RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" syndrome in check?

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RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:25:38 AM

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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

Guys do the same thing with their guy training.

I would think that an unsafe assumption these days.

My father died when I was ten. I received my "guy training" from my mother. Perhaps that is why I emphasize helping others and cooperative effort more than (at least) some men.

With a fifty percent divorce rate, I suspect there are a lot of men who learned their "guy stuff" in part, if not entirely, from the women in their lives.

Yet because I've been taught to consider others, to be more helpful, to be more cooperative, I'm condemned for not being a "man" in the way I handle my life.

The urge to stereotype men is no better than the urge to stereotype women.

Both are wrong, because there are many ways of being a man and many ways of being a woman and they can all be valid approaches to being human.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to Grlwithboy)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:25:42 AM

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Grlwithboy: I should, clarify that wasn't what I was referring to - I was referring to a Domme's ability (or desire) to be protective of a male submissive. I see it happen, and more than occasionally. I don't see this as aparticularly feminist stance - but I do see it as a product of some Domme-sub relationships.Bobkgin seemed to be saying he didnt think females ever acted this way in reference to males. I think they do, just maybe less often(and I think it depends to some degree on their BDSM role, in some cases) -

But I agree with you about the basic gender role-playing people are conditioned into using - and Dommes use it as well, to their advantage - as do male Dominants, female subs - about the only ones I see in the BDSM world who might possibly not use it as often are male submissives (but it depends on the individual).

e01n: I agree, I think it's not wise (changing someone, or making them agree to a change they thought would never be "on the table", without their explicit consent).

Bobkgin: I think men should be able to show their feelings. I confess, as a submissive, I'd want someone who i believe has a strong shoulder - even if I dont intend to use it to lean on much. I guess basically I just want a grown-up. I don't want anyone who can't run their own life telling me how to run mine.

Actually I don't think all females do encourage this to a dysfunctional degree. And I also think to elimiante the desire for it completely would erase some of the nice mystique between the sexes that does eixist. Which is why I asked the question. If men and women (at least het ones) aren't different, and aren't attracted, then what are we doing here at all (at least in a M/f context?)

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 10:06:25 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:38:00 AM

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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

**What can scare me is the idea there are Doms out there who would actually give pretty bad or mediocre advice (maybe no on piurpose, of course), but insist someone take it anyway. What about them? I am meaning no disrespect to Dominants - and realize everyone is only human, etc. - but face it, those people exist.

Are you forgetting the hazing I took just a few days ago?

Of course such individuals exist. They can be very loud and very prominent in their assertions that someone they hardly know has all kinds of problems and should be avoided, etc.

One might even describe it as "whining"

In my case, I know myself too well, and under too many trying situations, to be taken in by someone else's proclamations to "know" me and to tell any and all who will listen what is "wrong" with me.

It will happen anyway: the proclamations.

Such behaviour in my opinion simply invalidates their self-professed wisdom.

One should never ignore how much politics and ego-stroking can play a part in such behaviour.

As for what to do with them: my advice has been ignore them.

But you were asking about why people exhibit a need to "rescue" submissives. You might ask them why they felt the need to "rescue" everyone in the audience from me.

I really can't think of a clearer case of the "white knight" syndrome.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:40:16 AM

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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Nights in white satin,
Never reaching the end,
Letters Ive written,
Never meaning to send.

Beauty Id always missed
With these eyes before,
Just what the truth is
I cant say anymore.

cause I love you,
Yes, I love you,
Oh, how, I love you.

Gazing at people,
Some hand in hand,
Just what Im going thru
They can understand.

Some try to tell me
Thoughts they cannot defend,
Just what you want to be
You will be in the end,

And I love you,
Yes, I love you,
Oh, how, I love you.
Oh, how, I love you.

Nights in white satin,
Never reaching the end,
Letters Ive written,
Never meaning to send.

Beauty Id always missed
With these eyes before,
Just what the truth is
I cant say anymore.

cause I love you,
Yes, I love you,
Oh, how, I love you.
Oh, how, I love you.

cause I love you,
Yes, I love you,
Oh, how, I love you.
Oh, how, I love you.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:44:39 AM

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I'll own up to wanting a rescuer on rare occasion when I'm having a bad day and want some comfort and to get back in touch with the fact the world isn't just a bunch of selfish jerks all trying to one-up eachother. But at the same time, when you don't want to be 'saved' it gets really frustrating, and sometimes even insulting to have someone try and rescue you. Implying that you are unable to do things on your own, or couldn't possibly want to try and stand on your own feet and tackle the bull with nothing more than your little red cape.
From my side of the fence, whether it's D/s or just vanilla, I draw the line when it is no longer an offer of help, but becomes an expectation. I'm a big girl, I will ask for help when I need it, but otherwise, let me collect my scraped knees and shed my tears so I can grow.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:44:42 AM

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Bobkgin: I wasn't referring to you (really). It was a general comment only.

mnottertail: I always loved The Moody Blues, and that song in particular.

ProlificNeeds: I can appreciate versions of it when I feel it's ben a rough day, or time, too - it's when it gets dysfunctionl and-or is unsolicited I think it gets dangerous (for me) - especially if I am in a vulnerable spot. Usually those times (at least lately) I go into Switch mode (just in self-defense) but I don't always feel "Domme"-like (or want to be).

witchywoman313: Thanks for the personal story in your reply.

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 9:54:15 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:47:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Maybe "heroic" was not a good word to use. Maybe I should say just wanting to help her/him?(I just changed the wording of the original question to reflect that, too).

- Susan

Susan: Why do we have to give "helping someone" a grand title? Maybe people who care about each other help one another at times. It can be unhealthy, of course - but why label it as a negative, just because sometimes "helping" goes too far?

What about "slaves"? Those who serve worship kneel offer that 'gift' and are oh so humble?
Could that be a syndrome as well? Can it go too far? Could it be that they are in fact over servicing to "rescue" a dominant? I think so.

Thanks for another thoughtful topic. You are obviously a very bright woman.
Just maybe thinking too much spins the brightest in circles and they find themselves lost?

( I mean this in a kind way. Please, no offense meant. I just used to think too much.. )

All the best to you -
leatherette

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:50:12 AM

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deleted

< Message edited by Dominatist -- 9/5/2007 9:51:31 AM >

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:51:30 AM

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leatherette: Good point. I don't think one needs to necessarly limit their generosity. It's when is it dangerous? that is the question. Ever? I think it can sometimes be if one is trying to relate to a partner who is basically dysfunctional, or who has ulterior motives not in one's best interest, despite all protests to the contrary. But you make a good point about slaves being giving and proud of it. The idea that their service is somehow "less than" has always been ludicrous to me. I think they probably make many Dominants feel very worthwhile, and in that way "rescue" them in a good sense.

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 9:56:03 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to leatherette)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:51:55 AM

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From: All over now in Minnesota
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ProlificNeeds

I'll own up to wanting a rescuer on rare occasion when I'm having a bad day and want some comfort and to get back in touch with the fact the world isn't just a bunch of selfish jerks all trying to one-up eachother. But at the same time, when you don't want to be 'saved' it gets really frustrating, and sometimes even insulting to have someone try and rescue you. Implying that you are unable to do things on your own, or couldn't possibly want to try and stand on your own feet and tackle the bull with nothing more than your little red cape.
From my side of the fence, whether it's D/s or just vanilla, I draw the line when it is no longer an offer of help, but becomes an expectation. I'm a big girl, I will ask for help when I need it, but otherwise, let me collect my scraped knees and shed my tears so I can grow.

I think you make my point better then my rambling. There is a sense of a White Knight that without the person they have focus on is doomed to a bad life/situation. It is really all about them and not the person they are trying to save.

It is normal to want to help the people we like and care about. It is not normal to view others as lesser people that need another person or they are doomed.

It is the difference between wanting to and being able to help and thinking lesser of another and only your own abilities as a person can help. A normal person, including dominants, help a person they value as equals just needing some help, A White Knight judges a person as inferior and attempts to fix them which does not mean equal.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to ProlificNeeds)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:53:43 AM

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i don't really like the phrase "white knight"...anyone can look good in metal armor...it hides your shape...but if you change it to "superhero" its much more effective, because then along with the same basic principle you have visuals of yourself (assuming you're the one trying to be talked out of charching of to rescue some other poor defenseless "insert noun here") in spandex and a cape, possibly with your underware on the outside......that being said...its ok...put down the cape...you don't have to rescue everyone...
personally...my philosophy is...i don't catch people who are falling, physically or figuratively...it only makes me fall too...but i will be the first person to offer a helping hand up, but you have to reach up and grab my hand and hold on...its a two person job...two way street...however you want to put it...i can't do it by myself and if you let me, i won't make you do it by yourself....
but i am just a sub/slave/slut/servant/bottom/masochist (i don't know today), not a Dominant...so maybe it doesn't apply to ya'll

chelle

P.S. Bob...that martyr look is much more fashionable with a cross strapped to your back...worked for at least one other...still talking about him a couple of mellenia later...could work for you too....

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:54:16 AM

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I like witchywomans post. The guy may not realize what he is doing. It just may come natural to him. If you try to change him then you will become the White Knight.

(in reply to witchywoman313)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:54:53 AM

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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Bobkgin: I think men should be able to show their feelings. I confess, as a submissive, I'd want someone who i believe has a strong shoulder - even if I dont intend to use it to lean on much. I guess basically I just want a grown-up. I don't want anyone who can't run their own life telling me how to run mine.

We all face challenges from time to time. That anyone should air a problem or a grievance should not be taken to mean they can't run their life. That is a leap that logic would never sustain.

And Susan, you don't get to be fifty without knowing how to run your life. But there is an enormous difference between running your life and never having a problem with it. Personally I'd prefer the person who talks about it than the one who bottles it up inside until it explodes.

The first is healthy. The latter is repressed hostility waiting for a suitably helpless target upon which it can be unleashed without the hostile individual experiencing any painful consequences.

I've often seen advice about picking out a good d/m: how does he treat those who have less power than he?

Some try to be helpful, some see a ripe opportunity to vent some of their built up hostility.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:55:39 AM

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I steer clear of any woman who needs rescuing.

_____________________________

Boycott Whales!

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 10:01:41 AM

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Bobkgin: I think you are maybe taking personally what I am post as meaning it is about you specifically. It's not. I apologize if you thought so (really). They are general comments. I didn't mean to insinuate that a man showing emotions would mean I'd leap to a conclusion this means he cannot run his own life, as I'd need a few more indicators before I'd draw a conclusion like that about anyone (man or woman). Did I say that? It may have looked that way. Thanks for pointing it out - because it wasn't what I meant. I agree with the rest of your post.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 10:07:23 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Estring)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 10:01:41 AM

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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

P.S. Bob...that martyr look is much more fashionable with a cross strapped to your back...worked for at least one other...still talking about him a couple of mellenia later...could work for you too....

Thanks for making my point, Chelle.

If I talk from first hand knowledge, I'm called a "martyr". If I talk in generalities, I am criticized for not using first hand knowledge.

The need to stereotype for political purposes never ends.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to chellekitty)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 10:02:58 AM

CreativeDominant

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I keep it in check by remembering that while I may be a healthcare provider in my professional life, my personal life is NOT my professional life. I have not had a submissive for over a year. One of the things I have come to recognize in that year was the fact that of the three long-term submissives I have had, 2 of them definitely were in need of rescue. Even my ex needed...to a certain extent...rescuing of a sort when we first met. And it continued on through the years, at the price of a great deal of my own self-esteem and expectations.

With the second submissive, she was not totally honest about the extent of her involvement with (what I thought to be ex-)husband. He was not her ex...and her kids were constantly tugging at her. While we lived apart, I did not deal with it as she kept it well-hidden. But when she came here to live with me, it became glaringly obvious within about 4 weeks. I shouldered this "new obligation" - to help clarify her world and to slay the "dragons" of her kids wants (mommy and daddy back together) and her husband's newly-discovered needs (his wife). What I slowly came to realize was that she wanted ME to be the one to deal with HER issues and to be able to step back...and that I was doing so. When the realization hit...helped along with the weariness of running my own life and dealing with my own issues regarding my DEFINITE ex...I told her plainly that she needed to go home or go away by herself and make some decisions and then follow through on them. Either decide to make her kids and her husband happy and decide that, by doing so, she could make herself happy OR clear all of it away and start fresh, either with me or another, but "fix" it AND herself. I could not do it for her...and did not want to.

With the last submissive, she was in an unsettled time in her life though I did not realize at first that the unsettling revolved around two areas...her job and her child. I kept trying to convince her to relocate to where I am...bring her child along...and "let's build a good life for the two of us". She kept praising my directness and my assurance (thereby stroking my ego) and yet...and yet, she never followed through UNTIL her job stabilized and they promoted her. Then, she decided that rather than ask for a transfer to Colorado, she should stay there and thus, keep her child close to her grandparents. Thanks for the great time and all the help, Creative.

At the end of the last 10 years...96 - 06...I decided I needed to step back and decide what I wanted from D/s and what I wanted to be as a dominant and what I wanted to be as a man. I want to be there for someone...to be the shoulder they can cry on and the one who listens and who makes suggestions and gives commands BUT I do not want to fix your crisis-filled life. I am not a therapist and, even if I was, I am NOT YOUR therapist and I do not want to be. I can be just as helpful as a partner and just as much in charge as a dominant by suggesting/insisting that you get help to deal with the more crucial aspects of your physical/mental/emotional traumas. I can be just as good a partner by supporting you as you seek that help but there again, I do not expect to take someone on who is in immediate need of help of that nature. To put it frankly, I don't want to be the one picking the "wounded handmaiden" up off the battlefield of life and rush her to care while protecting her from all other slings and arrows. I want someone in a fairly stable place in their life who, like everyone, may have some problems...maybe even a few of them serious but who is dealing with them in a responsible manner.

Does that mean I would run from a partner who contracted cancer or some other terminal illness? No. Does that mean that I would run from a partner who, in playing with me in some intense scenes, begins to experience the release of some deep-seated, repressed emotional issues? No. Does that mean I can fix any of those? No. I can support them as others better equipped deal with them. Does it mean I want to take someone who has these things right from the start? No. Call me shallow if need be, but I don't think I am.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 10:05:06 AM

Posts: 1335
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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Bobkgin: I think you are maybe taking personally what I am post as meaning it is about you specifically. It's not. They are general comments. I didn't mean to insinuate that a man showing emotions would mena I'd leap to a conclusion this means he cannot run his own life, as I'd need a few more indicators before I'd draw a conclusion like that about anyone (man or woman). Did I say that? It may have looked that way. Thanks for pointing it out - because it wasn't what I meant. I agree witht the rest of your post.

- Susan

I am not taking this personally, Susan. I believe I have insight into this topic, now that I understand the terminology better.

Thus I contribute my opinions.

But thank you for your reassurances.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 10:06:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheIronOrchid

Ahhh finally! A topic I can speak with some authority on.

The white knight syndrome has been the cause of most of my anguish in all my early vanilla relationships. In my case, it wasn't arrogance or anything similar. It was a genuine desire to help a damsel in distress.

To keep it in check required some mental discipline on my part. I make a list of what qualities in this person is inspiring my concern. If all the items on my list fall into the category of "distress" and none of them fall into the category of "this is my friend", then I know I'm falling into bad habits and I disassociate myself.

It's unfortunate, but some people out there don't have a problem that they can't blame on something or someone completely beyond their control. "Professional victims" is my term for them and like vampires they will sap you of all the emotional energy you possess.

Good post and one I can relate too. I definitely struggled with the rescue syndrome when a youngster. I tend to be very intuitive and empathic and when a kid and teen it was aprticluarly difficult to know when and where to draw the line when I knew someone was in need. I was raised by folks committed to righting social justice so there's always been not just a save the person but save everyone mentality. I now run an environmental nonprofit so still in the family busniess so to speak.

I like the idea of the columns. But I must admit I do not always disassociate - if I see a clear leverage point that might tip someone/thing in a direction that will make a positive difference - and I am sure that the difference will be positive - and I am sure that it will not do me or them harm - then I will go ahead and give the leverage point a nudge. If that does not work then I will likely disassociate and look for some lower hanging fruit. This is kind of the nature of advocacy and slow change.

And then too, LA is right we have to do our own work and perform our own rescue ulitmately. No one can do it for you. I prefer to compare rescue/enable to empower...I know they are just words but I think of empower as being when you give what you have to give that is reasonable (think LCC or LCA emobodied energy, throughput etc) that will help a person be successful. And lots of times it is merely a seed that gets easily sown and the person who planted it and cultivated early on will be long gone when the plant sprouts, blossoms and comes to fruition.

My thesis work was on intentional communities and one of the most common failings for individuals was that the people most attracted to being in intentional community were often those who were the most needy and incapable of providing for themselves - they were seeking a caretaker. The most successful intentional communities I interviewed and studied felt strongly that it actually requires individuals be able to, on average, take care of themselves and the common good - be strong community contributors. They felt that in such a community it is an obligation to be empowered and high functioning and to not be a burden to the community....everyone had a way to make a significant contribution. Now of course there are times of neediness in everyone's lives but even then we can have an outlook and ability to know what kind of support we need and to put it in place such that we do not drain those who are around us.

Illness and death and dying are perhaps the most difficult areas to navigate, and so far in my life care giving for the elderly and dying has been the area as an adult where I tend to get inbalanced...but I step back rearrange and reach for the resources that are almost always around if we pay attention and then replenish.

Finally, at the risk of contradicting myself I am very cautious of getting into a romantic relationship if the needy columne is deep...I definitely want a partner who is as powerful as me. And imo a submissive can be very powerful - just in different ways.

_____________________________

Ocilla

Nature is not a place to visit. It is home.
~ Gary Snyder

It takes a kinky village...

(in reply to TheIronOrchid)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 10:11:43 AM

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CreativeDominant: That was wonderful post.Thank you.

Ocilla: Yours very much, too - Empower is a good word to remmeber. is what any "rescuing" someone is doing going to be empowering?

I appreciate all of the replies, people. I have to go out later this afternoon, but I shall check in later.

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 10:36:22 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to ocilla)

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