RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" syndrome in check?

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RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 6:14:47 PM

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e01n: I just read the Wiki reference. Good analogy for many. Thanks for providing the reference(s) - sounds like an interesting book(s), too.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 6:16:17 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to e01n)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 6:18:34 PM

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I liked this a lot, also:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There is more than a semantic difference when the reference is to a 'white' knight versus a knight. One is a billboard, needing to advertise his grandeur and status by donning the 'white' sheet. Who knows what is below it, or if his self advertised status is earned. Look behind the billboard and you see not only its lack of depth. The knight's shiny white suit only indicates that his primary concern is his 'whiteness'. His whiteness stands out but is not outstanding. The need to reconfirm his whiteness is regularly required because without constant attention and reference the whiteness fades in the face of present action and self contradiction. The white knight serves only his whiteness. It's not a syndrome - but it can be a terminal disease should anyone be influenced by the facade.

Is there strength or cowardice indicated "rescuing" the weak while cowering from a challenge? It would be as if the 'white' knight waited until the dragon was done and he "rescued" the damsel's burnt bones being sure not to get any soot on his suit.

A Dominant doesn't need a suit of any kind or type. A Dominant is at his best naked. He has no "white knight" syndrome because his goal isn't to rescue it is to compliment. Once that complimentary partner is found the Dominant and the submissive form a stronger partnership that in fact 'rescued' them both. Most of the time in obtaining that goal they are both anything but "white".

I do realize that being a "White Knight" isn't always bad, and some people really do need help. I'd never want to eliminate tendency to help people who genuinely need it, or ask for it altogether. But in some cases, I do think it can end up being enabling and that serves the rescuer more than the rescued, sometimes, IMO.

Any and all perspectives on this topic are of course welcome. Thanks for posting, people.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 7:00:26 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:35:44 PM

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~FR~
After reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion, the difference between healthy helping and unhealthy helping is; one believes they can fix someone else, the other understands they can only help promote growth.
k

_____________________________

Life is tough, that does not mean it isn't fair.

There is no wrong choice, only consequence.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:43:11 PM

RRafe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

~FR~
After reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion, the difference between healthy helping and unhealthy helping is; one believes they can fix someone else, the other understands they can only help promote growth.
k

Yes, very good.

(in reply to charmdpetKeira)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:48:17 PM

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As far as I'm concerned there is nothing to fix at all. If a dominant has this "white knight syndrome" it is likely an integrated part of their personality. Trying to push it down or keep it in check does nothing but add un-needed stress and is therefore not healthy for either party in the relationship. If a dominant has this personality trait the logical thing to do is seek out a submissive that seeks this quality. This would likely result in instances of topping from the bottom, but if it fits it fits.

_____________________________

I walk the lonely road,
the only one that I have ever known.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:02:06 PM

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Dear SusanofO, Ladies and Gentlemen;

If I was to be a "White Knight" -- I would be careful of who I was charging in to save and if there was any redeeming qualities to save in the first place.

I am more inclined to give the tools to the person in need of saving, to save themselves. To be their own hero. I don't mind giving a hand up but, giving hand outs in most cases have just drawn good people down and they find themselves swallowed. Perhaps it is the cynical side of me; as habitual individuals in need of saving, rely on others to fix things that the individual should fix themselves. When they really need help--they have worn people down so; that it mirrors the mentality of the "Peter and the Wolf."

I wish I have been paid back for all the times I've loaned money and promises to repay have floated into history. Those who could afford it never paid back; those who least afford paying did--little by little. This includes loaned equipment and or property. I've had over 20 floggers, whips, canes, quirts, paddles and such loaned and never returned. All someone had to do is ask if they could have it and not afford to pay back. I've given more whips away because they couldn't afford it but were honest with me. Now, I have nothing left to give because my bank is empty--in more ways than one.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:15:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

I have found that the dominants as well as submissives that have a solid natural self esteem do not have to worry about this area. There is nothing to control if it does not exist. The dominant recognizing they are in a relationship like everyone else and most relationships we add values to our significant others in some way.

White knights I have found to be very insecure people who need to feel superior to people to boost their self esteem. They want hero worship not a positive and loving relationship. There need to fix up another person is not out of caring for the other but to feed their ego. Even if their target is doing fine they will pick apart them because of a firm belief that that they must believe themselves as superior and therefore must tangible make another person better.

Submissives that fall for these types are the same just on the opposite spectrum and believe the one person will come riding in their life to make everything good. Might be possible two broken people work together but the odds have to be quite long.

We all want to be with someone that boosts our confidence, happiness and wisdom but these are natural byproducts of a healthy relationship and not things another person does a, b and c to/for you and these trait are bestowed on you. My opinion everyone wants to be admired and looked up to and for the people we care about to help them when we can but wanting to be a hero to another is not something you can turn on or off and if a need then I do not think it is controlled.

I guess what I am saying is a mental healthy dominant never believes their essence can rescue or fix another person and there is a very big difference in wanting to help a person you care for and thinking yourself to be so that that you can fix/rescue another person.

I think this white knight medipore is over used. There are those who are just at there core giving caring people who like to try and help. They have no ulterior motive and in fact very high self esteem. Let us not forget it is human nature to want to help and in many cases the person offering help is doing so without expectation.

An example might be I see someone broken down on the side of the road.. If I stop to help am I being a good samaritan or am I building my ego by helping them? It would all depend on the self esteem of the person judging my action. One might say I am just doing the right thing the other might say I am making myself feel better. Who is correct and who is wrong.

The point I am trying to make here is this there is no one stereotype or reason someone tries to help another human being. And lumping all who try to help someone into the same group is just wrong.

Correct or not this is just my opinion and food for thought

_____________________________

this is just my opinion, I do not claim to be an expert on life. I am just Me, Love me or Hate me I really don't care. I am the culmination of my life's experiences. I am an ever changing block of clay molded by life's experiences on a daily basis.

(in reply to toservez)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:18:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hydramaster

As far as I'm concerned there is nothing to fix at all. If a dominant has this "white knight syndrome" it is likely an integrated part of their personality. Trying to push it down or keep it in check does nothing but add unneeded stress and is therefore not healthy for either party in the relationship. If a dominant has this personality trait the logical thing to do is seek out a submissive that seeks this quality. This would likely result in instances of topping from the bottom, but if it fits it fits.

What makes you think because a person likes to help others he could be topped from the bottom...that is like saying a Dom who has compassion can not control his submissive because he may understand her needs and feelings.

I have to hear your reason for this assumption.

< Message edited by MstrSkyWoIf -- 9/5/2007 8:19:55 PM >

_____________________________

this is just my opinion, I do not claim to be an expert on life. I am just Me, Love me or Hate me I really don't care. I am the culmination of my life's experiences. I am an ever changing block of clay molded by life's experiences on a daily basis.

(in reply to HydroMaster)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:26:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

~FR~
After reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion, the difference between healthy helping and unhealthy helping is; one believes they can fix someone else, the other understands they can only help promote growth.
k

Yes, very good.

Agreed 100% you can lead a horse to watter but you can not make it drink after it is there.... you can point out the problems all day long to someone but until the one in the middle of the problem sees it they will never get out. No one can save anyone from themselves. All you can do is be there when they are ready for your help....

_____________________________

this is just my opinion, I do not claim to be an expert on life. I am just Me, Love me or Hate me I really don't care. I am the culmination of my life's experiences. I am an ever changing block of clay molded by life's experiences on a daily basis.

(in reply to RRafe)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:28:16 PM

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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

~FR~
After reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion, the difference between healthy helping and unhealthy helping is; one believes they can fix someone else, the other understands they can only help promote growth.
k

To "fix" anyone, growth must be promoted. There is no improvement without change, and change is growth.

The problem with the "white knight" syndrome is it's need to find victims. This can lead it to insist someone is a victim when in fact the individual is not a victim.

In that case, the "white knight" becomes the victimizer, insisting the individual needs help and providing the help the "white knight" insists is required.

But the individual was not a victim until the "white knight" came along and insisted the individual was a victim.

Insisting on giving 'help' when real help is not required nor desired and insisting someone is being victimized when in fact he or she is not a victim clearly demonstrates a belief on the part of the "white knight" that he or she knows better than the individual identified as a "victim".

That demonstrates that the "white knight" syndrome is closely linked to elitism, which in itself is linked to egotism, which is linked to insecurity.

If the "white knight" had no victims to be rescued, the purpose of being a "white knight" would end, and what would be the purpose of life after that which would provide the same ego-gratification of 'saving another victim'?

Being a "white knight" is a trap. The "white knight" ends up inventing victims.

The basic problem with "white knight" syndrome is the inability of the individual to see beyond their "good/evil, black/white" dichotomy. "You're either with us or ag'in us" kind of mentality.

Which is why "white knights" can be found in the form of posses, with kangaroo courts dealing out vigilante justice.

They all want to find victims they can save. That means they also have to find victimizers, even if they have to invent -them-.

After all, you can't invent a "victim" unless you also invent the counterpart: the "victimizer".

And because there are several of them all seeking victims and victimizers, it becomes easy to convince each other they've found one.

Its a self-sustaining delusion.

This isn't to say there aren't real victims and victimizers out there.

But I think most normal folk aren't going out of their way to root them out. They address these situations as they arise.

The "white knight" is addicted: driven by the thrill of drama. The hunt, the chase, the kill, the glory.

Even if they have to enact it on those who are neither victim nor victimizer.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to charmdpetKeira)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:35:40 PM

RRafe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrSkyWoIf

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

~FR~
After reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion, the difference between healthy helping and unhealthy helping is; one believes they can fix someone else, the other understands they can only help promote growth.
k

Yes, very good.

Agreed 100% you can lead a horse to watter but you can not make it drink after it is there.... you can point out the problems all day long to someone but until the one in the middle of the problem sees it they will never get out. No one can save anyone from themselves. All you can do is be there when they are ready for your help....

I just play-I'm burned out on the whole D/s drama. Too many come to places like this for the wrong reason-enablement of a dysfunction. With me, it's just fun-I like fun and interesting sex. The few times I played the white knight in the past, I got burned pretty badly. And came to realize that those who play the hero tend to attract those who seek crutches.

I offer support ONLY to those who have proven worth and value to me-I'm a bastard. And I like being the bastard-it keeps the mosquitoes at bay.

(in reply to MstrSkyWoIf)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:47:21 PM

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hey Bob...you were right...for about 2 minutes every few hours the past two days...when i came back to the collarme boards (away from reality), picked a thread that you had frequently posted to and saw your little kilroy-esc picture...i became obsessed...and then i found another post or logged off the website (and went back to that reality thing) and forgot you existed...sorry you don't rent that much room in my mind...but you do visit way too often...so...thanks...thanks for helping me see that...i can do something about it now that i do...you are abjured...does that make you feel better? oh wait, i don't care...

anywho...just wanted to reitterate....i don't catch people that are falling..it only makes me fall too...i will be the first to offer you a hand up, but you have to take my hand for me to help you....its a limit aka personal boundary i had to set when i found myself with a meth pipe in my mouth trying to get a high i just couldn't get...its a limit that people that have known me for years but not seen the personal growth i have done in the past 5 months don't believe i have...cause i was that superhero...white knight...whatever...protecting the people who were gonna bring me down with them...its a limit thats fucking hard to stand by sometimes because i "know" i "could" do something...but unless i am willing to hogtie people and force them to do what i want...they are gonna do what they want...and when they get loose they are gonna do it anyway...and i have found that if i just sit on my hands and let them know i am there when they are ready it works a whole lot better...solicited advice is listened to a whole lot better than unsolicited lol...

chelle

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:19:00 PM

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Greetings SusanofO
mutual reliance is knowing that you are self sufficient and that the other half is self sufficient but that together we are stronger...that we can talk to one another, literally about anything, that we can exist separately or together, either just fine but that we enjoy living together. Relying on someone you trust, to do what needs to be done after discussions....is completely different that depending on them to fulfill all you want or need. I can stand on My own, and so can she...neither of us needs a crutch...that is probably the best I can do to explain it.

_____________________________

Be Well, Be Careful

Jarl Rmanrr

"the road untravelled is the loneliest." Me
Courage...the ability to overcome obstacles during the course.
"to be insane is to be original!"...Me

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:31:33 PM

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Thanks for elaborating on that, rmanrr - I appreciate it, and I agree. Thanks for posting.

Thanks to everyone else for posting, too!

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to rmanrr)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 9:36:24 PM

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Okay ya big baby, I'll step up. I got it when you posted onsteerpike the antiwhite knight. I think my favorite is the twins who always wore plum. I swear those twins lived in the apartment building next to me in the 80's. They were like the twins if they had never changed out of there bathrobes and slippers. And they had matching supposedly white but unevenly stained shaggy poodles.

The your knightly ways being modeled after Steerpike makes you a scary Dom.....I am glad that SHE is domlier than you cause she gona have to keep you in line! And I hope that SHE does not have a library.

Oh and I kind of liked Flay as a character. But it has been so long since I read the series like 85 or something that I can't remember much of the plot, but the haracters are still pretty crystal. The Queen with the cats and the critters that live in her hair....wow. I definitely find the characters or parts of them in people everyday. Those characters are so well developed that the plot was kind of beside the point.

Okay, how's that? Do you feel better? I am sure you'd of prefered a more pithy response but I still got work to do before I get ot sleep so this is all I got for ya.

Hey, I put a potato joke in the prostitution thread and no one even ackowledged it :-( Thinking I must not have told it right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: e01n

Personally, I'm offended that no one has commented on me dragging Steerpike into this...

At least that should get some rise out of some folks, one would hope!

<voluntarily edited to be nicer to people we don't know>

< Message edited by ocilla -- 9/5/2007 9:38:13 PM >

_____________________________

Ocilla

Nature is not a place to visit. It is home.
~ Gary Snyder

It takes a kinky village...

(in reply to e01n)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 10:16:00 PM

arayofsunshine55

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

How do Dominants keep any tendency to want to be seen as "heroic" (or to be helpful) to a submissive in check for the good of their submissive, and also for themselves?

By not choosing subs who need to be rescued.

There's an interdependency which is lovely in relationships. Which I expect in relationships. But I can well take care of myself and don't need another to swoop in and make everything all right. The nice thing about my partner is that he has in his years of successful relationships, long with women, figured out how to put on hold the need to fix things. I on the other hand am really clear when I don't want someone to fix something for me.

So for me it takes two. Both carry responsibility. Well that is if they want to avoid this. Some really are OK with rescuing and with constantly needing to be rescued.

_____________________________

Sunshine

Is it not most transformative, most earthshaking, to pierce the veils of self-deception and illusion, and crack the eggshell of ignorance, to most intimately encounter oneself? Lama Surya Das

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 10:23:54 PM

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Thanks for the reply. I very much appreciate all of the replies.

I appreciate all of the responses - but how do people tell who genuinely needs a "rescue" and who doesn't? (maybe we've covered that. It's getting late, and it's been a long day for me. My apologies if it has been).

I know I've had one or two instances (or more) in my own life where I was genuinely very upsey at something, or at a loss re: What to do (and I am not a "wimp" , and generally want to stand on my own two feet). Fortunately, I had some people I could turn to for help.

But anyway, I am concerned now that maybe some new people reading this will think ever asking for help is somehow wrong (or maybe I am flatterring myself. And of course , everyone's relationship is different and is none of my business) BUT -

***How do you know if it's a "genuine need" or just someone "crying wolf", or being manipulative?

Experience with the person in question? I am asking if that is the only way to tell - or id people have some "policy they use to judge these situations...

I am all for helping someone in any life-threatening circumstances, regardless - but those aren't the circumstances I am referring to, really. I am talking about other things -like people asking:

-Can you loan me some money?, - Can you help me find a job?, - Can you explain my BDSM inclinations to my relatives?, - Can you help me ward off my ex-husband, or partner, etc. etc.

When is it legitimate to ask for help with, or help a person with these things? Does anybody out there have a "personal rule" they follow re: This question?

I do realize this is a general question, too (I really do).

Thanks for any replies.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 10:31:25 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to arayofsunshine55)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 10:35:14 PM

RRafe

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Advice is fine.

What is being objected to is people who expect to be saved-from themselves. It's a fruitless enterprise, and a drain on those they would like to have enable them. Susan,if you have ever had one of these attach themselves to you-there would be no doubt as to why they are loathed so much.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 10:38:07 PM

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Thanks, I appreciate the reply. I actually had a "Vanilla" friend like that once. I still see her, but not nearly as often as I once did - it was just one never-ending crisis in her life after another, and I just was feeling majorly drained by feeling I had to rescue her from them (most, but not all of these "crises" were self-induced, I might add).

I really tried to help too - with major financial loans, letting her live with me for a time, etc. But her life just got worse, or at least never improved much. It was frustrating, dammit. I felt I was making zero difference.

I am kind of prone to help people, too - which is one reason I asked the question. Sometimes it's legitimate, sometimes not (still today, for me) But I don't seek out people like that - I prefer dealing (generally) with people who can run their own lives, whether they are subs, Doms or "Vanillas". But - if somebody really appears to needs help, I may try to offer it.

In fact, I usually will - but now I look closely at their "history" (if they offer info about it, if they don't I ask). If they are generally irresponsible re: Things like paying bills, moving frequently, having a string of bad relationships, etc. - I say "No" (unless they are at death's door, or something). But it's still not "fool-proof".

In any case, I appreciate all of the replies.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 10:51:26 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to RRafe)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 10:41:18 PM

RRafe

Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
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Well, most sane people would rather have problems solved than created.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Thanks, I appreciate the reply. I actually had a "Vanilla" friend like that once. I still see her, but not nearly as often as I once did - it was just one never-ending crisis in her life after another, and I just was feeling majorly drained by feeling I had to rescue her from them (most, but not all of these "crises" were self-induced, I might add). I realy tried to help too - with major loans, letting her live with me for a time, etc. I am kind of prone to help people, too - which is one reason I asked the question. Sometimes it's legitimate, sometimes not (still today, for me)

In any case, I appreciate all of the replies.

- Susan

(in reply to SusanofO)

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