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The legal side... - 7/14/2005 6:37:51 AM   
KittieSummers


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I'm interested to know, what exactly is legal and illegal in this lifestyle? How much pain is legal? How much servitude is legal/regognised by the law? At what point do we/can we break the law?

I live in England but I'm interesting in both the English and American laws.

Thankyou.

_____________________________

Kittie ~ honoured to be Hers...

Don't try to be a great sub, just be a sub and let history make it's own judgements.

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RE: The legal side... - 7/14/2005 6:58:14 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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It depends on where you live. Even in the USA, different state laws can vary widely on this. I haven't done much serious research into it because I don't really care (as it won't change what I DO) and I've never has serious reason to (no one's ever threatened or brought charges against me).

(in reply to KittieSummers)
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RE: The legal side... - 7/14/2005 7:05:34 AM   
plantlady64


Posts: 755
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Hello There,
Unfortunately the closed mind of our legal system can consider any rough contact illegal, even if you tell them in court it was completely consensual.
Also any slave contract as far as a court is concerned is not worth the paper it's printed on.
It's very hard to convince people this is your will and your choice. Most vanilla court people think either we are nuts, sick, or brainwashed and can't really enjoy the firm affections we so crave without being forced into it somehow. They seem to think they are protecting us from ourselves.
The Doctors here in the USA are actually required to report extreme bruises to Social Services as the assume they are never consensual.

I live my life wide open in my choice to participate in my kinky life. Some look at me like I'm nuts, but most common vanilla people in my life accept this is my choice. I think it would really depend on the Judge that sits in the Chair more than the letter of the law.

I don't think there's any guarantee we could convince the courts things were safe, sane or consensual even if we took lie detector tests.

For me the joy outweighs the risk, and I do what I choose.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne


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RE: The legal side... - 7/14/2005 7:27:47 AM   
perfection20005


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Ditto on what sub Suzanne had to say. No contract is legally binding in BDSM. Most couples agree on how much pain is enough and stop at that point. Owning any slave is illegal, so I guess any amount of servitude would be too much. I serve my Master, and am owned by him. Even though its not worth the paper its written on, I love it

perfection

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RE: The legal side... - 7/15/2005 5:20:00 AM   
slavegarnet


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From: Nottingham
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Hey Kittie, ya know, you could have just asked me on this;

I studied a case in Law where a group of men were arrested, engaging in extreme S&M activities. Even though it was completely consensual, the European Court of Human Rights were able to charge them, as some of what took place was in violation of the Human Rights Act. The decision was that the acts being taken part in were so depraved, that the masochistic participants couldn't possibly have been in their right mind to consent to it. So that's how UK law stands, basically - a violation of the Human Rights Act is a punishable offence, with or without consent.

See you later;
Love, Garnet

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RE: The legal side... - 7/15/2005 6:31:55 PM   
bumblebee


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legality

This thread might help.

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RE: The legal side... - 7/16/2005 9:39:08 AM   
pleasureforHim


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No one can possibly answer your question in a post; or a handbook; you'd need a BDSM Uniform Code; LOL..and that would just cover the USA.

There are different situations to consider. First is the relation between a Master and slave or Dominant and submissive, carried on primarially on private, as a 24/7 relationship...or thereabouts. Here the law in in tension. The US Supreme Court recognises a right to privacy, especially concerning sexual matters carried on in one's bedroom. But the decision was not broad enough to cover sado-masocism. Some states still have crimes of adultery on their books and there has been a rising tide of enforcement. The Violence Against Women Act requires the police to arrest, and the courts to sentence, a man or woman, where the police observe wounds, bruises, etc.. Restraining orders, preventing the couple from reuniting, will be issued per force in most jurisdictions. There is also a long-established body of caselaw that no one can consent to an assault (exceptions being such things as boxing matches).

So, as i have said earlier, the first line of defense is to stay off law enforcement's radar.

The next situation is the dungeon, munch, play party, etc., especially where a "cover charge" is imposed. There is a New Jersey case finding the property owners, who collected the cover charges, guilty of promoting prostitution. The case involved a child's death by drowning in a swimming pool; and that obviously affected the court's judgment...but the decision never mentions the presence of children. It simply says that providing a place for people to engage in BDSM activities in exchange for a fee is promoting prostitiuton. There may be similiar laws/cases in other states. Or exisiting laws/cases may be used to conduct a prosecution. T
T
he bottom line is, do absolutely nothing in a dungeon/munch/play party involving children. Check the tweenies for their driver's licenses, and do not admit the fakes..because the property owner is absolutely liable for the presence of under age kids in the scene. Most dungeons, i am told, hire off-duty police as security. If so, ask one to handle the door and check ID's.

The last situation is the submissive woman or slave wishing to enter a 24/7 relation with a Dom or Master, who also has custody of minor children. Here, the man had best think long and hard. The children may -- must -- never see any evidence of the BDSM side of the relationship; not even so much as the woman calling the man "Master" in their presence. This is because there is a father out there, with visitation rights, who will almost ceratinly freak out if he hears his children are living in a Master/slave or Dom/submissive relationship and at the very least call Human Services and cause all sorts of trouble. i am certainly not saying a woman with children is less desirable, or that such relationships cannot work.

i am saying children -- including minor teenagers --have no place in BDSM.

pleasureforHim


< Message edited by pleasureforHim -- 7/16/2005 9:59:56 AM >

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RE: The legal side... - 7/16/2005 10:32:43 AM   
lonewolf05


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i am not trying to be a trouble maker...

but seriously.....legal smeegal....who really cares?

its not lawful to drive n drink but people do it.
its not lawful to do street drugs. but people do it.
there are hundreds of not legal things. hell, my 3rd ex wife drove around with an expired out of state license..so what? legal smeegal.

does it really matter if bdsm is legal or not? really matter?

i just have to ask....why this is always brought up, ya know?

thanks
the wolf


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"there is no gravity, life sucks!"


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RE: The legal side... - 7/16/2005 11:00:46 AM   
Davesgirl


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My guess is that the OP had some concerns and wanted to get some oppinions or suggestions on things. I know its something, while Im not overly concerned about, I do worry on occassion. If I go to the doctor and they spot a bruise or several, am I going to have CPS at my doorstep and my Master hauled off to jail?

Nothing wrong with becoming informed and staying on top of things. Good information is never a bad thing

(in reply to lonewolf05)
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RE: The legal side... - 7/16/2005 11:12:25 AM   
Phoenixandnika


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From: Aberdeen Maryland
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I agree, the laws on this vary not only State to State but County to County. There are those things that most lifestylers avoid like the plague and other things we keep in the"closet" per say simply because by the nilla world they are not acceptable behavior. My Master and I are very open about our relationship, however there are times we do take caution simply because of the legal ramifications.


Here are some examples of situations we have faced.

In our contract, the first line states : "Let it be known, this document id by no means what so ever a document of legal standing and admissible in a court civil or criminal law. " The reality is in court our contract holds as much legal standing as a peice of tp we wipe with.

A few weeks ago a woman from a forum we belong to at the time threatened to go to the State dept. because I openly state the I am my Masters slave in rl. Her comment was " Slavery is illegal". I had to laugh for several reasons one being this was a Gorean forum.

I am a pain slut at heart. I love the feel of the whip or flogger. When ever my Master uses them especially on my back we are very cautious about bruising and what I wear after the fact. Not because Im ashamed, to me they are marks of something special. However, to most of society they would be demed marks of abuse.




My suggestion is to reseach the laws in your local area most county have sites you can access online. I would also suggest that somethings are meant to be kept private or simply comman knowledge between those in your circle, somethings simply should not be advertised.

Blessed be
nika, Phoenix's dark lil slave



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"Life is neither a bed of roses nor a carpet of thorns, it's just what you make of it."



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RE: The legal side... - 7/16/2005 11:19:23 AM   
lonewolf05


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ohhhhhhhh kayyyyyyyyyyyy


since "I" have not been --in play-- "I" do not KNOW about these things.

thank YOU for telling me. it is just NOT something "I" think about, never having been-there.
i stand corrected.
wolf


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"there is no gravity, life sucks!"


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RE: The legal side... - 7/17/2005 12:35:30 PM   
Vjklander


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In Virginia where I live, oral sex is a class V felony. On both participants. So freakin much for laws. At least the Libertarians are trying to get rid of those laws.

(in reply to lonewolf05)
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RE: The legal side... - 7/17/2005 12:50:20 PM   
stormsfate


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Not anymore...lol. I was behind the times myself on this one until someone pointed out during my impassioned argument that a Supreme Court decision in 2003 superceded state laws on the sodomy issue. I'm glad I can laugh at myself and accept being wrong gracefully...otherwise that discussion would have been embarrassing


best regards,
fate

Edited to add: Lawrence, et al. v. Texas is the case if you want to look it up.

< Message edited by stormsfate -- 7/17/2005 12:52:14 PM >


_____________________________

Vision? What do you know about MY vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions and the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you! Now ask yourself, are you really ready to see that vision? [/size

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RE: The legal side... - 7/17/2005 2:06:39 PM   
pleasureforHim


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Joined: 7/2/2005
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quote:

If I go to the doctor and they spot a bruise or several, am I going to have CPS at my doorstep and my Master hauled off to jail?


There are some reporting requirements imposed on medical personnel; to find out what applies to your jurisdiction, call your local hospital for the poor and ask the "nurse line" this question.

Bruises are generally vague, but some are obviously the result of a closed fist and would, in many jurisdictions, be reported. Bruises on breasts, pussy mound, belly or small of the back would be reportable as well.

Welts would almost always be reportable in those jurisdictions.

This applies to emergency room MDs, nurses, and office MDs and their staff. Using a false ID is one option but then insurance is not available and if the MD or ER cannot collect charges from you, fraud charges may be levied. Additionally, police may be on the scene whilst the exam is on-going and surprise you. Even if you remain silent, they may still charge your Master if you cohabitate. In real life, a prosecution with a reluctant victim is not often brought, but it is not outside the realm of possibility.

So, the first line of defense is "leave no marks".

However, i realise that will not work for everyone. If you live in a reporting jurisdiction, shop around for a MD who will be accepting of your M/s relation and the bruises and welts that result. Seek all your medical attention exclusively from him, unless it's so serious (such as a stroke) that waiting for him would be life-threatening. For example, if you break your arm on a Saturday, wait until his office opens on Monday morning to get it set.

If it were me, i would also contact a criminal attorney and pay a small retainer in exchange for his agreement to represent either party (for an additional fee) at any time, day or night. Obviously, the woman and man involved should say NOTHING to police without the attorney present. Anything said to a medical person is protected by physician-client priviledge in most every situation. However, it is still best not to admit to a medical person who struck the woman.

My best wishes for a safe and happy relationship to all.

pleasureforHim


< Message edited by pleasureforHim -- 7/17/2005 2:08:01 PM >

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RE: The legal side... - 7/17/2005 2:33:48 PM   
domtimothy46176


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From: Dayton, Ohio area
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On a sidebar, Indiana has been known to prosecute over the objections and despite the refusal of the alleged abuse victim to cooperate in any way. The case law rst on the premise that abuse is a crime against the State, if i understand it correctly. Alleged victims of abuse have been threatened with contempt charges for refusing to corroborate police suspicions. And, as has been preiously noted, judges can and will order restraining orders over the objections of both parties.
Although Chicago is just a few hours north of of Indianapolis, they are completely different scenes due to the differences in laws and enforcement.
Timothy
*Note: I don't have any legal training and I can't cite specific cases. My sister worked as a bailiff in Indianapolis and the instances I cite come from her observations and some cases I witnessed personally while waiting to take her out for lunch*

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RE: The legal side... - 7/17/2005 2:45:46 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

On a sidebar, Indiana has been known to prosecute over the objections and despite the refusal of the alleged abuse victim to cooperate in any way. The case law rst on the premise that abuse is a crime against the State, if i understand it correctly.


This actually came to be because Domestic Violence victims were so often more seriously abused after the perpetrator was released from jail following the victim reporting. State governements also cited that there was a great deal of time wasted when police would go out on a Domestic Violence call and the victim would not prosecute out of fear of enraging the perpetrator or because a jail stay on the part of the breadwinner would be financially devastating to the victim and her children. Too often there was police and court time wasted and when the case came to trial the victim would not show up to testify. Some states have now taken the decision to prosecute out of the hands of victims. Michigan is the same way. While it's beginnings had good intentions, it has spiraled a bit out of control.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: The legal side... - 7/17/2005 7:30:07 PM   
Gemeni


Posts: 255
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I'd advise looking into three sets of local laws where you live.

1. Unlawful confinement. This can relate to things like bondage,caging etc.....

2. Domestic violence laws. These cover a great deal,and have become MUCH more comprehensive. The "victim" no longer needs to file charges for the 'assailant" to be taken into custody and charged by the state. I generally avoid heavy impact play that will result in much deep bruising, due to this. You never know when a girl will need medical treatment-and doctors in many locales have to report evidence of violence to the police by law.

3.Slavery? Unless one is running an illegal labor operation with people being forced to work against their will-it's not likely this will be of any real concern. Nosey acquaintances or liberal friends or concerned families MAY be. It's a good idea not to be too "out' those those who don't understand that it's by mutual consent.

Creating "blips" isn't a terribly good idea for those who would be wiser to fly under the radar.


< Message edited by Gemeni -- 7/17/2005 7:31:01 PM >

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RE: The legal side... - 7/17/2005 7:53:38 PM   
CelticPrince


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I really like that thought /. A Uniform Code of D/s Justice

Good thought

CP:

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RE: The legal side... - 7/17/2005 8:40:19 PM   
MistressTabitha


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From: United Kingdom
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Here in the UK, the most talked about case of whats already been asked and discussed is here:

http://www.barnsdle.demon.co.uk/span/span1.html

Mistress Tabitha.

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Pleasure goes hand in hand with pain

Live today as if it were your last

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RE: The legal side... - 7/18/2005 1:20:26 AM   
lonewolf05


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let me ask this 1 question?

this IS just-about-girls, right?

i would doubt anyone, would even blink if a guy had some bruising and such, right?


or is THIS wrong?
(ok 2 questions)


wolf


(in reply to KittieSummers)
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