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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 9:36:13 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

The way I see the OP, if your relationship is so fragile that acting out one time is going to wreck it, than no matter how many years you put into it, it wasnt all that good to begin with. It would greatly depend on what that willful disobedience was, and the reason behind it. For all our best intentions, occasionaly we are incorrect and if that act of willful disobedience contradicts a command that was wrong (wether you knew it yet or not) it is far more forgivable tha something done simply becasue they didnt feel like it.
If someone defies you once, you correct the behavior and make sure it is well understood that there will only be one chance given. The punishment should fit the offense, and they should be reminded how lucky they are you didnt end it when they thought their own wil was more important than yours. But throwing away years of work and emotion and devotion becasue of one offense is not being Dominant. It is almost like backing off, and letting the sub know you are not strong enough to master them, that your power crumbles at the smallest challenge. It takes a stronger person to take the situation in hand and reaffirm their position in the power dynamic than it does someone to throw their hands up and say they are done.

My humble opinion of course

DV

I agree with this 100% even though I've never lived my life as a slave in a 24.7 situation. I cannot fathom the ending of a relationship that had endured months or years over one thing. Can it be that absolute? One act of "willful disobedience" (whatever that even means exactly) and you're out?
Who is that perfect? Who never has a moment of weakness, a small tragedy in their lives that may knock them off course temporarily, a bad day, a confusing feeling of conflict, a second thought, a moment of unsurity, a master who temporarily slips or lets things shift out of control because of something out of the ordinary that he is dealing with.. Dont people work through this shit? Coummincate? See where and why it went wrong? Whoops, you willifully disobeyed me, now get out. I cant wrap my head around that for the life of me.

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)

Post #: 41

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 9:50:59 PM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
How would you handle it?

Would you throw away a relationship that has extended years for the sake of perserving your own power/authority?

Or would there be alternative methods you would try to keeping the relationship and dynamic going and intact?

I'd first want to find out WHY she/he acted as they did. They might have had a damned good reason. I might have been a complete idiot. So, after I was done with being angry, I'd sit and talk. I highly doubt I'd throw away a long term relationship for that.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 42

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 1:00:35 AM

WhiplashSmile

Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline

My mind is spinning now...
Tonight is the night I finally learn or discover the truth, this folllows up with my earlier posting on this thread, and a couple of threads I've created in the last couple of monthes.

As fate would have it, this one I've been having a struggle with is "Married", however she's had a bad abusive marriage and her husband has terminal cancer. She has been dealing with a lot and not sharing all this with me. All of which I know is not good, to be lied to. However, this brings complete and suddenly clarity to everything. Like I tried to tell her a 100 times over, the truth always comes out eventually.

There are some many thoughts on my mind at this hour it's not funny. Within the last couple of weeks I did met somebody new that has caught my attention, and even interests. Yes, somebody I really like.

There's a lot that can be said for closing and opening doors in life. Well I got the holy grail truth... my head is spinning. A lot can be said about throwing things away or working past it. A human element of do we give on somebody, completely throw them out of our lives or work past it, perhaps turning it into a simple friendship.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 43

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 2:45:59 AM

came4U

Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline

MadRabbit:

If one does make that strict regulation that direct defiance will not be tolerated (and the girl/slave agrees) and it would mean a goodbye then He (the Master) better mean it when he says that. To allow it, enable it twice, thrice, only makes one realize that whatever the battle, it might be outright defiance only to achieve her 'toss' from your life. If it does become a burdensome game as this is it really M/s anymore or a struggle for top status or equality?

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)

Post #: 44

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 3:59:57 AM

feastie

Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

Fast Reply:

Why is it that people continue to believe it's ok to remove the human from the M/s relationship? People don't stop being human just because they've become an M or an s. They don't suddenly achieve perfection because they've found someone with whom they can practice their M or s. A situation of "willful disobedience" deserves, at the very least, to be explored, addressed and discussed. Decisions regarding course of action can then be taken.

I may be submissive, I may be slave, I may be neither. The one thing I always am, is human.

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to came4U)

Post #: 45

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 4:13:44 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

Tempting,

Maybe it would help to understand what we consider as willfully disobedient because by your last sentence I am not sure that it is clear.

In order to complete an instruction I have to fully understand what I am required to do. I have to be able to answer who, what, where, when and how. I also have to know what he considers successful completion of that order. Washing the car for me may mean something completely different than it does to him and not completing the task the way he wanted is a communication failure and not willful disobedience.

I also have to be capable of completing the task. Whether it is mentally, physically or emotionally, if I am incapable of doing something then it is not willful disobedience. I am also required to make sure that this instruction doesn't contradict a previous instruction given (a scenario given by someone else in this thread of taking care of a sick mom or getting home by curfew explains this).

In order to be willfully disobedient, I have to completely understand the instruction, be capable of completing the instruction and consciously choose not to do it with full knowledge that I am disobeying him. It isn't about making mistakes, miscommunication, inability to perform. It is conscious defiance to his will; choosing my will over his. That type of action removes his authority over me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

KOM..I can certainly understand that obedience can be the bedrock of the relationship. But with that in mind, I can also see where sometimes there may be exception to the rule..Man cannot cover all contingencies that life may throw at him.But as you also stated you work with your girls upon the information they give you, so as to make best possible decision. I too subscribed in my response to the thought of respectfully providing reason for refusal, ie: more information..So are we not coming from same mindset of communication?..

Providing information is not the same thing as refusing and then explaining why. We don't refuse him. With permission we give him more information so that he has everything he needs to make a decision. Sometimes when the information is given that I think might change his instruction, he will say "do it anyway" and then it is done. It doesn't matter that I think it is a bad decision; it only matters that he said to do it and he had all the information available.

quote:

I can imagine that it could give a submissive a sense of constantly being on the precipice of rejection, of worrying over that mistake or maybe even that worrisome refusal that somehow a wall has been hit, that they cannot overcome as easily as you had wished..so then poof!..out they go for hitting that wall..rather than being helped over it.

I have already stated my thoughts that being incapable of completing a task or making mistakes is not the same as being willfully disobedient. As far as constantly worrying that he is going to end the relationship, that doesn't happen. Alandra has been with him for 20 years and has not willfully disobeyed in all that time and she doesn't walk around worrying that she will willfully disobey. I have been with him for almost 2.5 years and I feel more secure in this relationship than any other in my past. It took time to build that security, just like it does in any relationship, but it is very empowering to know that as long as I do not defy him the relationship will last. Willful disobedience is not an issue and not something that we worry about.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)

Post #: 46

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 4:34:09 AM

callistaIn

Posts: 62
Status: offline

I was released. Period. NO negotiations, no trying to work past it, no pity from him. I willingly disobeyed him, therefore, I willingly ended our relationship.

Fortunatly for me, he knew the reasons behind the why; and because of that, we remain friends even today.

Do I ever regret my decision to disobey him? No. I miss him, and I miss the relationship that we had; but circumstances at that time dictated my/our actions. We both accepted that and moved on.

callie

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 47

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 5:40:04 AM

gypsygrl

Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline

quote:

Ok just discovered that Merc was pulling our leg about the "N" "O" part.. but he doesn't allow her to say No to him. which is not as great as the joke.... but still damn good!

Omg, I'm so grateful for the clarification. I read it originally as a joke, and thought it was really funny because, in my mind, it illuminated how ludicrous an excessively formal approach to things can get. Then I realized people were taking it seriously so I thought maybe it was meant seriously and it kind of depressed me. :)

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 48

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 6:17:55 AM

BeingChewsie

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

Quick reply:

I wouldn't get into an obey or leave dynamic. Most people do not want to be owners, they want to be service receivers. If they have to dominate anyone the dynamic falls to pieces, because they can't. Emotional blackmail of obey or you are gone is the best they can do. I'd take that as a sign that no dominant lived there, thank my lucky stars I figured it out and glady take my leave. Anybody can attempt to control someone with threats of abandonment, I'd hardly call people who do dominant though.

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to gypsygrl)

Post #: 49

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 6:32:14 AM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

Good morning Chewsie,

Excellent point. The assumption through this thread has seemed to suggest that the option to disobey positively exists in every case. Not every dynamic works this way. I've never instituted an 'obey or leave' rule, simply because in doing so I have shouldered the burden of domination onto the slave. It isn't her job to be my slave, I see it as my job to make her my slave. Rest assured, this doesn't mean I'm doing 'all of the work.'

Morning Rabbit. I wanted to pose the reverse question, that seems to have been lost in the shuffle. Would you, as a dominant, give an instruction you are mostly confident that your slave will disobey? Would you willingly terminate your own relationship, by giving her an instruction that you know full well will end the relationship?

I ask, because I've always known in giving an instruction, if the slave was capable or willing to obey. The question of 'if' she will obey, has never crossed my mind. It would seem in asking something of a slave I know she would disobey, I am just as guilty of the failure of such a 'black and white' situation as she is.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to BeingChewsie)

Post #: 50

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 7:29:59 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

I'm not sure one disobedience automatically means the dynamic has been broken. I remember reading a while back about a slave who went off for her yearly mammogram and was immediately scheduled for needle biopsy as they saw a suspicious shadow. She got home and her Master immediately told her he was going to cane her breasts hard.

She refused, disobeyed, etc. He got angry and they stopped talking for several days while he waited for her to come crawling topless and with the cane in her mouth. She was too upset to be able to open a conversation when she got home and he was all upset at being refused and wouldn't talk to her. He refused to listen when she tried to explain and finally discovered the truth when he eavesdropped on her phone call to her sister asking for support during the biopsy.

In that situation, who was wrong? A woman terrified of having breast cancer and having her breasts removed or a master who couldn't get over himself long enough to notice that his life partner of several years was in need?

Communication and support to get her to talk to him and explain why she was acting out of character would have been highly preferable to the damage he did to the relationship.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 51

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 8:24:57 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile
My mind is spinning now...
Tonight is the night I finally learn or discover the truth, this folllows up with my earlier posting on this thread, and a couple of threads I've created in the last couple of monthes.

As fate would have it, this one I've been having a struggle with is "Married", however she's had a bad abusive marriage and her husband has terminal cancer. She has been dealing with a lot and not sharing all this with me. All of which I know is not good, to be lied to. However, this brings complete and suddenly clarity to everything. Like I tried to tell her a 100 times over, the truth always comes out eventually.

There are some many thoughts on my mind at this hour it's not funny. Within the last couple of weeks I did met somebody new that has caught my attention, and even interests. Yes, somebody I really like.

There's a lot that can be said for closing and opening doors in life. Well I got the holy grail truth... my head is spinning. A lot can be said about throwing things away or working past it. A human element of do we give on somebody, completely throw them out of our lives or work past it, perhaps turning it into a simple friendship.

See everything about this is a huge screaming blinking red LED billboard sign saying "Not in a place to start a new serious commitment" The mere fact that it's abusive to me says that she needs to choose to stay or leave that situation before she can commit to ANYTHING else.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)

Post #: 52

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 8:50:44 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

The recent thread regarding "SLAVE VS SUB" got me to thinking so I have a hypothetical situation to present to the group regarding an M/S relationship.

For the purposes of this hypothetical situation, I'll need to establish a definition for the dynamic of the M/S relationship. I realize we have a multitude of different styles and dynamics on this forum, but for the parameters of this discussion I am using the most common definition I see which is also my own.

I work off the axion of "Obey or Leave". The contigency that makes my M/S relationship an M/S relationship is that the slave cannot willfully defy me. By willfully defying me, she is saying that she is no longer my slave. Without this contigency, we're simply another vanilla couple.

The hypothetical situation is that you are a Master in such a relationship and the relationship has lasted for several years (This situation wont be hypothetical for all people, of course). Then, one day a problem occurs and the slave willfully defys you.

How would you handle it?

Would you throw away a relationship that has extended years for the sake of perserving your own power/authority?

Or would there be alternative methods you would try to keeping the relationship and dynamic going and intact?

I have more questions than answers from the hypothetical - in particular a specific example of what you mean by willful disobedience would be helpful. Also, whether its sustained because I know that I've had strong initial reactions to a decision or something that once I thought about it softened or changed completely.

But basically I think my owner would try to work through it - we have a lot of years (almost 10) invested in the relationship so I don't think he would release me without a lot of sustained discussion, let alone opportunities to make it right and fix things. I'm not to sure what he would do if we had some issue or decision that I just refused repeatedly to do and made no attempts to change or adjust to him - I think at that point he would release me.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 53

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 12:11:30 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

The recent thread regarding "SLAVE VS SUB" got me to thinking so I have a hypothetical situation to present to the group regarding an M/S relationship.

For the purposes of this hypothetical situation, I'll need to establish a definition for the dynamic of the M/S relationship. I realize we have a multitude of different styles and dynamics on this forum, but for the parameters of this discussion I am using the most common definition I see which is also my own.

I work off the axion of "Obey or Leave". The contigency that makes my M/S relationship an M/S relationship is that the slave cannot willfully defy me. By willfully defying me, she is saying that she is no longer my slave. Without this contigency, we're simply another vanilla couple.

The hypothetical situation is that you are a Master in such a relationship and the relationship has lasted for several years (This situation wont be hypothetical for all people, of course). Then, one day a problem occurs and the slave willfully defys you.

How would you handle it?

Would you throw away a relationship that has extended years for the sake of perserving your own power/authority?

Or would there be alternative methods you would try to keeping the relationship and dynamic going and intact?

Interesting discussion. I've stated before that in the D/s relationships I have had that I had simple rules and based those relationships on trust and honesty and communication. The basic premise was that there was room for one boss.

As Knight mentioned and Kyra expounded on, I see a difference between willful disobedience and refusal to obey. In my D/s relationship with hard limits, my giving an order to my submissive to do something that goes against her hard limits and having her say "No" would not be considered willful disobedience, it would be a refusal to obey an "illegal" order (just as soldiers are allowed to refuse to obey an order that they know is illegal). Balking (hesitating) at performing a "legal" order is not disobedience, it is a hesitation and an indication that some discussion needs to take place.

Sometimes, what is occurring can be mistaken by a dominant too full of himself as the submissive/slave not following through on the order given when, in all actuality, there is a perfectly legitimate reason. Celeste gives an example on here and has done so on another thread (I believe it was Celeste herself who was late, not due to carelessness or neglect of Himself's order but due to a bridge being washed out). A dominant/master lashing out too quickly in this situation would certainly do damage...perhaps irreparable...to the relationship.

But...willful disobedience...having full information at hand, understanding it, knowing the order does not "break" limits, knowing that it can be carried out and is expected to be, etc., etc....wherein you look at the dominant/master and say "no" is a serious situation and it does harm the dynamic, just as infidelity would.

While my own individual point of view is to sit down and discuss exactly what is going on, I too would feel that there had better be a damn good reason for the willful disobedience and as to whether or not it could be worked through...I too see it as akin to cheating. I also recognize that willful disobedience is an indication (symptom) of a deeper problem that has been brewing for awhile, in all likelihood. Of course at that point, could one also point to the lack of communication in regards to what has been going on inside the submissive as a form of disobedience IF the dominant has remained open to communication all along? ( Of course, if he has not, then he has performed his own failure and may be experiencing a form of karmic payback).
I have no desire to throw away a long-term relationship but it seems that, while there are those who can understand the idea of fidelity and who apprecxiate the idea of it being a cornerstone to the foundation of a successful relationship; they are not desirous of having it broken and they would not be all that "susceptible" to the "I am only human...I was weak" statement.; there are fewer who don't think that the statement of "I was weak...I am only human" statement should be an acceptable form of defense to the question of disobedience. Am I one of the few to remember when "obey" was part of the vows couples made to each other as in "to love, honor, and obey?" While it may have been wiped out from the typical modern, vanilla marriage or commitment ceremony, is there any good reason why it should also be wiped out from a D/s or M/s relationship?

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 54

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 2:06:36 PM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

I have had a lot of thoughts about this. Disobedience itself, has never been and wouldn't be a cause for ending my relationship.......but it could be. It would depend on the circumstances.

I DO disobey, I will likely always disobey...I do break rules and I could never say, honestly, that I will always keep to them.
Rules are for my benefit and mine alone. If I break them, there's a penalty, along with the fact that I have lost the benefit I would have gained from having more self-control at the time.

There's a major difference, in my relationship, between this and disobeying out of a total lack of respect for HIM and his authority. If he asks something of me, he knows I will do my utmost to follow, to the letter. Orders mean something significantly different.

So, rules are guidelines and life is better all round if I keep to them.....but it isn't desperate disaster if I fuck-up, but a major challenge to an order or to his authority would undermine everything.

agirl

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 55

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 2:59:16 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

MadRabbit:

If one does make that strict regulation that direct defiance will not be tolerated (and the girl/slave agrees) and it would mean a goodbye then He (the Master) better mean it when he says that. To allow it, enable it twice, thrice, only makes one realize that whatever the battle, it might be outright defiance only to achieve her 'toss' from your life. If it does become a burdensome game as this is it really M/s anymore or a struggle for top status or equality?

I tend to agree with you from this perspective. This is why I tend to view the axion of "Obey or Leave" as an understanding of the relationship, and not as an ultimateum. More of the "two people working together to make a relationship work" as opposed to "I am the one in power and I will leave you if you disobey". The latter implys tends to imply that the whole relationship it self is a struggle.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to came4U)

Post #: 56

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 3:03:19 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Morning Rabbit. I wanted to pose the reverse question, that seems to have been lost in the shuffle. Would you, as a dominant, give an instruction you are mostly confident that your slave will disobey? Would you willingly terminate your own relationship, by giving her an instruction that you know full well will end the relationship?

I ask, because I've always known in giving an instruction, if the slave was capable or willing to obey. The question of 'if' she will obey, has never crossed my mind. It would seem in asking something of a slave I know she would disobey, I am just as guilty of the failure of such a 'black and white' situation as she is.

Stephan

That is a really excellent point and no, I wont give an order that crossed a boundary or blame them for not following threw with something that they couldnt do.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 57

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 3:05:27 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

Thanks to everyone who has replied.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 58

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 3:06:49 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
This is why I tend to view the axion of "Obey or Leave" as an understanding of the relationship, and not as an ultimateum. More of the "two people working together to make a relationship work" as opposed to "I am the one in power and I will leave you if you disobey". The latter implys tends to imply that the whole relationship it self is a struggle.

I am curious how you get to "two people working together" from "Obey or Leave".

When two people "work together", there is movement from both people towards the other (I submit this is true by definition). Such movement, to my way of thinking, requires a middle ground of some kind...in effect, a third outcome, a third alternative to the draconian dictum of "Obey or Leave".

Where is the bilateral movement in "Obey or Leave"? What is the third alternative this dictum establishes?

_____________________________

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 59

RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/27/2007 3:14:38 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
This is why I tend to view the axion of "Obey or Leave" as an understanding of the relationship, and not as an ultimateum. More of the "two people working together to make a relationship work" as opposed to "I am the one in power and I will leave you if you disobey". The latter implys tends to imply that the whole relationship it self is a struggle.

I am curious how you get to "two people working together" from "Obey or Leave".

When two people "work together", there is movement from both people towards the other (I submit this is true by definition). Such movement, to my way of thinking, requires a middle ground of some kind...in effect, a third outcome, a third alternative to the draconian dictum of "Obey or Leave".

Where is the bilateral movement in "Obey or Leave"? What is the third alternative this dictum establishes?

I actually referred to that axion as an "understanding of the relationship". The second sentence was just explaining more of my own viewpoint on the relationship and not directly connected to that axion.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 60

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