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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 6:16:31 AM   
caitlyn


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General ...
 
I'm with Meatcleaver on this one. It's a strange position to speak out against this, and yet be in favor of abortion. Saying you are "pro-choice" is nothing but a word game.
 
The top reason for abortions in my area is economic. For those without health insurance, having a baby is about five grand, and having an abortion is about five-hundred dollars. This is not open for debate, at least in my area. It is very will researched.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 6:35:25 AM   
kittinSol


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How can I be 'in favour' of abortion? That would imply I would want people to have them, which is certainly not the case. Therefore, the words 'pro-choice' fit me just fine. Call that what you like.

The problem in India isn't intrinsic to abortion, it is to do with the status of girls and women. Abortion is merely instrumental to the eradication of girls. And that's what I am troubled with.

See the title of the thread.



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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 7:01:13 AM   
meatcleaver


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Kittysol- Genocide is an emotive word and this is not genocide, it is not even infanticide, it is aborting a female fetus whether through social pressure or cultural choice, something western women do all the time. Western women might choose to abort because they think they cannot afford to bring up child, yet in the west we could afford to take care of every child that could be born, particularly in countries where the indigenous birth rate is falling. That says something about our society. Women also abort to stop a pregnancy interfering in their career or even will interfer with their ability to have a good time. We in the west are in no position to criticize another culture for making choices about why they want to abort even if it is sex specific. If aborting too many female fetus' is detrimental to Indian society, that will in and of itself promote a re-evaluating on their customs.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 7:30:18 AM   
kittinSol


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I envy your certainty over this. I have none whatsoever and find the whole question wholly unsettling: it is indeed difficult to reconcile my fundamental beliefs about universal access and right to abortion, and the particular situation in India. I think Sugar made a good point when he mentioned that were the fetus not aborted, the baby girl would be killed. Indeed, baby girls are actually killed on a routine basis, so the availibility of abortion is a lesser evil I suppose.

quote:



The Guardian (Feb. 2007)

In India it has never been more dangerous to be conceived female. A preference for boys, who carry on the family bloodline and inherit wealth, has always existed in Indian society. But what has made being a girl so risky now, is the lethal cocktail of new money mixed with medical technology that makes it possible to tell the sex of a baby while it is still in the womb.

Although gender-based abortion is illegal, parents are choosing to abort female foetuses in such large numbers that experts estimate India has lost 10 million girls in the past two decades. In the 12 years since selective abortion was outlawed, only one doctor has been convicted of carrying out the crime.

This hidden tragedy surfaces not only in the statistics of skewed sex ratios, but also in the back yards of clinics that hoped to bury the evidence. Earlier this month police arrested two people after the discovery of 400 pieces of bones believed to be of female foetuses in the town of Ratlam, Madhya Pradesh. Last September, the remains of dozens of babies were exhumed from a pit outside an abortion clinic in Punjab. According to investigators, that clinic was run by an untrained, unqualified retired soldier and his wife. To dispose of the evidence, acid was use to melt the flesh and then the bones were hammered to smithereens.

[...]

The latest estimate of India's sex ratio at birth (SRB) can be gleamed from a sample registration system that covers 1.3m households. For the two years up to 2004, India had just 882 girls per 1,000 boys. Only China is worse. Beijing's harsh, yet effective, family-planning policy limited urban couples to a single child -which was usually a boy. China's sex ratio stands at just 832:1,000. Sabu George, a Delhi-based researcher who has worked for two decades on female foeticide, describes the first few months in the womb as "the riskiest part of a woman's life cycle in India". The sex ratios in the country, he says, are getting worse "day by day". India, he says, now has 930,000 missing girls every year. "What we are talking about is a massive, hidden number of deaths."

Although ministers in India have woken up to "a national crisis", the response has been to condone the abandonment of female babies. "lf you don't want a girl, leave her to us," Renuka Chowdhury, India's minister of state for women and child development, said recently. The government "will bring up your children. Don't kill them". The announcement was a desperate response to stem India's dramatic deficit of women. In the west, women outnumber men by at least 3%. India has almost 8% more men than women. The question for India is what sort of future it faces without enough women. One dystopian answer, given by academics Valerie M Hudson and Andrea den Boer, is that a generation of men unable to find wives has already emerged. In their book, Bare Branches, they write of men who will never marry and have children. It is these men, they say, who are already largely responsible for social unrest in those areas where women are in short supply.

Indian scholars, they say, have noted a growing relationship between sex ratios and violent crime in Indian states. When potential wives are scarce, it is the least-skilled and educated men who are left on the shelf. Hudson and Den Boer put forward a scenario where large areas of India could be overrun by this under-class, with marauding groups of under-educated testosterone-high youths wreaking havoc. "It will mean a stronger masculine and macho culture," says Den Boer, co-author and lecturer in International Politics at the University of Kent. "Men do change their behaviour when they settle down. Those growing pools of men that don't are more likely to congregate to take part in stealing, gangs, bootlegging and terrorism."
In villages across the flat plains of north India, two decades of widespread female foeticide is already felt by thousands of families who cannot find brides for their sons. One local leader in the state of Haryana likened the lack of marriageable women to the shortage of grain in a famine.

It is an apt simile, given that the response to the catastrophe has seen women from poorer states being traded like a commodity by bride traffickers. As little as 10,000 rupees (£125) is paid to impoverished families in Bihar, West Bengal and Madhya Pradesh for a daughter who will supposedly be found a job in a more prosperous part of India. The reality is that she will be sold into a forced marriage to a family in a richer state.

So significant has the lack of brides become in Punjab and Haryana that the issue has seeped into its politics, engulfing local elections. Candidates standing for office pledge that they will "help provide girls" if elected. Village leaders are accosted by unmarried men and asked to find them brides. Meanwhile, activists say that trafficked girls - who are often underage - are treated as bonded labour and sex slaves once married. The groups supporting trafficked brides are overwhelmed by the extent of the problem. "We're losing the battle," says Ravi Kant, executive director of Shakti Vahini, an organisation working on the ramifications of female foeticide. "It is in every village. The police are saying these families are doing nothing wrong. There's collusion between the law and the politicians, and it's destroying the whole social fabric."

India's paradox is that prosperity has not meant progress. Development has not erased traditional values: in fact, selective abortion has been accelerated in a globalising India. On the one hand there has been new money and an awareness of family planning - so family sizes get smaller. But wealthier - and better- educated - Indians still want sons. A recent survey revealed that female foeticide was highest among women with university degrees.

The demographic consequences of mass female foeticide are most pronounced in the most developed parts of India. In Delhi, one of the richest cities in India, there are just 827 girls per 1,000 boys being born. Not far away, in the wealthy farming belt of Kurukshetra, there are only 770.

At the heart of the matter lies the most sacred institution in Indian life: marriage. New money has raised the price of wedlock, a ritual still governed by the past. Not only do most Indians believe in arranged marriage, in which dowry payments are made; there is also a widespread acceptance of the inequality between bride-givers and bride-takers.

The bride's side, according to convention, is supposed to give but never take from the groom's family. In today's India that translates into an evermore expensive gift list of consumer goods. Decades ago, a wealthy bride's father would have been expected to give gold bracelets. Today it is jewellery, fridges, cars and foreign holidays - and the bride's family may end up paying the bill for the rest of their lives.

A son, by contrast, is an asset to his family. Even leaving aside the wealth his bride will bring, a boy will retain the family - and the caste - name. He will also inherit the property, and is seen as a way of securing parent-care in old age.

Indians, therefore, have come to view the girl child as a burden, an investment without return. A favourite Hindi saying translates as: "Having a girl is to plant a seed in someone else's garden." One of the results is that women themselves face immense family pressure to get rid of the girl in their womb. Feminists in India argue that criminalising women who have done so is to ignore how fiercely patriarchal the value system is. As some see it, a woman who participates in the killing of her own child is actually denying her own self-value and should not be punished but be treated with concern.
 
[...]

The trickle down of cash means that even lower middle-class families can afford a few thousands rupees on the technology. Before sex-selective abortion was outlawed in 1994, clinics would advertise terminating girls as "spend 3,000 now and save 300,000 later".

Multinational companies began to sense a huge market opportunity in the mid-90s in India. Every three years the market doubles, and sales of scanners are thought to be running at 10,000 a year. First American, then Korean and now Chinese companies have pitched up to make and sell scanners. Some campaigners claim that the American giant General Electric's early arrival in the market indirectly led to millions of aborted girls.
 
[...]

Under Indian law, however, doctors who use "sonography" are forbidden to tell mothers the sex of the child. The penalty is prison and a fine of up to 100,000 rupees (£1,200). They were also undeterred by performing late abortions - in some cases happily willing to terminate pregnancies months after India's 20-week limit.

[...]

India's labyrinthine laws and its antiquated judicial system have also created mixed messages regarding abortion rights. The banning of selective abortion has led to many women thinking they no longer have a right to a legal abortion. Some feminists are concerned that the campaigns against female foeticide have inadvertently driven women to seek backstreet abortions.
No one has any quick-fix answers to deeply held and pervasive prejudices against women. The question for India is whether girls like Bhavia, that abandoned and unwanted bundle lying in a Delhi orphanage, will have choices that her own mother never did.





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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 7:34:02 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

I have none whatsoever and find the whole question wholly unsettling: it is indeed difficult to reconcile my fundamental beliefs about universal access and right to abortion, and the particular situation in India.


Shows that you are still able to think, and to feel.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 7:35:50 AM   
kittinSol


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Well, I am only human.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 7:41:46 AM   
meatcleaver


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India has modernized in leaps and bounds but it has a population of 1,100,000 million people and its biggest concern is fighting poverty and keeping starvation at bay. However, there is a right to choose here and Western liberals should accept that a right to coose is a right to choose and if they don't like that right, tough. There are people that don't like their right to choose but accept it as a right. It is irrelevent if people claim that if these abortions never took place, infanticide would be commited, that is conjecture put forward as fact to strengthen ones own argument.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 7:45:40 AM   
kittinSol


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Actually, meatcleaver, if you read the copious amount of literature that addresses the subject you will see that sex-selective abortion is illegal in India. Much because of the reasons listed in the Guardian article I quoted above.

I know where you are coming from; and I disagree with you. I come from humanistic thought and I believe in the universality of women's rights, yet I seek not to point my finger at a different cultural tradition. Simply asking questions, conveying thoughts and doubts.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 8/20/2007 8:10:10 AM >


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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 8:17:47 AM   
cyberdude611


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I'd have to side with meatcleaver here...
There are cultures out there that kill babies if they are deformed or mentally retarded... And this is looked at very poorly by the west. But this is a popular liberal argument for abortion, "what if the baby is retarded or deformed..." It's almost like abortion supporters here in the west believe killing off that baby is an act of mercy. It goes back to the so-called "quality of life argument." The Nazis thought the same thing by the way. They killed off babies that were deformed at birth or were retarded.

I mean we bash these other cultures....but we do the same thing here. The only difference is that we are justifying it by claiming it is "women's rights" and therefore we like to think we are more advanced. And it is a serious weakness in the liberal side of the argument on this issue.

Look at all the feminists in the USA that started getting their panties all twisted because the Supreme Court made it illegal for partial-birth abortions. So now feminists and far-leftists want a constitutional amendment that would gurantee the "right" that women have to have this procedure performed. Do you know what they do in a partial-birth abortion? Do some research before you make a reply bashing this other culture.

What's that saying? Those living in a glass house shouldn't throw stones? I think you guys need to look in the mirror at your own culture before bashing another for doing what is basically the same kind of barbaric practice. I mean, it's a woman's choice, right? If the woman terminates a pregnancy because it is her body and her decision.... we have no right to say that is wrong, right? I mean that is what the liberals in America are always telling me when I talk against abortion.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 8:20:27 AM   
kittinSol


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I have no problems 'bashing' at something I think is wrong, regardless of the culture from which it emerges. However, bashing Indian culture was very far from my original intent.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 8:23:35 AM   
cyberdude611


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I didn't mean for it to sound like I was bashing your post or your intent... just those that have posted in here who bash this culture (or any culture like it) while also supporting abortion in their own culture.

It's hypocrisy.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 8:42:01 AM   
Sinergy


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I am going to take a position similar to kittinSol on this one.  The problem is the general societal status of women and young girls. The result of this problem is that on a singular level, the family aborts the female baby which results in a burgeoning disparity between the genders.  To whit, instead of the 1.1 male births (male babies have higher infant mortality) to 1 female birth causing (increased medical standards) a glut of male babies to female babies, now we can factor in the abortion of female babies.

I studied this issue when I worked on my degree in modern Asia and took Feminist Theory in college.  This is not a new development to me.  What we are seeing is the first storm clouds on the horizon (the generation of the 1970s where this practice became widespread) coming of age, and continuing the societal practices, and so on.

This is not about abortion.  This is about the struggle between the needs of the many (having female children to allow society to maintain it's own population) and the needs of the few (not being the one to have a female child).

As far as those who are upset because other people are trashing foreign cultures.  I think it is possible to look at a societal trend based in a foreign culture and comment on the general outcome of that trend, without puffing up my own society and culture.  I try to be equal opportunity in my perception of reality.  In other words, I strive to maintain an ability to trash or compliment everybody regardless of culture, race, political perception, whatever.

Sinergy

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 8:49:34 AM   
meatcleaver


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You are still coming from a elitist cultural position and you can't escape that. What is equality? We don't have equality in the west and never will. People who claim equality tend to claim it because it is in their self interest and not the interest of those that claim their is no equality. Why did this practice start? I don't know, usually there are usually very practical reasons for these sort of practices that one culture finds strange about another. Just because we feel our values are superior to someone elses doesn't mean they are. Living in the west is like living on a different planet compared to living in poverty in India. If the imbalance of men and women is do detrimental to Indian society it will eventually right itself.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 8:52:17 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


I am going to take a position similar to kittinSol on this one. 



Finally!

quote:



The problem is the general societal status of women and young girls. The result of this problem is that on a singular level, the family aborts the female baby which results in a burgeoning disparity between the genders.  To whit, instead of the 1.1 male births (male babies have higher infant mortality) to 1 female birth causing (increased medical standards) a glut of male babies to female babies, now we can factor in the abortion of female babies.



Absolutely, you are echoing my previous points: the demographic repercussions are enormous.

quote:



I think it is possible to look at a societal trend based in a foreign culture and comment on the general outcome of that trend, without puffing up my own society and culture.  I try to be equal opportunity in my perception of reality.  In other words, I strive to maintain an ability to trash or compliment everybody regardless of culture, race, political perception, whatever.



That's what I've been trying to explain without much success. Perhaps since the words come out of the fingers of a man people will listen to them more intently. (Kidding digging.)



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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 9:12:06 AM   
CuriousLord


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I wouldn't worry about bashing aspects of another culture at all, so long as such bashings are reasonably supported.  There is a difference between bashing an aspect a culture happens to have and bashing the culture as a collective.  So, to this end, I'll agree there.

However, I still do not understand how one can argue against the intrinsic value of life to such a degree that life may be taken at convenience.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 10:13:18 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

I mean we bash these other cultures....but we do the same thing here.


So if everything is relative, then because we have abortions in the West, it's OK to burn alive thousands of Indian women in fake 'kitchen fires' every year?

Does anyone know what a tu quoque fallacy is? 

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 10:40:37 AM   
SusanofO


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Quick Sidenote: Re: The abortion question, as it pertains to this discussion. I think one's POV depends on how one views abortion. Some view it as a contraceptive deivce, and others as murder. It's a question that will never be resolved to the satisfaction of some, which is why I didn't want to bring it into the discussion in the first place. Not because it means some "win" any points in the discussion, but because I believe it is a morally unresolvable issue.

Then again, maybe there actually are people in the U.S. who believe that selling your child to a brothel at age five to make $20 is a fine thing to do, I dunno. I saw where this convo was headed if it took that turn, so I decided to keep this discussion (for me) as it related to children's welfare who are already living.

People can think whatever they want to think about abortion, and I am not trying to side-track things, just explain where I was "coming from" in that regard, in my previous posts where I refused to get drawn ointo an abortion debate.

Yes, I certainly am coming from an "elitist" positon on this. There are cultures that would never allow selling children for sex to ever happen, and that has been true for centuries, not for a mere 35years (as with abortion, if you consider it to be murder, and during which, I might add, the U.S. already had things like a Foster care system, and free education for children in this country)- and it's not only related to their economic survival. Kind of like incest is considered wrong by most cultures. Sorry to disappoint you. I don't think selling UMs for sex is just "a shame" or "understandable considering their cirsumstances" or "too bad". I think it's inexcusable.

Also: Places like (especially) Africa, and India (still, in many places, despite what anyone wants to believe), where people still don't have access to things like AIDs medicine and contraceptive devices - well - all I can say is I am glad I don't live there. If this makes me an "elitist", so be it. I donate plenty of money to charity. Maybe that makes me an "elitist" as well. Oh well.

There is such a thing as an "advanced culture", I believe. If there isn't then what are you doing sitting here typing at a computer, instead of out in the hot sun somewhere, clearing a field for grain or vegetables, so you can merely do something like eat dinner, tonight? 

I don't  consider it a crime to be better off than that -I consider it a blessing.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/20/2007 11:25:55 AM >


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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 10:49:06 AM   
CuriousLord


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I believe the abortion issue here comes up, in part, for those with pro-life interests.  This post, to me, seems to be, "A lot of females are being aborted in modern-day India.  What, if anything, is wrong?"  For those with the pro-life view, the answer quickly comes back, "Well, duh, a lot of people are being aborted!"

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 10:54:10 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Why did this practice start? I don't know, usually there are usually very practical reasons for these sort of practices that one culture finds strange about another.



A good place to start learning about why the practice started can be found in Jared Diamond's book "Why Is Sex Fun?" which discusses the forces which impact being female.  I believe it was dealt with some in Marx's "The Origin of Family, Private property, and the State" (IIRC) which discusses how women became property along with how other property is considered in the history of mankind.

Can probably google other books.  Has been 20 years since I studied it extensively, and I will cite more sources as they come to mind.

Sinergy

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 10:59:29 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

meatcleaver: Yes, I certainly am coming from an "elitist" positon on this. Guess I am just not Politically Correct enough to say selling UMs for sex (girls or boys) under any circumstances is fine. There are cultures that would never allow that to happen, and that has been true for centuries, not for a mere 35years - and it's not only related to their economic survival. Kind of like incest is considered wrong by most cultures. Sorry to disappoint you. I don't think selling UMs for sex is just "a shame" or "understandable considerin g their cirsumstances" or "too bad". I think it's inexcusable.

- Susan


There are cultures that would never allow abortions to take place for reasons that Ums are too expensive to bring up or it would interfer with a woman's career or better still, it would ruin her social life or, damn, she and her lover had a drink and thought damn, no contraception available and we're do fucking hot for each other. We are happy with those excuses in the west as a good enough reason for an abortion because it is a woman's freedom of choice but they are hardly edifying reasons to abort. However, no doubt you would claim superiority by saying it is a matter of freedom. Sorry but if they are legitimate reasons for an abortion so is aborting female fetus' because of culture preferences. Again, hardly an edifying reason but no less edifying than reasons for abortions in the west.

West cultural superiority? Come on! Look in the mirror.

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