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RE: RED Flags - 9/14/2007 6:00:29 PM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

The safe word debate seems to be a heated one any time it comes up. I for one think they are very important and a sub should INSIST they be used even when faced with a confident Dom who thinks they are for sissies.

From personal experience I know that even a VERY experienced Dom can misread a sub. I know you guys have loads of experience, and at least from your perspective nothing has ever gone wrong.



This places the emphasis for safety and the responsibility for safe conduct on the back of the submissive being beaten, while not placing any responsibility on the back of the dom/me doing the beating ... until the safe word is used and the damage done.

At which point the dom/me can argue with the submissive about whether the safe word should have been used or not.

After all, short of actual injury, it can always be argued that a submissive used a safe word unnecessarily.

And while such arguments might not work on the most experienced of submissives it can work quite effectively on less-experienced submissives eager to please someone.

In short, safewords protect the reputation of the dom/me, not the physical safety of the submissive.

By the time the safe word is uttered, the damage is done, the dom/me says "not my fault, she didn't use her safeword in time", and the submissive is off to the hospital with a broken neck while the dom/me is looking for a new playmate.

quote:


However we are not in the position to interview each and every person that has subbed to you to find out if they feel the same way. 


Just as you are not in a position to interview an individual's rape victims, or stalking victims, or abuse victims.

The point is casual one-night stands are hazardous because insufficient time is taken to know the individual who will excuse their misbehaviour by saying you didn't use your safeword so it was okay for him to mangle you till you did.

How does the inexperienced submissive benefit from this?

quote:


Now I'm generally speaking of new relationships or playing with someone you don't know well or are just getting to know. Safewords-yes!


And I am saying what kind of responsible dom puts someone in those situations at risk such that a safe word must be uttered?


Regarding Celeste's endometriosis:
Medical conditions might benefit from use of a safeword, but are hardly typical of the situations where safewords are recommended.

Safewords in most situations simply allows the irresponsible dom/me to transfer blame for disasters onto the back of the damaged submissive by saying "she didn't use her safeword in time".

In other words, the safe word concept says it is up to the submissive to stop the dom/me from injuring the submissive, and the dom/me is free to do whatever he/she will until the safe word is used.

Why? Because the poor dom/me is fallible and shouldn't be blamed if he/she breaks a leg or neck before a submissive utters a safe word. Safety is the submissive's responsibility, not the dom/me's.

And that is why the safeword concept is flawed.


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: RED Flags - 9/14/2007 7:07:21 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		I'm prolly gonna get a huge big attack for this but BobKgin...aren't you a little off the deep end in every response you put out there? Why is every thing an end of the world senario?

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: RED Flags - 9/14/2007 7:10:43 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline
quote:

But consider in the example above, your mouth full and vomit rising, when did you have the opportunity to utter a safeword?


Ironically enough I've never used safewords in any of my relationships

But we were doing it like you had mentioned and it was literally like a centimeter of difference that made me gag.

Anyway yeah...a safeword really *shouldn't* be used in case of injury because it means someone did something wrong...unless it's something like a charley horse which nobody can control.  I'm sorry if I misunderstood that you were saying people had to be perfect, and you're right that a responsible person doing serious ropework would check and doublecheck.

I have done 'casual' BDSM play twice and used the safeword once.  It was something that would have seemed SO trivial but was causing me serious pain - a dildo.  It wasn't even big or anything...just hard and yucky.  He actually stopped before I used the safeword, because my first response was to say "stop" rather than "red" and he realized I was in pain...but he still asked "do you mean stop or red?" to make sure.  And that was someone who I had hung out with like twice before we played...not anyone I knew intimately...so obviously he was making sure to read my signals and body language.  But it was nice to have the safeword to clarify because I love ravishment type play and I want to be able to say "stop" without it stopping

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: RED Flags - 9/14/2007 7:12:17 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		PS he was an excellent Top/Dom and I give him three thumbs up   There are soooo many threads about 'red flags' and 'bad Dom/mes" and stuff and there really should be one about all the awesome ones!

(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: RED Flags - 9/14/2007 9:00:42 PM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		Well Bob, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The way I see it if a Dom tells a prospective new sub that he doesn't use safewords because he is experienced and doesn't need them, she (or he) should probably reconsider putting herself in his hands. Using safe words may not insure her safety if a Dom ignores them, BUT if he does completely ignore a safeword, it's pretty clear who F'd up. If she's ever asked "what do you think about this guy? Is he safe to play with?" she doesn't have to go through some long drawn out story that could have a lot of different interpretations. She says "I called Red and he didn't stop".

I've heard the argument that using safewords doesn't allow a Dom to learn to read his sub and I think that's baloney. A responsible Dom/me will always work to do their best to avoid safewords being called. They will still learn. But a safeword is like a safety net under a tightrope walker. The difference is, you aren't just risking your health on that rope, you are risking someone elses. Once he's learned his sub and they are an experienced pair they can decide together if they want to dispense with safewords, but that's the only time I would play without them.

(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: RED Flags - 9/14/2007 11:58:06 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Tops aren't mind readers. I've had cramps in body parts that weren't tied, I'm prone to my feet cramping up out of the blue. I've gotten a hair in my mouth and needed everything stopped until he removed it. Hell I've needed a tissue passed to me because I could feel a sneeze coming. I've had body parts start tingling, no damage with that, and needed a tie changed to prevent damage.

I bear as much responsibility for my well being as he does. And letting things progress until damage occurred would show my lack of responsibility, since he can't feel what I feel.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: RED Flags - 9/15/2007 4:19:05 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

I'm prolly gonna get a huge big attack for this but BobKgin...aren't you a little off the deep end in every response you put out there? Why is every thing an end of the world senario?


Probably because I don't see a reason to candy-coat the risks.

BDSM is not safe, and no safeword is going to change that.

The safeword creates the erroneous impression that safety is somehow the responsibility of the submissive, not the dom/me.

It provides a 'get out of jail free' card for the irresponsible dom/me ("she didn't use her safeword, how was I to know").

It does nothing to protect the submissive from being damaged by the irresponsible dom/me. If it is used before an injury occurs, the submissive is pressured to wait longer.

This leaves the irresponsible dom/me free to do whatever he/she wishes without accepting any responsibility for the consequences because it is the submissive's responsibility to utter a safeword when things become unsafe for the submissive.

The submissive, blindfolded, bound helpless, her brain flooded with endorphin, is somehow responsible for the consequences of what the irresponsible dom/me has set in motion if the submissive does not utter the safeword in time.

Sounds like a perfect system for sending inexperienced submissives to a hospital while absolving irresponsible dom/mes of blame such that they remain irresponsible and free to victimize new partners.

This is just one of the risks associated with the impatience that fuels casual play.


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to BoiJen)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: RED Flags - 9/15/2007 4:23:28 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

PS he was an excellent Top/Dom and I give him three thumbs up   There are soooo many threads about 'red flags' and 'bad Dom/mes" and stuff and there really should be one about all the awesome ones!


I'm afraid that thread would be limited to dom/mes whose partners are here to testify.

What about the awesome ones who don't have partners here?

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: RED Flags - 9/15/2007 4:49:48 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

Well Bob, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The way I see it if a Dom tells a prospective new sub that he doesn't use safewords because he is experienced and doesn't need them, she (or he) should probably reconsider putting herself in his hands. Using safe words may not insure her safety if a Dom ignores them, BUT if he does completely ignore a safeword, it's pretty clear who F'd up. If she's ever asked "what do you think about this guy? Is he safe to play with?" she doesn't have to go through some long drawn out story that could have a lot of different interpretations. She says "I called Red and he didn't stop".

I've heard the argument that using safewords doesn't allow a Dom to learn to read his sub and I think that's baloney. A responsible Dom/me will always work to do their best to avoid safewords being called. They will still learn. But a safeword is like a safety net under a tightrope walker. The difference is, you aren't just risking your health on that rope, you are risking someone elses. Once he's learned his sub and they are an experienced pair they can decide together if they want to dispense with safewords, but that's the only time I would play without them.


I draw your attention to Wickad's post (Pg 1, #17):

"I do agree that if a safe word had been set that the Dominant or Top involved should abide by said word and all its connotations.  That being said, safe words are rarely called because things are going swell and the submissive involved has a premonition that things will suddenly go sour so decides to call the safe word to ensure that said 'bad thing' doesn't happen.  Most of the time a safe word is called because something has already gone horribly wrong and the person in question needs to be taken out of the scene (and oftentimes out of the building - ie: hospital)."

Or my own (Pg. 3, #57)

"But it's a little late for a safeword if you've broken her neck."

Safewords are unnecessary when dealing with a responsible dom/me, and are of no use with an irresponsible dom/me unless used before an injury occurs.

However, safewords do serve a purpose in protecting irresponsible dom/mes from the consequences of their irresponsible behaviour: they can blame the submissive for not using the safe word in time.

As I said in the above-mentioned post:

"But there will always be people who prefer it casual, and people who will believe a safeword is a magic shield that protects them from harm, so anyone can dom/me them."

Personally, I think the greatest risk in BDSM is impatience. And there will always be some whose impatience pushes them to play with people they hardly know in casual situations.

There will always be submissives who are told they are completely safe because they just need to utter their safeword. What they are not told is that an irresponsible dom/me will use the safeword as the -only- security measure, and will not worry about what he/she does to the submissive, leaving it to the submissive to end the play through the use of the safeword.

In your example above:

"If she's ever asked "what do you think about this guy? Is he safe to play with?" she doesn't have to go through some long drawn out story that could have a lot of different interpretations. She says "I called Red and he didn't stop". "

Would he be considered "safe" if she says "he broke my hip in two places, but he stopped when I called Red"?

I am emphasizing the responsibility of the dom/me to maintain safety throughout.

You are emphasizing the dom/me's willingness to obey when told to stop.

By the time the instruction to stop is given, the injuries have already occurred. So what is so "safe" about the "safeword"?

Why not call it the "injury-word": a word spoken after an injury has occurred?

Probably because "injury-word" does not lull inexperienced submissives into a false sense of security the way "safeword" does.

< Message edited by Bobkgin -- 9/15/2007 4:51:27 AM >

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: RED Flags - 9/15/2007 5:56:24 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

He actually stopped before I used the safeword, because my first response was to say "stop" rather than "red" and he realized I was in pain...but he still asked "do you mean stop or red?" to make sure.  And that was someone who I had hung out with like twice before we played...not anyone I knew intimately...so obviously he was making sure to read my signals and body language.  But it was nice to have the safeword to clarify because I love ravishment type play and I want to be able to say "stop" without it stopping



With me, "stop" always means stop.

In Canada, and I suspect most jurisdictions, ignoring "stop" is rape.

I have found that stopping everything when a sub/slave says "stop" soon teaches her to say it only if she means it, and to not say it when what she really wants is for the activitity to continue.

This avoids any confusion such as you've described above.


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: RED Flags - 9/15/2007 6:01:13 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

PS he was an excellent Top/Dom and I give him three thumbs up   There are soooo many threads about 'red flags' and 'bad Dom/mes" and stuff and there really should be one about all the awesome ones!


I'm afraid that thread would be limited to dom/mes whose partners are here to testify.

What about the awesome ones who don't have partners here?


Same as the sucky ones who don't have exes here to bitch about them...they are spared the eternal recognition of the internets.

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: RED Flags - 9/15/2007 6:03:54 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

I've gotten a hair in my mouth and needed everything stopped until he removed it. Hell I've needed a tissue passed to me because I could feel a sneeze coming.



My understanding of the safeword concept is that it is not to be used for frivolous purposes.

Seems to me the above examples would teach a dom/me to treat the safeword with less respect.

However, it does hint at the other problem with the safeword: when it is used as a tool to top from the bottom rather than as a sign an injury has been sustained.


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to Celeste43)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: RED Flags - 9/15/2007 6:10:40 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

PS he was an excellent Top/Dom and I give him three thumbs up   There are soooo many threads about 'red flags' and 'bad Dom/mes" and stuff and there really should be one about all the awesome ones!


I'm afraid that thread would be limited to dom/mes whose partners are here to testify.

What about the awesome ones who don't have partners here?


Same as the sucky ones who don't have exes here to bitch about them...they are spared the eternal recognition of the internets.



Aside from the fact that such a thread would discriminate against singles in general, and those who do not engage in casual play, it would also lump the awesome singles in with the "sucky ones".

Yes, I can see why a thread like that would fit right in here.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: RED Flags - 9/15/2007 6:10:49 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		Frivolous purposes?  WTF. Safeword means stop. Stop means "I am a person who despite enjoying you having control over my body, still retains the ultimate control, and I also want to enjoy this every bit as much as you do."

As far as this:

quote:

Safewords are unnecessary when dealing with a responsible dom/me, and are of no use with an irresponsible dom/me unless used before an injury occurs.


Just because a safeword is never used in fifty years doesn't mean it's unnecessary.  Like I've said before I may have never used them in my relationships but I know that if I had said "safeword" the person would have stopped.

And besides...you say "stop always means stop" well then...'stop' IS your safeword.  A safeword is something to stop play.  Usually it's a 'code' word because people like me tend to like being able to say no, and stop, without the other person actually stopping.  But the fact that the word always makes you stop means it's your safeword even if you don't want to call it that.

quote:


However, safewords do serve a purpose in protecting irresponsible dom/mes from the consequences of their irresponsible behaviour: they can blame the submissive for not using the safe word in time.


Yes and we should completely eliminate a valid concept that has worked for tens of thousands of people simply because there are irresponsible idiots who can't get the hang of using it properly.  What's next, banning cars because some people can't figure out they shouldn't drink while driving?

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: RED Flags - 9/15/2007 6:33:37 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Frivolous purposes?  WTF. Safeword means stop. Stop means "I am a person who despite enjoying you having control over my body, still retains the ultimate control, and I also want to enjoy this every bit as much as you do."



And for some that means topping from the bottom. Which is fine if the dom/me wants the submissive to direct the activities.

But whenever I've heard the safeword concept explained, it was not intended for frivolous usage such as "scratch my nose, remove this hair, etc". It has always been explained as a safety feature, to be used by the submissive whenever she feels unsafe.

YMMV

quote:


As far as this:

quote:

Safewords are unnecessary when dealing with a responsible dom/me, and are of no use with an irresponsible dom/me unless used before an injury occurs.


Just because a safeword is never used in fifty years doesn't mean it's unnecessary.  Like I've said before I may have never used them in my relationships but I know that if I had said "safeword" the person would have stopped.


Which can be obtained by simply saying "stop", no codeword required.

quote:


And besides...you say "stop always means stop" well then...'stop' IS your safeword. 


No. "Stop means stop" is the law, and distinguishes consensual activities from rape.

A safeword is code for being in distress (or, apparently, "I have a hair in my mouth").

quote:


A safeword is something to stop play.  Usually it's a 'code' word because people like me tend to like being able to say no, and stop, without the other person actually stopping.


And anyone who continues after hearing "stop" leaves themselves wide-open to charges of rape. While you might not prosecute, you do not speak for everyone.

What happens to the individual who has forgotten their codeword and says "stop" instead, only to be ignored because that's not the safeword?

Just another complication the safeword concept creates without providing a solution.

quote:


But the fact that the word always makes you stop means it's your safeword even if you don't want to call it that.


See above. "Stop" is a right that must be respected. Safeword is a concept which comes with many problems and few solutions.

quote:


quote:


However, safewords do serve a purpose in protecting irresponsible dom/mes from the consequences of their irresponsible behaviour: they can blame the submissive for not using the safe word in time.


Yes and we should completely eliminate a valid concept that has worked for tens of thousands of people simply because there are irresponsible idiots who can't get the hang of using it properly.  What's next, banning cars because some people can't figure out they shouldn't drink while driving?



Would you legalize drinking and driving because people are going to do it anyway?

Would you not point out the dangers of drinking and driving, because people want to do it and will ignore your warnings?

Would you tell everyone to drink and drive because some people believe it is safe?

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: RED Flags - 9/15/2007 6:42:23 AM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

There will always be submissives who are told they are completely safe because they just need to utter their safeword. What they are not told is that an irresponsible dom/me will use the safeword as the -only- security measure, and will not worry about what he/she does to the submissive, leaving it to the submissive to end the play through the use of the safeword.


I agree that a safeword isn't something that will magically protect a sub in all circumstances. It's not like a hotline to 911. There are Doms out there who will ignore a safeword so all other safety procedures need to be followed carefully. It doesn't mean the sub gets to be careless with her own safety and I don't think most subs think that. 

For the Dom type you describe above, how is taking away safewords going to make him a better Dom or make his sub any safer? If he doesn't think he needs to learn to read his sub and check with her along the way then he's an idiot. But how will not using safe words change this guy from an idiot to a non-idiot? Further, at least the above sub gets to call RED at some point. He may blame her for not calling sooner, but what of the Dom who says he doesn't need safewords at all? Doesn't he get to blame her for "not being clear" "giving him mixed signals" "not communicating well", "not speaking up", "not saying no"???

A safeword cannot be misinterpreted in the throes of excitement as other words/gestures/sounds etc... can be. Red means stop. NO kidding, NO I'm not being willful, NO I'm not being a pussy, NO I'm not topping from the bottom, NO I don't mean after one more swat/slap/punch/bite/pinch etc..., NO I don't mean stop when you feel like stopping because you are the Dom and you get to make the rules, it means RIGHT NOW.






(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: RED Flags - 9/15/2007 7:11:09 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline
quote:

And for some that means topping from the bottom.


If it's topping from the bottom to say you want to enjoy yourself consider me a top then.

quote:

No. "Stop means stop" is the law, and distinguishes consensual activities from rape.

And anyone who continues after hearing "stop" leaves themselves wide-open to charges of rape. While you might not prosecute, you do not speak for everyone.


Unfortunately that is true.  However I would never play with anyone who I don't know.  It's good to keep in mind though especially if you're with a stranger and you don't know if they will freak out and call the cops.

quote:

See above. "Stop" is a right that must be respected. Safeword is a concept which comes with many problems and few solutions.


Meh.  Like I said I enjoy takedowns, force play, rape play, and stuff like that.  I love fighting back and saying no.  I would be damn miserable if I couldn't engage in that kind of play and I could never date a man who wasn't into it.  It's on my list right up there with Godiva ice cream and making out....love it love it love it.

quote:

Would you legalize drinking and driving because people are going to do it anyway?

Would you not point out the dangers of drinking and driving, because people want to do it and will ignore your warnings?

Would you tell everyone to drink and drive because some people believe it is safe?


Um...you seem to have missed my analogy.  "Driving" is an analogy to using a safeword and "drinking and driving" is an analogy to the irresponsible people you mentioned who ignore responsibility and think the safeword would fix it.  Of course I wouldn't tell everyone to ignore responsibility.  However I wouldn't criticize the act of driving itself simply because some people are irresponsible with it.  Nor would I criticize the act of using a safeword for the same reason.

(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: RED Flags - 9/15/2007 8:01:12 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

There will always be submissives who are told they are completely safe because they just need to utter their safeword. What they are not told is that an irresponsible dom/me will use the safeword as the -only- security measure, and will not worry about what he/she does to the submissive, leaving it to the submissive to end the play through the use of the safeword.


I agree that a safeword isn't something that will magically protect a sub in all circumstances. It's not like a hotline to 911. There are Doms out there who will ignore a safeword so all other safety procedures need to be followed carefully. It doesn't mean the sub gets to be careless with her own safety and I don't think most subs think that. 

For the Dom type you describe above, how is taking away safewords going to make him a better Dom or make his sub any safer? If he doesn't think he needs to learn to read his sub and check with her along the way then he's an idiot. But how will not using safe words change this guy from an idiot to a non-idiot?


It doesn't.

What it does is take away the false sense of security a submissive has in believing her safeword is a magic shield that protects her from harm.

Thus, in her own self-interest, she spends more time getting to know the guy and finding out if he can be trusted with her well-being.

Granted, that just about ends the casual, one-night stand experience. But it also reduces the number of kink-related injuries because more of the idiots are being weeded out through the selection process.


It also takes away the excuse idiots use to cover up their misbehaviour: "she didn't use her safeword".

When idiots are held accountable for the injuries they cause regardless of whether a safeword exists or not, then you have a chance of weeding out the idiots.

But as long as the safety of the submissive depends upon her using a safeword, there are going to be injuries occurring and idiots not held accountable for what they did that caused the injury.

Dom/mes will take much more time learning about the limitations of their partner, rather than whizzing past that and relying on the safeword to tell them when to quit.

It is about putting the responsibility where it belongs: in the partner who decides what to do and how to do it, not the partner on the receiving end.


quote:


Further, at least the above sub gets to call RED at some point. He may blame her for not calling sooner, but what of the Dom who says he doesn't need safewords at all? Doesn't he get to blame her for "not being clear" "giving him mixed signals" "not communicating well", "not speaking up", "not saying no"???


I've pointed out before that it is every person's right to say "stop" and have that instruction respected and obeyed. Going beyond "stop" is rape.

That is the law, in Canada anyway.

No one can take that right away from her.

But do not confuse the right with the safeword concept. The safeword concept is much more intricate than simply having the right to say "stop".

The safeword concept says "stop" doesn't always mean stop, and you can ignore "stop". The safeword concept places responsibility for the submissive's safety in the hands of the submissive, even if the submissive is bound helpless, blindfolded, gagged, and high on endorphin and perhaps other intoxicants or prescribed pain-killers.

The safeword concept holds that no dom/me is perfect and thus should not be held accountable for any damage caused unless they ignore a safeword.

So if the above-mentioned submissive is too whacked out to give a safeword, the correct safeword and not just "stop", the dom/me is at liberty to continue doing whatever he/she wishes, regardless of injury caused.

And by the safeword concept, that's a legitimate situation with no blame falling upon the dom/me for the injuries sustained.

quote:


A safeword cannot be misinterpreted in the throes of excitement as other words/gestures/sounds etc... can be. Red means stop. NO kidding, NO I'm not being willful, NO I'm not being a pussy, NO I'm not topping from the bottom, NO I don't mean after one more swat/slap/punch/bite/pinch etc..., NO I don't mean stop when you feel like stopping because you are the Dom and you get to make the rules, it means RIGHT NOW.


And yet there are many inexperienced submissives who are led to believe they were premature in using their safeword and should go on.

And how easy is it to accomplish that with them when they've safeworded out before any injury occurs?

The safeword concept causes more problems than it resolves, it does not protect the individual from injury but is promoted as if it will, it is subject to abuse, it provides a shield for idiots who pretend to be dom/mes, and is unneccessary as use of the word "stop" is a right everyone has and understands.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: RED Flags - 9/15/2007 8:12:30 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		Saying someone isn't perfect is far different from saying they aren't responsible for their actions.

Having sex with someone too intoxicated to consent is rape by IL state law even if they never say no.  Anyone who engages in play with someone too drunk to form words is irresponsible. That has nothing to do with safewords.

You seem to have this negative and extreme view that having a safeword (or 'failsafe' option) will automatically cause a responsible person to become irresponsible.  That's simply not true.  A responsible person will be responsible even if a safe word is used - like I said in my example above of the guy who paused and asked if I meant stop or red...he didn't take the fact that we agreed on a safeword as an excuse to run amok and do whatever he wanted until he heard that word.  He maintained control.  An irresponsible person will be irresponsible whether a safe word is used or not.

You have every right not to use safewords and other people have every right to use them.  But using a safe word does NOT mean that someone is irresponsible.  It just means they want to be able to use 'stop' without stopping.  It's kind of hard to do rape play if you can't say "no," "don't," or "stop."

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: RED Flags - 9/15/2007 8:28:20 AM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		A competent and caring top is the best safeword of all.

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 80
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