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RE: The legal side... - 10/7/2005 12:34:43 PM   
LadiesBladewing


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Those are -exactly- the laws that I have an issue with, along with practices that are not "policy" but are pretty much standardized...like telling a jury to disregard any contracts, written and signed copies of service rules, and agreements to consent to edge-play practices performed in clearly consentual conditions, with or without the "victim" having pressed charges.

In the case that I was an expert witness for, the "victim" claimed that she had been imprisoned for 3 years against her will, forbidden even to go to the grocery store without her boyfriend with her. She claimed that she was consistently beaten against her will and raped by the man and even by one of his friends. I'd known the couple as a pastoral counselor for 4 years (before they were even active in the lifestyle, since I knew them because of mutual spiritual organization involvement first), and they were well known in the local BDSM community... a "model" couple in the local lifestyle scene, with the lady often being a "model" for demonstrations. She had pictures of the "public beatings" from these demonstrations as evidence, and the jury was allowed to see them without bench comment, but they were told to IGNORE any comments from the accused's lawyer that included reference to the woman's "slave contract" or "consent agreements" and other "alleged consent-obtaining materials". Also, these items, as well as tape recorded "verbal" agreements and video agreements that were used to obtain consent for many of the public demonstrations were disallowed as evidence by bench edict. This included a SIGNED rules sheet that -required- the slave to handle routine things like shopping (and turning in the receipts to her Owner), personal care (including a bi-weekly session at a spa and daily trips to the gym to maintain her figure and health), attendance without supervision at local slave-group meetings, -and- a monthly "night-out" with friends at her former job WITHOUT her Master's direct supervision or attendance, which was in DIRECT contradiction to the charges.

This was an act of spite on the woman's part, since she'd hooked up with someone else and didn't have the nerve to ask for release, since there was no "release clause" in her contract. The fact that the ruling was a 7 year sentance for kidnapping and battery blew all of our minds, though I suppose we shouldn't have been too terribly surprised. The only thing that saved him from a rape conviction was that she'd apparently sent a letter to a vanilla friend about the "great sex" she was having with this guy, and how she was even able to have sex with other people while she was with him. However, the bench completely discounted this letter as having ANY relationship to the kidnapping and battery charges, even though she was -clearly- happy, in the letter, with being with the guy!!!

I also have to say that I was -really- glad that I'd told my ex-husband (we were separated at the time) about my proclivities and the groups I was involved with years before this, since my legal name at the time was publically listed by the media as one of the "experts" testifying. (I changed my name after my divorce, to the name that I was writing fiction under). I think he would have been...startled...if I hadn't said something up front. *chuckles*

Lady Zephyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: night101owl

It sounds like (and I may be wrong) you're referring to mandatory arrest laws, where the person who was hit does not need to "press charges", because the hitter will be arrested and prosecuted regardless. A lot of people who are advocates for domestic violence victims find these laws problematic as well, because they take away the abuse victim's autonomy in a situation where ze most needs it, and because they may escalate dangerous situations. Mandatory arrest laws are just bad policy, through and through.


< Message edited by LadiesBladewing -- 10/7/2005 12:42:23 PM >

(in reply to night101owl)
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RE: The legal side... - 10/7/2005 8:21:37 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
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Lady Zephyr,

That is indeed a horrible thing to happen. Personally, I think that if something like that happens (or such as the Marcus case in NY), the time that consent was still valid should not count, other than perhaps for indicating activities that occured.

Let me explain it a bit more clearly....

You have a couple who are in a consensual slavery situation, all the ritualistic contracts, rules and such. Things go on for several years, and for whatever reason, the slave decides that they no longer wish to be in this relationship. Such is stated to the master, but the master takes the position of "you agreed to life time ownership, too bad." Slave now feels or perhaps even is trapped and unable to leave the situation.

Without a doubt, not only has "master" proven to be dishonorable and deplorable, but the law is now being broken. Slave gets out and does contact authorities. In a "perfect" world, the master would be prosectuted ONLY for things that occurred after the "I want out" discussion. Everything prior to that was consensual (insofar as following the contract, rules, etc.), everything AFTER that discussion should be prosecuted. Once consent is removed, you are violating that person's rights.

The law is far from perfect. I hate to read stories such as the one you spoke of, but I have read so many others where people are willing to jump and defend a "master" who is being prosecuted, basing their decision soley on the fact that at one point in time consent was given. You were in a situation to know many details about the case in question. More often the people complaining are not in your position.

I am saddened for your friend's troubles, but I still believe that the DV laws are more necessary to those who need them (in fact some addendums are necessary), than they are harmful for those who don't. The goal of society and those laws are to protect those who can't protect themselves. While your friend should likely never have faced prosecution, that case was not based on domestic violence but other issues. Those "annoying" DV laws do help to save lives, not enough, but it is a step in the right direction. Given your work with victims of abuse, as well as your role in the situation you mention, how would you suggest resolving it without putting the victims of real abuse in more danger?

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)
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RE: The legal side... - 10/7/2005 8:53:12 PM   
Raphael


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"The human rights act" is an Orwellian abomination to begin with.


(in reply to slavegarnet)
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RE: The legal side... - 10/7/2005 11:23:16 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
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Certainly protecting a person's rights would be an abomination. Why should anyone have the right to life, free speech, freedom from torture, privacy, liberty, etc.? Have you ever even READ it? European Convention on Human Rights

It would be wonderful if a law could make every single person happy. That is not possible. Laws are enacted to protect the MAJORITY of the population. In this lifestyle, you are not in the majority, you made that choice, just like the rest of us. Eventually, in some areas, those laws will be modified to accomodate lifestyle situations without the detriment to those who aren't in lifestyle situations. Calling them an abomination is nothing short of ignorance of the law.

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RE: The legal side... - 10/7/2005 11:32:11 PM   
Raphael


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Yes, I've read it. Have you? Do you have any understanding of what the phrase 'human right' means?

It's a document written to justify the mass violation of human rights, in the name of human rights. As I said, Orwellian.

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
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RE: The legal side... - 10/7/2005 11:46:57 PM   
FLButtSlut


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it is a document written to PROTECT human rights that came into being after the mass violation of human rights. By your standard ALL laws would be Orwellian.

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RE: The legal side... - 10/8/2005 2:08:48 AM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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I’m not a great believer in Human Rights Laws for one simple reason. They are open to interpretation by Prosecutors and the Judiciary. All to often I’ve witnessed misuse of such legislation because those prosecuting and the judge having strict religious views (often on the extreme right) or are open to political maundering and thus honest justice is out the door. That is just a pert of human nature. The best example of this in this country was way back when the then Prime Minister Goff Whitlam was pressured by the US Govt to sign the International Agreement regarding the rights of children. We already had in place excellent and well working laws. The signing the agreement made it part of our Federal Law. From that day forth all punishment and discipline in schools and homes became illegal. Within one week we saw kids telling teachers to “Get Fucked” with impunity. Violence in schools increased and so we have had a couple of generations of kids growing up with little concept of respect, discipline, self discipline and manners. When they turn 18, they are adults, allowed to drink and drive. Add to this the public campaign when they were growing up to have in your face attitude and you have young adults who are ill mannered, abusive, and many are violent…. Sure such laws work if the spirit of the law is invoked and not just the letter of it..

< Message edited by IronBear -- 10/8/2005 2:09:50 AM >


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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(in reply to FLButtSlut)
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RE: The legal side... - 10/8/2005 4:25:13 AM   
Lordandmaster


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You might be more persuasive if you tried to JUSTIFY this claim. I'm not going to dismiss what you're saying until you explain it a little more clearly; but on the face of it, you have to expect most people to disagree with you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raphael

It's a document written to justify the mass violation of human rights, in the name of human rights. As I said, Orwellian.


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RE: The legal side... - 10/8/2005 9:35:54 AM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut

Given your work with victims of abuse, as well as your role in the situation you mention, how would you suggest resolving it without putting the victims of real abuse in more danger?


The truth is that I don't really -see- an effective solution with the system we currently have in place. The current system is designed to punish everyone, in order to contain the few who act without conscience. It is designed to imprison all of us in a miasma of paperwork, documentation, entitlement mentality, and "guilty until proven innocent" philosophies that discourage any sense of personal responsibility for mistakes, and encourage dependence on the government to tell us our ethical standards.

My solution is way to huge to post here, but if you're interested, feel free to send an email. I'm preparing a dissertation on this, so I'm liable to get -way- too long-winded for a message-board post.

TTYS,
Lady Zephyr

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
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