RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" syndrome in check?

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RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:16:33 AM

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~fr~
I consider the Knight in Shining Armor mindset as a kink of some dominants and submissives. The sub wants to be rescued and the dom has that particular kink. It does zero for me, but if people get off on it, good for them. I don't like the way it perpetuates the thinking that submissives are weak and childlike, but some are, so that works too.

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RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:16:52 AM

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Early on in a relationship, I’ll listen to her tales of woe about how she has been scared, threatened, misused and how all this has affected her. I’ll be a sympathetic gee whiz ear. But if someone I barely know thinks I’m going to take on Bubba Dom for her, hahaha.

Like the interminable blather we get from the mentor proponents on other threads, just because a submissive believes a Dom should protect against the evil empire doesn't make it so.

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RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:18:56 AM

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Bob,

How can you be so wonderful AND modest? I mean being psychic as well as having the ability to read emotions on a child's face, they are usually so expressionless and hide their emotions so well. As for people giving off subtle clues with this thing you call "body language" can you explain that to us people who aren't psychic? How lucky we all are to have someone with your enormous gifts among us.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:20:37 AM

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SimplyMichael: I like your note that there can sometimes be a fine line between rescuing and enabling, and that sometimes it can be hard to tell what to do, and at times, just walking away can be the best thing for the person (and for the Dom as well). I appreciated your entire reply.

I also am glad your dad taught you to intervene when some guy is hitting a woman. There is no question when a woman is like 5'5" and 110 pounds and the guy is 6' and 220. But even with a bigger woman, men are just more muscular - they basically ahve 1/3 (at least) more muscle than a woman and females are almost always gonna lose the fight - unless the are a pro wrestler, or something, and the guy is a complete wimp. Of course you know this, so dunno why I am going on and on about it - I forgot to mention that as something I consider a definite exception. In the case of a woman getting beaten up, I don't consider it un-necessary for a man to step in and help (should have clarified that in my opening post).

Ex-Steel: Thank you (and I agree with you on many of the Mentor threads, hehe).

KatyLied: Thanks for the reply. I don't like being treated like a helpless child either.

Bobkgin: Thanks for elaborating on your repsonse. I appreciated what you said very much.

I am not sure why I made this question - it was just something I was thinking about, I guess. Dunno why.

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 8:49:27 AM >

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"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:27:06 AM

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Due to a recent visit by my favorite moderator...I must bite my tongue...There are people out here who obviously troll for subs who feel they need to be saved by promoting themselves as being the cure all....Michael is 100% correct. This type of person really creeps me out...I have found that they rarely have their own life in any type of order.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 9/5/2007 8:34:08 AM >

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RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:31:14 AM

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domiguy: I usually take you seriously because there is usually a grain of seriousness (and an astute reply, IMO) in your posts, somewhere. The rest I just attribute to your personal charm...and I very much agree with you re: What you just said about the topic.

I agree there can be a fine line sometimes - and it might be hard to judge when to step in, and when not to do that except in the case of observing physical abuse, as was mentioned, IMO).

Maybe KatyLied is right - maybe this has evolved into its own separate "kink" - Rescuing and being distressed. I admit I can idolize someone I care for, but overall, I prefer to be in an adult relationship where the other person respects that I can stand on my own, if needed, and when they often expect me to do it. But I like knowing I can get advice (or a hug) if I need it, too.

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 8:50:13 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to domiguy)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:33:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

I guess what I am saying is a mental healthy dominant never believes their essence can rescue or fix another person and there is a very big difference in wanting to help a person you care for and thinking yourself to be so that that you can fix/rescue another person.

Thank you, Toservez. You helped to shed some light on this subject for me.

I retained the above quote and highlighted the words "rescue" because This was the one area which is either unclear or a disagreement.

Sometimes a person -can- rescue another, or at least the attempt seems to be worth making.

Consider the responses given to the individual who posted the "When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? " in the "Ask a Master" forum.

Seems to me most people (including me) felt a need to offer her some firm advice regarding the situation she described.

It is not too hard to characterize their efforts as attempts to "rescue" her from what appears to be a bad situation.

One thing I've noticed about bdsm 'communities', we are very quick to defend anyone whose self-esteem seems to be under attack by a "dom". While some will talk of drama-queens (and sometimes they are right), it does not seem to be a natural inclination amongst most to assume that is the case.

If you recall the "Perils of Pauline" or the more recent "Dudley Doright of the Mounties" (which in many ways mimicked the Perils of Pauline) it isn't hard to see that bdsm itself contains the concept of "rescue". After-play often mimics the way in which we would handle trauma victims. The dom transforms from Snidely Whiplash during the scene to Dudley Doright after the scene.

The elements exist.

The problem as I see it would be if the individual is a victim of their own machinations/world-view where they simply cannot permit themselves to resolve/escape the situation where they feel victimized.

That's just unhealthy, and aside from the willing effort of the individual to overcome that complex I don't see that there is a lot anyone can do for them.

I suspect this is a lesson they learned in childhood to attract attention.

But I don't believe I'd make that my first assumption. I'd offer help, and through investigating the problem this would eventually become clear. When the individual I am trying to help counters every suggestion with an explanation as to why it won't work, I realize I have no advice to offer and wish them well.

That hasn't happened very often, but perhaps they were amongst those of whom you spoke.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to toservez)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:34:47 AM

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quote:

This type of person really creeps me out...I have found that they rarely have their own life in any type of order.

I agree. And I feel bad for any submissive who is so naive to buy the sort of load of crap that guys like that peddle.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to domiguy)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:42:39 AM

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Bobkgin: Well I think that is one reason it is so good these message boards are here. There are people out there who think that this kind of come-on is normal or acceptable. And maybe to some it is - but most respectable Dominants I know are going to call that kind of come-on or claim by a Dominant (in the thread you referenced) to be total crapola. Like KatyLied said: I do feel for those subs if they buy it - there are going to be some who believe that guy. I wouldn't consider it rescuing to simply tell her he is full of it.

And it is good that she asked the question - and good she got the replies she did. I don't consider that rescuing, I just consider it answering a question. I think to rescue someone - you have to be there one-on-one with the person (or via phone, at least).

And if physical abuse by a third party is happening I don't think it matters (as I mentioned before) whether there is a question you could be enabling someone (who keeps returning to an abuser, say), you need to step in and help stop it. Then later, after you've analyzed the interaction (like BlindDescent said) decide if you'd do it again, and maybe discuss it with siad person.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 8:51:22 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to KatyLied)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:48:25 AM

e01n

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO: Maybe "heroic" was not a good word to use. Maybe I should say just wanting to help her/him?(I just changed the wording of the original question to reflect that, too).

And that's where there's a huge difference in outcomes.

I see someone that's hungry. I would be helping them by asking if they need fed and maybe take them to lunch. I'm acting heroically if I do or exceed this without their input.

Then again, that's what I read out of the original phrasing.

It gives me some satisfaction to see that my actions improve the lives of others. I'm not so arrogant as to believe that everything that I do *does* improve the lives of others or that my ideas are right or are the only ones to be considered.

Same disclaimer: I'm hardly a domly Dom-type dude. YMMV.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:50:22 AM

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I don't approach my slave with the "what can I do for you?" mindset. It's that simple.
That I've done things for him is a wonderful thing. That *we* have learned stuff together is excellent and fun. But I approach the question of ownership with "what are you going to do for me?" And if the person is meant to be owned, that's freeing, exciting, and appropriate, not selfish and bad.

Mutuality of a kind will flow out of that dynamic - there will be opportunities for me to help him and for him to help me, if the relationship is solid. I'm not talking about one-sided exploitation necessarily, but I just don't go looking first for things to "fix" I handle things as they arise and I handle things *with* my cohort, slave or not, as they come.
.

< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 9/5/2007 8:57:00 AM >

(in reply to e01n)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:54:26 AM

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Grlwithboy: A very good point, and I'd think that would mostly be the idea, I agree. I have to wonder why I see the "rescuer" phenomenon more anong Doms than among Dommes - but i do. I am chalking this somewhat up to social conditioning, but i've seen women engage in this type of (what I consider to be) dysfunctinal relating as well.

e01n: I agree that sounds like the difference in a nutshell - but what of the Dominant who decides to "make changes" in his submissive "for her own good"?

They may actually be for her benefit, too. Is this being a "White Knight" in a bad way? I don't think it always has to always be a bad syndrome - but I do see a definite down-side at times. But sometimes it can ahve a good side to it - and this can be where I get cnfused. I guess you really have to knwo and trust someone -because they could maybe manipulate you - and you'd have to trust their motives. But you could figure out whether to trsut them by being with them for awhile first, before committing to them, I'd guess.

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 8:59:39 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Grlwithboy)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:59:33 AM

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Ahhh finally! A topic I can speak with some authority on.

The white knight syndrome has been the cause of most of my anguish in all my early vanilla relationships. In my case, it wasn't arrogance or anything similar. It was a genuine desire to help a damsel in distress.

To keep it in check required some mental discipline on my part. I make a list of what qualities in this person is inspiring my concern. If all the items on my list fall into the category of "distress" and none of them fall into the category of "this is my friend", then I know I'm falling into bad habits and I disassociate myself.

It's unfortunate, but some people out there don't have a problem that they can't blame on something or someone completely beyond their control. "Professional victims" is my term for them and like vampires they will sap you of all the emotional energy you possess.

(in reply to e01n)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:00:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

There is no question when a woman is like 5'5" and 110 pounds and the guy is 6' and 220. But even with a bigger woman, men are just more muscular - they basically ahve 1/3 (at least) more muscle than a woman and females are almost always gonna lose the fight - unless the are a pro wrestler, or something, and the guy is a complete wimp. Of course you know this, so dunno why I am going on and on about it - I forgot to mention that as something I consider a definite exception. In the case of a woman getting beaten up, I don't consider it un-necessary for a man to step in and help (should have clarified that in my opening post).

...

I don't like being treated like a helpless child either.

I find these two statements to be in conflict.

Bruce Lee was neither 6' nor 220 lbs, yet could take down men much larger than himself.

If one does not want to be a helpless child, and does not want to be beholden to the big burly dom, it seems to me to be a logical choice to learn a martial art or two so that if this situation were to occur you wouldn't need to rely on anyone but yourself.

Men are going to jump to the "rescue" as long as women retain a mind-set that says "I'm just a woman, I can't defend myself".

It is not such a giant leap to go from that scenario to jumping to the "rescue" of a woman complaining that because she's "just a submissive woman" she can't hold her own against a male dom assaulting her verbally, etc.

It seems in some situations we men are asked to believe "I am woman, hear me roar" in some situations while at others we are expected to believe "I'm just a woman and can't protect myself against X".

I suspect the revolution for women is not yet complete.

I can't recall the last time I heard a man say "I'm just a man and can't protect myself ...".

Perhaps the reason there are men running to the rescue of women is that there are some women willing to use the stereotypical "helpless woman" icon to lure them in.

Some of us were taught that a gentleman always come to the aid of a lady in distress.

Perhaps when the revolution is completed none of us will use our gender as a way of getting attention.

But it doesn't appear to me that we're there yet.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:01:09 AM

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Great answer and a good method, TheIronOrchid! Thank you so much! Two columns on a piece of paper. In what circumstances am I doing X_ to help this person beacuse they are a friend, and in what because this person is a "helpless damsel in distress who desperately needs help? Good method.

Bobkgin: Okay I was wrong about a man always always beig physically stronger. I know there are exceptions to that (there are always exceptions). I just wasn't referring to the exceptions. Actually I disagree with you about the rest - Dommes are evidence to me that mind-set isn't always at play - in fact I see many Dommes who appear (to me) to be very protective of their male submissives. I am a Switch, and don't employ that mind-set that often (expecting to be protected form "everything" - even as a submissive. I see plenty of femsubs who I think do that, but I see plenty who don't use it, as well.

I think it helps to differentiate what we are discussing. if we haven't - it's probably my fault. I appreciate a "shoulder to lean on" and decent advice if I am in a circumstance I feel I could use help with - and there are many times, I'd rather figure things out myself. If I ask for help (like e01n mentioned) and someone is there with good advice I appreciate it. Or a hug if I need one.

**What can scare me is the idea there are Doms out there who would actually give pretty bad or mediocre advice (maybe no on piurpose, of course), but insist someone take it anyway. What about them? I am meaning no disrespect to Dominants - and realize everyone is only human, etc. - but face it, those people exist.

They are going to think their advice so so good is should be patented - but it's actually not that great. I can differentiate between teh two (but in some cases, if someone is particularly vulnerable, they might not be able to do this). I guess you really have to get to know someone - and people have to be willing to admt their own limitations.

I mean, if I needed advice in a particular area of expertise, and someone pretended to have that expertise, when they didn't (like a profession) - that would just blow my faith in them. I remember once soneone giving me medical advice, and they had no business at all doing it. I just stopped corresponding with them. It scared me they'd risk my health that way.

The above idea can scare me - because I've read people pontificating on almost any topic you could name - but what if they're wrong? But they don't know it, or could never fathom being wrong?

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 9:37:50 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to TheIronOrchid)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:11:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Great answer and a good method, TheIronOrchid! Thank you so much! Two columns on a piece of paper. In what circumstances am I doing X_ to help this person beacuse they are a friend, and in what because this person is a "helpless damsel in distress who desperately needs help? Good method.

Bobkgin: Okay I was wrong abotu a man always always beig physically stronger. I know there are exceptions to that (there are always exceptions). I just wasn't referring to the exceptions. Actually I disagree with you about the rest - Dommes are evidence to me that mind-set isn't always at play - in fact i see many Dommes who appear (to me) to be ver protective of their male submissives. I am a Switch, and don't employ that mind-set that often - even as a submissive. I see plenty of femsubs who Ii think do it, but plenty who don't use it, as well.

- Susan

I'm a Domme and I definitely employ gender, sex appeal (what I've got of it) and behavior coded "feminine" which you and I and every girl gets indcotrinated with from the fist spank on the bottom when you pop out and they see girl parts to get attention, approval, notice, etc.

Guys do the same thing with their guy training.

The *way* in which one does this and the degree is really the issue. It's not an "if." Even if you reject that stance in one instance you will embrace it on levels you may not even notice. That's some serious programming.

I'm just really leery of any kind of commentary that implies that being a Domme is somehow more feminist a stance than not. You can be totally reactionary and into really old modes of "womanhood" and still like control in bed and control of your partner. Domestic Discipline relationships squick me bad from a seventies kid feminist perspective because of the way being a Lady is so emphasized and how a lot of DD'ers define that.

It's a little old school for me. They're Dommes, no doubt, but very hidebound in that old school Feminine.

< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 9/5/2007 9:17:25 AM >

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:12:57 AM

e01n

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO: e01n: I agree that sounds like the difference in a nutshell - but what of the Dominant who decides to "make changes" in his submissive "for her own good"?

In hermetic magic, creating change in another without their consent (even if it's for good or healing) is one of the basic definitions of Black (read: Evil) Magic. Right up there with death curses, raising the living dead and sodomizing demons...

That's just my view of it.

Not to say that I don't fall into the hole myself: almost tricked myself into tell Her "no" to us because I could see my jealousy as relationship poison and that I should leave "for the best of all of Us"... And then I talked to Her. Amazing how quickly that fear falls away in the light of communication....

But I should also say that I've been known to sodomize more than a few demons in my time... and I'm still mostly in favor of it.

YMMV.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:13:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Great answer and a good method, TheIronOrchid! Thank you so much! Two columns on a piece of paper. In what circumstances am I doing X_ to help this person beacuse they are a friend, and in what because this person is a "helpless damsel in distress who desperately needs help? Good method.

- Susan

<*Orchid takes a pat on the head from Susan, smiles broadly, and sips his coffee*>

Thank you

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:15:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Bobkgin: Okay I was wrong. I know there are excpetions (there are always exceptions). I just wasn't referring to the exceptions. Actually i disagree with you - Dommes are evidence to me that mind-set isn't always at play. I am a switch, and don't employ is oftne even as a submissive. see plenty of subs who i think do it, but plenty who don't as well.

I wasn't suggesting all women do this. Just enough to keep the behaviour going on.

Another thought crossed my mind.

I've noticed a number of individuals here are more than willing to thrash any male d/m who even hints at a complaint he might have. I was told repeatedly how "unbecoming" it is for a male master to "whine".

Seems ot me this feeds right into the "male dom to the rescue" icon, as it tries to claim that male masters/doms suck it up and keep going with never a complaint: the strong silent type.

Totally invalidates the idea that male doms are people too, that they, like anyone else, can have grievances, and that they, like anyone else, has a right to air those grievances.

Seems to me this sets up a double-standard, where females subs can complain and be 'rescued', while any male dom who complains should not be relied upon during a difficult situation because he "whines".

As long as double-standards like that exist, men will be encouraged to see only women as the ones in need of rescue, and that any man with a complaint is simply a 'sissy' who has little if any grasp on what it means to be a "man".

Some men are not "macho". Nor is machismo required to be a master.

Gender roles are in a high state of flux these days, and anyone trying to stereotype either females as helpless or men as macho is feeding into the problem your OP described, in my opinion.

< Message edited by Bobkgin -- 9/5/2007 9:16:50 AM >

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:25:30 AM

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Many years ago I ran into one of these "White Knights" in the Vanilla world. I jokeing refer to him as Lancelot when I talk to my best friend about him, she knows him too. Ive known him for several years sometimes closly usualy just as someone in the same social group. He is Very handsome, long dark hair, clasicaly cute a bit on the short side 5'3 maybe. Overall he is a very good man, a decent friend, a careing lover (yes I know from presonal experience), but any time I didnt have problems, he was anxious to move on, he ususaly managed to do so in a gentle way staying friends. Ive seen him since then at many social gatherings, usually in a quiet corner with a girl crying into his shulder. He was always the first one around when somone (anyone) needed his help. He never seems to have a girlfriend and hes only ever had one relationship lasting longer then a year that I know of and that when he was a colledge student. Hes now in his late 30s. At one point I tried to date him (no major life issures for me at the time) and I found him to be very emotianaly unavailable, he claimed he wanted to not be tied down. He is also one of the few men I know capeable of flirting with a whole room full of girls all at once with no one feeling left out. (unless they want more then a smile or kiss in the corner anyway) I feel bad for him, becouse I know that if he keeps up this pattern he will never be able to enjoy the kind of close relationship I have with my Husband/Master. I do wish him the best becouse I think in his heart he means well. I ocasionaly wonder if he is consious of the fact that he is attracted to "damsels in distress". Maybe sometime if I run into him again I'll ask him. Of course I havent mentioned his real name and its not likely that he would be on this site. I just think this was the type of gentleman the OP was refering to. Hopefuly the bit of personality sketch would help others understand the "White Knight" syndrom as Ive seen it.

(in reply to SusanofO)

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