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RE: The legal side... - 7/18/2005 8:08:29 AM

Gemeni

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Lets face it guy,people are so paranioic these days and full of double standards that I doubt they think a male CAN be abused.

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RE: The legal side... - 7/18/2005 9:45:33 AM

lonewolf05

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thank You Sir. You just strengthened my convictions.

wolf

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RE: The legal side... - 7/18/2005 2:36:20 PM

onceburned

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From: Iowa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemeni
Lets face it guy,people are so paranioic these days and full of double standards that I doubt they think a male CAN be abused.

Actually, I think that double standard, while it still exists, has lessed over the past 30 years.

Slowly (too slowly) but surely, things are getting better.

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RE: The legal side... - 7/19/2005 1:19:49 PM

Handspankingdom

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quote:

My guess is that the OP had some concerns and wanted to get some oppinions or suggestions on things. I know its something, while Im not overly concerned about, I do worry on occassion. If I go to the doctor and they spot a bruise or several, am I going to have CPS at my doorstep and my Master hauled off to jail?

Nothing wrong with becoming informed and staying on top of things. Good information is never a bad thing

Davegirl--- EXCELLENT POINT!

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RE: The legal side... - 7/19/2005 1:27:52 PM

Handspankingdom

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quote:

I'd advise looking into three sets of local laws where you live.

1. Unlawful confinement. This can relate to things like bondage,caging etc.....

2. Domestic violence laws. These cover a great deal,and have become MUCH more comprehensive. The "victim" no longer needs to file charges for the 'assailant" to be taken into custody and charged by the state. I generally avoid heavy impact play that will result in much deep bruising, due to this. You never know when a girl will need medical treatment-and doctors in many locales have to report evidence of violence to the police by law.

3.Slavery? Unless one is running an illegal labor operation with people being forced to work against their will-it's not likely this will be of any real concern. Nosey acquaintances or liberal friends or concerned families MAY be. It's a good idea not to be too "out' those those who don't understand that it's by mutual consent.

Creating "blips" isn't a terribly good idea for those who would be wiser to fly under the radar.

Although I don't engage in extreme play (marking/welts, deep bruising), this is excellent advice Gemeni

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RE: The legal side... - 7/19/2005 4:42:50 PM

QuietMaster4u

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Kittie -
I agree with what everyone else has said so far... But, as I live in a rather close minded society. I take great pleasure in walking my slave (who is also, my wife) on her leash in public. Our first outting, I let a female friend walk her on her leash. While I held the friends hand, we went into a local store. The police officer outside saw instantly and rubbed his eyes in disbelief. But to give him credit, as we were harming no one. He let us be, without any comment or harassment.

We continue to walk together, with her on a leash. Or what we refer to as "free leash", where the leash is attached but I am not holding it. We continue to get strange looks, but have yet to be confronted by any law enforcement.

I wonder if this will change when I have two or more, slaves on leash and collar.

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RE: The legal side... - 7/19/2005 6:56:42 PM

Gemeni

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I think the worst they can ask you to do in that case is get a parade permit guy.

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RE: The legal side... - 7/19/2005 9:25:02 PM

WatersOfCaladan

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I was told by an officer in Arizona to claim First Amendment Rights as a "Performance Artist" can't have their legal rights denied. But that would only be for leash walking and NOTHING else.

Milady

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RE: The legal side... - 10/3/2005 7:53:08 PM

HentaiGamerKitty

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deleted

< Message edited by HentaiGamerKitty -- 10/3/2005 7:54:00 PM >

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RE: The legal side... - 10/3/2005 8:18:03 PM

LadiesBladewing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KittieSummers

I'm interested to know, what exactly is legal and illegal in this lifestyle? How much pain is legal? How much servitude is legal/regognised by the law? At what point do we/can we break the law?

I live in England but I'm interesting in both the English and American laws.

Thankyou.

Though laws vary to some extent, in general, in the United States, any and all BDSM activities are not sanctioned by law. The law tends not to interfere, but if an individual goes to the hospital with marks from a beating, the emergency room personnel are compelled to report it to the police. In my 3 years as a paramedic, nurses or doctors in the ER reported 7 cases that I knew of that were -clearly- consentual BDSM-related injuries. At the time, though, the injured partner had to agree to press charges, and none of them did. These days, a social worker, nurse, physician, physician's assistant or EMT can press charges. Ministers, employers or Human Resources personnel, psychologists, therapists, social workers and massage therapists are also able to file charges of domestic abuse, and hidden biases can put individuals in a BDSM relationship at risk.

Another factor to consider when deciding which activities to participate in is the potential for accidental death. For example, we don't participate in breath control play here, because it is possible for an individual who has never had a problem to drop dead suddenly from breath-control practices. No matter how much we enjoy it, none of us is willing to go through a murder trial and possibly spend the remainder of our lives in jail to participate (not to mention the risks to the recipient even if he or she -doesn't- die, including releasing of blood clots or plaques leading to stroke and progressive brain damage).

Consentual slavery relationships are not recognized unless the couple is legally married, and even signed and notarized contracts will not hold up in court.

Such is the state of the lifestyle in the individualistic, free United States.

Storm

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RE: The legal side... - 10/3/2005 8:37:10 PM

angelic

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this may not have any place in this thread; however it touched on a 'nerve' with me. i have seen situations that i absolutely KNEW were bdsm relationships... things didn't work out for various reasons and the 'submissive' then screamed abuse to strike back at the Master/Boyfriend/Husband.

that sort of behavior truly enrages me and i think in some instances have been a 'reason'
for the lack of 'legal support' or 'social acceptance' of Wwho Wwe are, imho.

*steps down off soapbox*....

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RE: The legal side... - 10/3/2005 8:59:29 PM

LadiesBladewing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

this may not have any place in this thread; however it touched on a 'nerve' with me. i have seen situations that i absolutely KNEW were bdsm relationships... things didn't work out for various reasons and the 'submissive' then screamed abuse to strike back at the Master/Boyfriend/Husband.

that sort of behavior truly enrages me and i think in some instances have been a 'reason'
for the lack of 'legal support' or 'social acceptance' of Wwho Wwe are, imho.

*steps down off soapbox*....

I agree, and find the current state of affairs disconcerting at best and downright infuriating at best. I have the same problem with vanilla situations where there is consentual sex, and the relationship doesn't work out and one individual cries "rape".

As a pastoral counselor, I've encountered a few of these situations. They always leave me frustrated, because if the "wounded" individual doesn't get the answers that he or she wants from me, xhe often runs to the next highest authority, and the other person finds his or her life ruined.

I have had one opportunity to testify as an expert witness in a domestic violence case like this. It was a traumatic experience even though I was testifying on the "right" side, and even with mine and three other experts' testimony, the man in question was jailed. With that being said, this is one reason that I am relatively open about my beliefs and my lifestyle choices. Until people become accustomed to seeing "normal" people who live in alternative situations, juries will continue to rule according to their biases, rather than according to the facts.

Lady Zephyr

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RE: The legal side... - 10/3/2005 9:04:46 PM

angelic

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if i could add to that Ma'am... if when Rrelations end, the resulting hurt didn't end up as being vindictive, ugly and just plain cruel.

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RE: The legal side... - 10/4/2005 6:49:08 AM

night101owl

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In the U.S., slave contracts are illegal, in the sense that the courts will not take any action to enforce them. You haven't committed a crime by writing and signing it-- it just doesn't have the legal effect of a real contract.

When it comes to SM play, there are two branches of the criminal law that might come into play (in the U.S.). First is battery. It is illegal to intentionally commit a harmful and "offensive" "touch" (terms of art). "Touch" just means that there must be some sort of physical contact. "Offensive" is what a reasonable person in those circumstances would consider unwanted. This is the problem-- in many jurisdictions, it does not matter if it was consensual. If a jury can't understand why someone would consent, then it's illegal.

Consent used to be a perfect defense against a charge of battery, though. That is, you would be guilty of committing the offense, but if you could prove consent, then you couldn't be convicted. However, this defense can be blocked if the prosecutor argues that the person who was hit couldn't meaningfully consent (due to fear, etc.).

Under this framework, if you hit someone, you could be subject to criminal charges regardless of that person's consent. As a practical matter, police tend to recognize the difference between BDSM play and abuse, and will only make arrests if the line seems blurry for them (or if there's a political motivation).

The other branch of the law is indecency. Lawrence v. Texas, the Supreme Court case that invalidated an anti-sodomy law on privacy grounds (at least as it applied to two men inside a private house having sex), bulked up our right to privacy in the U.S., but don't expect it to cover sexual play between more than two people, or anywhere outside a private home (the most exclusive private club does not have the status of a home, nor does a residence when open to a party), and don't expect it protect SM. For these purposes, sodomy includes oral, anal, and manual sex. Depending on the laws on the books in your area, kinky sex outside the home can put you at risk.

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RE: The legal side... - 10/4/2005 11:24:18 AM

theRose4U

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quote:

Lets face it guy,people are so paranioic these days and full of double standards that I doubt they think a male CAN be abused.

It kind of depends on where you live & how the laws are written. I know in TX & CO the law is written that both parties can go to jail in a domestic violence situation. Meaning the one with the most physical damage is judged the victim. If there is any question as to who did what both parties get shipped off for the courts to sort out.

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RE: The legal side... - 10/4/2005 1:41:49 PM

Rover

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1. Those that mentioned the laws differ from state to state, and country to country, are quite correct.

2. Informing yourself of any legal liabilities (both criminal and civil) is, in my opinion, part of assessing risk (ie: SSC, RACK or simpy risk vs. reward).

3. Consent is no defense to domestic violence laws, which allow the state to prosecute without a complaintant (ie: domestic violence laws make the act itself illegal).

4. The National Coalition for Sexual Freedom is an advocate for the legal rights of all lifestyles. Their website ( http://www.ncsfreedom.org/ ) is a good source for various legal issues relative to BDSM, and they put on a first class workshop that you might catch at various events.

5. Dr. Gloria Brame has an informative section of her website ( http://gloria-brame.com/domidea/rumpoule.htm ) that skims over some of the legal issues in the US and overseas.

Knowing your legal rights and liabilities is, in my opinion, every bit as important as knowing how to throw a whip, use a knife, etc.

John

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RE: The legal side... - 10/4/2005 10:12:17 PM

FLButtSlut

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Domestic Violence laws have not spiraled out of control. Ask anyone who regularly works helping victims of domestic violence.

Are you so unwilling to exercise a bit of caution in how and when you engage in consenual play to protect someone's sister, mother or daughter from NON consensual abuse?

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RE: The legal side... - 10/5/2005 4:53:03 PM

LadiesBladewing

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My problem with the domestic violence laws as they stand is that they do nothing to take into consideration the occasions when it is -not- domestic violence, but a consentual act between intelligent adults.

I have an issue with any law that presumes to tell me that I don't know well enough when I say yes to something and when I say no, and that I am patently incapable of assessing the risks, benefits, and potential outcomes of the choices that I make.

I spend volunteer hours providing pastoral counseling and assistance to women and children who are victims of domestic violence (unfortunately, where I live there are virtually -no- services for adult MALES who are victims of domestic violence, but a small group of us are working on that). The fact that domestic violence exists does NOT, however, IMO, give the government the right to deny me the opportunity to make choices about consenting to any activity that I find pleasurable. The fact that the laws are written to completely discount the existence of PROVEN consent is completely unreasonable, and does -nothing- to further the protection of individuals who are in domestic violence situations.

Lady Zephyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut

Domestic Violence laws have not spiraled out of control. Ask anyone who regularly works helping victims of domestic violence.

Are you so unwilling to exercise a bit of caution in how and when you engage in consenual play to protect someone's sister, mother or daughter from NON consensual abuse?

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RE: The legal side... - 10/6/2005 9:48:15 AM

FLButtSlut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing

My problem with the domestic violence laws as they stand is that they do nothing to take into consideration the occasions when it is -not- domestic violence, but a consentual act between intelligent adults.

I have an issue with any law that presumes to tell me that I don't know well enough when I say yes to something and when I say no, and that I am patently incapable of assessing the risks, benefits, and potential outcomes of the choices that I make.

I spend volunteer hours providing pastoral counseling and assistance to women and children who are victims of domestic violence (unfortunately, where I live there are virtually -no- services for adult MALES who are victims of domestic violence, but a small group of us are working on that). The fact that domestic violence exists does NOT, however, IMO, give the government the right to deny me the opportunity to make choices about consenting to any activity that I find pleasurable. The fact that the laws are written to completely discount the existence of PROVEN consent is completely unreasonable, and does -nothing- to further the protection of individuals who are in domestic violence situations.

Lady Zephyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut

Domestic Violence laws have not spiraled out of control. Ask anyone who regularly works helping victims of domestic violence.

Are you so unwilling to exercise a bit of caution in how and when you engage in consenual play to protect someone's sister, mother or daughter from NON consensual abuse?

This is where the issue of a "judgement call" on the part of the responder is necessary. Quite easily, (using police as an example), the officer responding could be a participant in the lifestyle and able to assess whether or not the situation is one of consent or not. On the other hand, the officer could have zero knowledge and make a mistake where you have to hope that the issue could be made clear to someone else down the line.

While it would be nice to somehow write the law in a way that enables officials to distinguish between the two, it would be far too difficult to do. For comparison purposes...many agree that doctor assisted suicide has great benefit to those who are suffering terminal illness with zero hope of recovery. However, part of the difficulty in making it allowable by law is in finding a way to protect those who are not able to speak for themselves and have become a "burden" to someone who would rather see them dead. Certainly these assisted suicides do occur, and it is the judgement call of those involved whether or not to provide the means to do so.

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RE: The legal side... - 10/6/2005 12:24:45 PM

night101owl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing
I have an issue with any law that presumes to tell me that I don't know well enough when I say yes to something and when I say no, and that I am patently incapable of assessing the risks, benefits, and potential outcomes of the choices that I make.

It sounds like (and I may be wrong) you're referring to mandatory arrest laws, where the person who was hit does not need to "press charges", because the hitter will be arrested and prosecuted regardless. A lot of people who are advocates for domestic violence victims find these laws problematic as well, because they take away the abuse victim's autonomy in a situation where ze most needs it, and because they may escalate dangerous situations. Mandatory arrest laws are just bad policy, through and through.

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