm going to dinner. There is no way in the world I'm going to say "Well, Grandpa, I don't know if I can spend time with you or not, I have to wait for _____ to say I can." But at the same time, I do make more than attempt to reach my Master throughout the evening so long as I'm not calling in front of Grandpa and I do attempt to guide the dinner toward being completed in a reasonable time frame.

I'd have some significant issues with someone telling me I can't go visit with my older relative because I was supposed to be home by a certain time in order to talk on the phone or computer. Thankfully, my Master believes as strongly in family as I do. This would never even be an issue.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 8/16/2007 2:46:53 AM >

(in reply to RavenMuse)

RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 2:48:10 AM

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After the last thread y'all had about her spending time with her grandfather for his birthday party, it amazes me that you didn't sit down and go over things like this, do what Raven said that he does and have some predetermined "rules" in place so that she would know what the answer was even though she couldn't reach you.

heartfelt

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 3:07:44 AM

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Errr, punish her for what, exactly?

Help me out here as I suspect phones must work differently in your part of the World....

She texted you - which tells me you *both* have cell phones, yes? Now Telco's being what they are, I can understand that messages sent occasionally don't arrive in reasonable time. But what I'm not understanding is that she's apparently *SIX HOURS* late!!! Just exactly how long were you gonna sit on your arse stewing before picking up the freakin' phone yourself and calling her? What if she'd been rushed to hospital and couldn't dial you at all - you still wait?

Okay, down to cases....
First, it seems the act of texting is an acceptable medium for gaining permission in your relationship. An obvious flaw has revealed itself - sending a msg does not bring acknowledgement that a msg was received. But she did send, right? Therefore, she did what I presume you expected but was let down by technology. Indeed, you both were.... So fix that for starters; from now on no texts on important matters - make a personal call where you're both in no doubt you're communicating.

Second, I assume tardiness is not generally a problem? Therefore, if she is tardy then suck in your pride and call her!

My own methods are simpler.... I'll accept a reason but not an excuse. Dinner with Gramps isn't quite a medical emergency but I'm almost always happy to indulge the girl if she's generally been good and follows the protocols I've set out and expect of her and in good time.

Finally, if a system within our relationship reveals a flaw, I fix the system. You're apparently fine with her texting you. She did text you and it's not her fault if the technology didn't deliver it. I don't see why you have a reason to punish her! A), your text system is a dog and B), you could've and I believe you *SHOULD* have called her to make sure all was well long before SIX hours had passed. For that, YOU should be the only one punished....

Focus.

(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 3:29:47 AM

ExquisiteFeline

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Its Master's like these that makes me love my Master more and more.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 3:49:44 AM

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We aren't in an LDR, she was about 40-60 minutes by car away. She has poor phone reception, but regardless, she can drive here, and on time too if she can't reach me on some phone. I called and texted but she didn't have reception. The question which isn't getting answered that I can tell, is about when permission might be required due to communication hangups or when it would be implied in different people's situations or dynamics. The responses about hospitals and that I must not care just boggle me.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 4:01:22 AM

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Why am I not surprised that the two of you are having communication issues again?

When I am required to ask permission for something, no answer from him does not mean that permission has been given. The only answser that means permission has been given is a "Yes" from him. Until that point, I do not have permission. Simply asking for permission does not mean that I have it.

However, I think punishment would be pointless. The two of you need to work on your communication issues. Until those are resolved, these types of things are going to keep coming up.

Knight's Kyra

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(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 4:06:25 AM

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Having a default policy makes sense. This is the first time we had encountered a situation where it was needed. She now has rules in place:
16) Be on time arriving where and when told, or pay a 5 minute corner time penalty, an additional 5 minutes per late hour, and a maximum of 30 minutes due to lateness in the corner per day.
If you can't reach me to ask if you can have me change your orders, you can assume you'll be disciplined. If I don't say yes, or you can't reach me to get an answer, the answer isn't yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

When I set a rule I also set a 'default', a if you can't reach Me then assume the answer to be the default until you DO reach Me.

for example: going for a coffee with friends (assuming all other responcibilitys and tasks compleat) during the day where back by 9pm latest then default = yes

going somewhere with friends where alchohol served or would be back after 9pm then default=NO

Ergo whilst she should ALLWAYS attempt to get direct permission, then unless I have something specific I require her to do then in the first case I almost always grant such permission and I value her relationship with friends more than that little piece of protocol. The second case, at her age I am not letting peer group pressure hold any sway when it comes to enviroments that serve alchohol, My grip on her visiting such will remain tighter despite her relationship with friends and thus the default is NO even though if I am asked and thus informed then I am likely to give permission.... but there is no way I would be happy if she went and I wasn't informed.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 4:11:08 AM

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I find it funny that you speak as though punishing her would be a big step for us, into a relationship where Discipline is present and we may not be ready for such a thing. We talked it all out, really, people worry too much. The question at hand was the point, not whether the consensus is that I am capable of training Jodi.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Why am I not surprised that the two of you are having communication issues again?

When I am required to ask permission for something, no answer from him does not mean that permission has been given. The only answser that means permission has been given is a "Yes" from him. Until that point, I do not have permission. Simply asking for permission does not mean that I have it.

However, I think punishment would be pointless. The two of you need to work on your communication issues. Until those are resolved, these types of things are going to keep coming up.

Knight's Kyra

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 4:44:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

She has poor phone reception....

I called and texted but she didn't have reception....

The responses about hospitals and that I must not care just boggle me.

Lol, "boggles" you - how so?

See, there's ZILCH in the OP about you attempting to contact her! Ditto for poor reception, too! But we all heard how you waited a whopping SIX hours until , presumably, *she* WAS able to contact you. So we're left to read your mind because, frankly, you seem all hung up on punishing her rather than refining your system of communication and, even simpler, understanding a basic concept that permission is only given when you actually give it. That and that sometimes, esp where family is concerned, she may not be actually asking so much as respectfully informing you of a different priority. Now if I don't have specific plans for us, I'm fine with that, too.

What I'm not fine with is being left wondering and maybe even worrying, ESP after 6 hours. So your mobile reception sux - how about a landline in emergency? A freakin' email? Carrier pigeon? Anything has gotta be better than staring at the walls in limbo! Forget about punishment and concentrate of your *communication*. Once your system works, then you won't confuse a reason with an excuse - only the latter risks punishment in my household.

Focus.

(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 4:47:02 AM

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Grandparents ARE an act of God.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 4:58:14 AM

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In a day and age of technology people don't stop to think of the landline,which is often more reliable than a cell phone. Surely wherever she was they had a phone. It really makes me wonder when she doesn't hear from you that she isn't concerned because she hasn't and leaves it for 6 hours. 6hours.... changed plans without confirmation..... damn that is a long time.

You two should be working on better and clearer communication and expectations instead of thinking about punishments. For punishments to work the one of the receiving end has to actually care that they have screwed up. I don't think this instant is much different from the last one that you posted about.. different situation perhaps, but the underlying problem seems the same.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 5:05:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

We aren't in an LDR, she was about 40-60 minutes by car away. She has poor phone reception, but regardless, she can drive here, and on time too if she can't reach me on some phone. I called and texted but she didn't have reception. The question which isn't getting answered that I can tell, is about when permission might be required due to communication hangups or when it would be implied in different people's situations or dynamics. The responses about hospitals and that I must not care just boggle me.

If she didn't have reception, then, again, the communication system had broken down due to technology failures. If she could not get hold of you she could not get hold of you. You didn't get through when you attempted to contact her, which also means you couldn't have given permission even if you had said yes.

If the cell phones are not reliable, you need to either A) find an alternate/backup method of communication; B) establish defaults to guide when communication has been disrupted for reasons beyound her control or yours; or C) do both.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 5:09:54 AM

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Punishment is not a big step. In this case, I personally would consider it a big mistake.

quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

I find it funny that you speak as though punishing her would be a big step for us, into a relationship where Discipline is present and we may not be ready for such a thing. We talked it all out, really, people worry too much. The question at hand was the point, not whether the consensus is that I am capable of training Jodi.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Why am I not surprised that the two of you are having communication issues again?

When I am required to ask permission for something, no answer from him does not mean that permission has been given. The only answser that means permission has been given is a "Yes" from him. Until that point, I do not have permission. Simply asking for permission does not mean that I have it.

However, I think punishment would be pointless. The two of you need to work on your communication issues. Until those are resolved, these types of things are going to keep coming up.

Knight's Kyra

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 5:17:22 AM

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When it comes to time with FAMILY, the answer is default yes regardless of whether permission is actually asked or not. Personally I do not come between family and my pets. Were it friends, that might be a different matter. However, she shuld not be punished for actually going with her grandfather when she was unable to reach you. She made a judgement call that you, as a caring owner, would not have said no.
If you already know that reception is a problem on her phone (which you obviously do) my suggestion would be to set permission rules incase someone cannot be reached.
For Angel and I, there are certain friends only which he has to ask permission for, since I do not necessarly like their influnece on him. ASide form that, he knows who he is and isnt allowed to be with. When we were distance, and working around a time difference, it was necessary. Working around poor reception is much the same. You assume she will not be able to get in touch rather than she will.
And another suggestion, since she is obviously local... use a REAL LAND LINE PHONE if al else fails. If texts dont arrive, instead of dealing with the silence, drop a quarter into a payphone and make a real cal. Leave a message if you have to. People's dependance on the cell phones has blinded them to those neat little devices still plugged into the wall.

You dont need punishment, you need a sit down discusion of contact rules, not centering on just the cell phone. Putting al your faith in that device is already causig trouble, so find a way to circumvent it.

DV

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