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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 11:00:22 PM

susie

Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: submittous

I understand your point and with your presumption that prop is mentally incompetent you have every right to think her situation problematic.

I would point our that as I understand her posts she has been commited to mental hospital but she also has been declared competent when she was released.... my understanding is she did not escape. So her current status is legally competent. Her writings do not strike me as coming from someone mentally incompetent.

I will stand by my experience that almost every time we have been involved in finding out the details and realities about supposed abuse and submissives being victimized it has turned out that the people objecting didn't understand the dynamics of the relationships and their zeal to protect was either inappropriate or had ulterior motives. But I admit that is almost always.... not always.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but also responsible for the ramifications of voicing them... my conern in this case and thread is the demonization of a pretty common and actually not very extreme concept in M/s relationships on a forum like this one where new folks will take that demonizing as fact and not consider what might be the right kind of relationship for themselves at some time in the future. They might even be potential slaves for us.

I think I won the award for the longest sentence on that one

Bill and Iris

I think erin has addressed the issue regarding her status. I do not, from my understanding, believe that she has been legally declared competent. If she had been the law would not have found it necessary to appoint a legal guardian for life.

I also do not think that a Master that goes as far as breaking his subs bones is pretty common and not very extreme. If someone new to these boards came and made a post saying "My Master was angry last night because something upset him so he beat me and broke some of my ribs" many of the people posting here would tell her to get out of the relationship. I have seen them do it.

(in reply to submittous)

Post #: 401

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 2:05:48 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

and mist of erin....the whole thing....why? i don't get it...why do people like giving themselves a headache?

Perhaps she thinks it'd be cool to taunt prop into answering so she can mess up her life just to get to prop's Daddy. For some people, it's very important to limit the range of consensual relations available to others so that it conforms with whatever the prevailing prejudice of the time allows (e.g. regular BDSM) or whatever the law allows (e.g. no gay marriage now in the US, no gay relationships earlier), etc...

quote:

prop...if you want to keep your Daddy out of jail...get yourself out from under his gaurdianship...from an outside view, it would appear he doesn't think he will get caught...

Not prop's job, but his, and the likelyhood of him getting caught is approximately zero unless some moron decides to make a point of showing people that Rover's comments on never trusting anyone online takes on an entirely new dimension on CollarMe, just so they can sleep better, have their hobby squeaky-clean, or whatever. I mean, that whole "with friends like these..." bit, and all that...

For that matter, I don't think that's something one just "gets out of" by signing a form or something.

quote:

Aswad....what were you saying about pop-psychology?

Tons. What were you getting at, so as to save me some time?

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 402

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 2:07:17 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

I think there are those who have not lived it, cannot imagine it, and whose responses look a lot like Vanilla: it is either all fantasy, all insane, or all deceit.

Bingo.

Let me add one: "or non-consensual".

Just to complete the triad that spawned the pseudo-religion of SSC.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 403

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 2:23:22 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Personally, I would not care who the involved parties are. [...] It is not a situation that I wish to see promoted as an acceptable example of what this lifestyle should be allowed to encompass.

I wouldn't wish to see this attitude promoted as acceptable; we all make compromises.

Anyway, are you saying that this is a matter of keeping up appearances?

Would it be better for her to be in a non-consensual power dynamic she would be unhappy in (hospitalization) than a technically illegal but consensual power dynamic which she is happy in (her current relationship)? Or would it just be better for your peace of mind and the reputation of the community (like back when LGBT people "stayed in the closet")? It is repeatedly driven home how vanilla BDSM is around here.

For that matter, the law does not allow one to consent to these activities under any circumstance, so the technicality of legal guardianship is entirely beside the point as far as the law is concerned, except as an aggravating circumstance. Sometimes, the law is plain wrong; to abuse the law to maintain prejudices is despicable, IMO.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 404

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 2:34:09 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

[...]those things would in turn invalidate any prior consent to present or future circumstances until such time that the condition was alleviated to such a degree that I once again became deemed competent.[...]

That would not be the case for a DNR order.

Would you say this is more serious than letting someone die?

Technically speaking, prior consent is not legal under any circumstance.

Say "stop" under a heavy scene, but not your safeword, and it becomes illegal.

quote:

No I am not saying that he should have left her....but at the point at which she could no longer be held accountable and responsible for making her own choices, her consent to be abused by him could no longer be considered valid.

So he should stay in a relationship with her, but not stay in a relationship with her?

How do you propose to resolve it?

quote:

Do you think that we should send a message that we think that it's ok for competent people to abuse incompetent people under the guise of dominance?

Depends on the reason for judging them incompetent.

But do you think such things should be forced underground, where there might be a trend for actual slave trade to start leeching off relationships that are merely on the edge, rather than out in the open? Or would you isolate people like prop completely?

quote:

Would it be okay to do so to invalids?

Sure. And there's been threads on it in the past.

quote:

The mentally retarded?

Difficult question. Start a thread on it.

quote:

As you yourself said, how far down the ladder of insanity do we go before it's "not ok"?

Again, start a thread on it. So far, the consensus has been "each must decide for themself".

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 405

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 2:40:48 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Googling "Stockholm Syndrome" and "Battered person syndrome" might provide some insightful information...

Leaving google behind and actually studying it might prove more edifying...

Capture-bonding technically happens on in many, probably most, TPE relationships.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 406

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 2:42:23 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Not exactly how I'd like to go, but I couldn't pass it up without saying:
Dang! You've got nerves of steel to be posting that!
That's what I'd call "No Limits" in an absolute sense of the term.

Makes the thread worth reading in the first place, that speck of gold.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 407

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 2:47:16 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Jesus Christ.

Is not here.

quote:

I'm not going to make any judgement over whether daddysprop is mentally sane or not, although the fact that she says she is no less sane than anyone else yet is unable to see how abusive her situation is might speak to her level of judgement skills.

That's a bit of a judgment in itself.

So far, she seems pretty damn accurate in describing it.

The rest of this has been taken to the other side, where it'll push fewer buttons.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 408

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 3:00:02 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

If you genuinely prefer the "abusive" treatment, then I guess that's your own decision, provided you are in fact mentally competent to make it.

Does, for instance, being a masochist qualify as being incompetent, like the law says?

(Yes, it has been reintroduced in the DSM-IV-TR.)

quote:

[...]I would say the acts are abusive and a parallel can be drawn to a woman being abused who stays in the relationship because she sees it as better than leaving.

Where do you get the idea that "better" is anywhere but in the eye of the beholder?

quote:

And of course, if someone really will kill you for leaving, that is abusive.

Just like caning someone for disobeying an order to do the dishes obviously is.

quote:

I can't imagine an argument made that says anyone has the right to kill someone for breaking up with them.

It doesn't have anything to do with breaking up.

And if someone permits that for any reason, what would make that one special in the first place?

quote:

Knowing this forum however, I'm sure someone will try.

I'll take that as a compliment.

For some of us, this is more about personal liberty than about kinky sex.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 409

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 3:03:08 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

Ya know, a person can be so fucked up they do consent to abuse... does not change anything.. it is still abuse...and i do not give a rats ass what color you color it.... or how loudly a person screams 'but it's consentual'.....it does not make the Master any less insane or the 'slave' any less fucked up.

That pretty much exactly mirrors, almost word for word, how I heard a vanilla describe a pretty tame D/s relationship a few days ago. Which should be a wake-up call to some one would imagine. Experience, of course, shows otherwise...

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 410

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 3:08:30 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

[... unless] you're willing to invade their space to report them, there simply isn't anything in your power to do.

And, quite importantly, if you do so, that will be yet another non-consensual abuse.

quote:

Those who consciously, actively choose to live an unhappy and painful life have every bit of a right to their pursuit to death, bondage, and the pursuit of misery.

I wish my tagline had room for this line; Inalienable Human Rights 101.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 411

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 3:18:12 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

But they ARE breaking laws.

As are most of us.

And that criminal who tried to assassinate Hitler.

And, not too long ago, virtually every single gay person in the US did, too.

quote:

I'm not going to call the cops on them because if she has the internet she has a phone too.

That's the only reason you're not raping her ... err, sorry, "saving" her?

quote:

But I'm certainly not going to say "your 'kink' [...] is OK" because for fuck's sake, it's not.

Edited for clarity.

quote:

A Master has the right to punish his slave. He has the right to hurt her even. Yes that is illegal and yes that is abusive. Even if it's consentual abuse.

Edited for consistency.

quote:

But he does not have the right to injure, maim, disfigure, disable, or kill her.

So people into impact play, extreme dilation, BME, etc. are denied their freedom of choice?

quote:

I'm not saying they don't have the *right* to be abused, I'm just saying they are being abused.

It's kind of a value added statement.

quote:

And only a real piece of shit would injure and harm the person he is legally obligated through guardianship to protect.

Whereas if he wasn't legally obligated through guardianship, it'd be okay?

Please clarify this position.

quote:

Doesn't make it any less true.

No, its falsity and absolutism takes care of that.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 412

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 3:24:15 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I am however criticizing *him* for his actions. And I would say forcing someone to have sex with anyone against their will is abusive (virtually rape by proxy even) whether that person is a man or a woman.

Dang. There goes something more than one play-partner has been going on about for years.

quote:

what sort of sick fuck will abuse the trust placed in him by someone weaker who he is legally bound to protect?

You might be confusing submission and slavery, in the stricter sense of the words.
In the latter case, there is no such thing as abusing trust.
And what's up with calling prop weak?

Think you'd be content (and most of the time even happy) after years of all that?
Credit where credit is due: prop is not weak.

quote:

just because you give someone the 'right' to beat you to near death doesn't mean they have to actually *do* it.

Sticking to the theoretical, under what circumstances would they have to actually do it?

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 413

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 3:28:24 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I'm simply saying that it is abhorrent to treat another human being as disposable

Human beings are disposable; that's why we procreate, and a tenet of the western world.

It just happens to be the state's decision (or fate/chance) when to dispose of them.

Goodness forbid someone who knows the person be allowed to decide.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 414

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 3:37:22 AM

rollinonward05

Posts: 78
Joined: 9/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

I would point our that as I understand her posts she has been commited to mental hospital but she also has been declared competent when she was released.

Just a quick question that might sound silly but...

If she is now competent why does she need a legal guardian?
This may of been brought up already I may of missed it in the many pages this subject has taken on.
rollin

(in reply to submittous)

Post #: 415

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 3:58:22 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

But the theme is there: being free from the Moral Majority (BDSM Chapter) is a key right many of us insist upon.

All of us, in fact.

Thing is, some of us insist of being free of the Moral Minority as well.

quote:

I keep hearing the same Vanilla arguments from the other side: "oh a woman cannot consent to being tied up and whipped unless she is legally incompetent", etc.

And on this side, she can't even consent to being spanked if legally incompetent.

On the other hand, people think it's quite fine to incarcerate someone who was incompetent when they did a crime, under the argument that it was a choice on their part. Many have voiced the opinion that prop's daddy should be incarcerated for what she sees as saving her, thus putting her back in an institution, where (depending on local legislation) people who don't know her can e.g. run 0.9 Amps through her brain without consent.

From my angle, that's not "saving" ... that's rape, plain and simple.

A bit of perspective would be nice, at times.

quote:

Does my heart good to see so many defending their right to consent.

Well, my latest checkup indicates the experimental treatment has worked: it's doing so well right now, that it's virtually impossible to do it any further good at this point. (Pardon my lame attempt at ante coffeam humor.) Very much agree with the sentiment, though. Most are just in it for the kink, and the rest follows from that. Some are into having a choice, and the kink follows from that, instead. That and a compatible worldview is why I headed toward the other side of the lifestyles: sovereignty and autonomy are key.

Without these things, BDSM is just vanilla with a kink or two (or 666).

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 416

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 4:03:46 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

i do think she comes on these types of threads for the shock value ... it gives her an open window.

Or possibly for the same reason I do: to defend the right to choose, and to note that "yes, there is such a thing; now, you would gain a lot more from spending this time learning to use the search function, rather than restarting old, settled arguments".

Shaking up the authoritarians/collectivists is just a plus, albeit a deeply satisfying one.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 417

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 4:09:22 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Because as we all know consent is purely a black and white simple thing and things like codependence, emotional blackmail, stockholm syndrome, battered persons syndrome, manipulation, fear of being abandoned NEVER ever cloud the issue into the realm of the gray....

In fact, there is no such thing as black or white. It's all grey, once you permit BDSM in the first place. That said, conflating pop psych, Dear Laura, two different names for capture-bonding mechanisms in evolutionary psychology, one entirely undefined term (except the strict definition: communication and/or interaction), and a fear that is shared by most people in relationships of one sort or another ... that isn't grey, but foggy.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 418

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 4:16:48 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

However, eloquence and intelligence have nothing whatsoever to do with psychiatric competency.

Quite true. That comes down to theology...

No, but seriously, standards do vary with regard to assessing incompetence.

If prop came to the hospital with some broken ribs, ended up with them figuring out it was due to BDSM and that she consented to it, that would be enough to throw quite a few psychiatrists for a loop. And a psychoanalyst would take it as grounds for being sectioned. You're probably aware that there are several conditions where that will make things a hell of a lot worse for the patient. So her Daddy got her out of there. Good job.

That would paint a rather different picture, as an example.

But we don't have those details.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 419

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:10:51 AM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty
Aswad....what were you saying about pop-psychology?

Tons. What were you getting at, so as to save me some time?

ORIGINAL: Aswad

you gave me shit for pop-psychologizing someone else the other day, possibly on this thread even...i was just handing it back....thats all...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Jesus Christ.

Is not here.

but if he were on earth, and using the internet, i think he might spend some free time on this site, and probably on these boards...he did go willingly to the cross and i am sure there are a few sinners around here...

chelle

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 420

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