quote:


As I don't believe in punishment, I don't really see a difference between an "infraction" and an "excuse for sadism".

They both seem to be a way of loading any guilt the d/m is feeling about being sadistic on the back of the submissive.

It's like saying "you've made me angry" when the truth is I choose whether I will respond with anger or something else to whatever is done to me or around me.

Do you see where I am going with this? It's akin to abusive husbands who blame the beatings on their wives' behaviour.

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It's not abusive if the one being punished consents to it as part of the dynamic of their relationship.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Go read some Behavorial Science, figure out the difference between corrective and punitive punishment, and then you will have your answer.

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Edited to Add : I find this kind of ironic Bobgkin since you spent about 20 pages in a recent thread defending a relationship where the Master does physically punish his slave out of anger in addition to the all the others things he does to make her suffer as being non abusive and consentual and great.

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HollyBlue's Journal

Loving Discipline:

I didn’t trust my ex-husband to make the best decisions for either one of us, and he often ignored or took for granted the things I did for him. We wanted different things out of a relationship, and although he is a good person, he was not the right person for me.

In contrast, I do trust my Master to make wise decisions for both of us. When I took my wedding vows with my ex, I had the word “obey” removed, because I bristled at it so much. Who wants to obey someone when you don’t trust him enough to hand over the reins? However, when my Master and I marry, I will make sure the word obey is included in my vows, because I trust him implicitly, and because I deeply need to be directed and disciplined.

What kinds of non-sexual commands does my Master give me? First, he absolutely will not tolerate me putting myself down. He says, “Nobody talks about my Holly that way, not even you.” If I put myself down or disobey other commands (which usually involve taking better care of and loving myself), he will physically discipline me. When he does so, I feel like he really gives a shit about me, as opposed to someone who would just make an offhand comment about my self-destructive behavior. He cares enough to intervene, with force if necessary. And a side benefit of the discipline is that it turns us both on.

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HollyBlue (yesterday)

Also, my Master and I have since developed a punishment protocol that goes as follows:

1) Master: Holly, [insert infraction here i.e. 'you are tardy.'] I am going to punish you, with [insert consequence here, e.e. 'two hard smacks to each ass cheek.'] Do you have anything to say?

(This "Do you have anything to say" question is one of the main reason our punishment protocol exists. It stops a punishment from being carried out if the infraction was due to a misunderstanding. So, in the above example, if I was tardy due to circumstances beyond my control, I can explain the circumstances to Master. Or, if I'm about to be punished for being "mouthy," it gives me an opportunity to explain if I was indeed not being disrespectful, but Master misunderstood me.

I do not abuse the privilege of this communication cross-check before punishment occurs; it's just a failsafe. Master knows I'm not the kind of person who would use it to wheedle out of a punishment I deserved.)

2) Holly answers. In this example, let's say she was tardy because she was messing around on the internet. That is not a good excuse. So, her answer would be "No, sir."

3) Master: "Why are you being punished, Holly?"

4) Holly: States reason, in this case she would say, "Because I was tardy, sir."

5) Master: Specifies desired slave position (Holly assumes any one of 10 positions immediately on command), or simply has Holly take down her pants without assuming a special position.

6) Holly assumes position and/or disrobes as necessary.

7) Master administers punishment. Holly is expected to understand that it will hurt...it is not for her pleasure. She is also expected to take it quietly and gracefully, remaining in position.

8) After being punished, Holly thanks Master for punishing her.

Sounds complicated, but in reality, it only takes a couple of minutes, and insures that there has been clear communication as to why the punishment is occurring and whether the punishable transaction did, in fact, occur.

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ORIGINAL: probablyknowme

I think that there is a very good quote that applies here..."There are no victims here, just voluteers." just my two cents.

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ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Why is punishment assumed to be physical?

How abusive is making me stand on leg or write out grammer rules?

Abuse is something that happens without your consent that belittles you, IMHO. Punishment in a d/s dynamic where both parties consent to and on some level enjoy the punishment dynamic being there is not abuse.

Do I enjoy my punishments, rare though they may be? Hell no! But I enjoy that he has that control over me.

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ORIGINAL: HollyBlue

Disagree, vehemently. In regard to the OP's statements:

"1. sub/slave breaks a rule." Yes, this happens from time to time, even in the best of slaves (***gasp!***), no matter how perfect we try to be.
"2. sub/slave needs physical punishment to learn not to break the rule." Yes, for me it does help, as I've described in a blog post I'll link to later. I'll also quote a paragraph on loving discipline from my journal here:

quote:

HollyBlue's Journal

Loving Discipline:

I didn’t trust my ex-husband to make the best decisions for either one of us, and he often ignored or took for granted the things I did for him. We wanted different things out of a relationship, and although he is a good person, he was not the right person for me.

In contrast, I do trust my Master to make wise decisions for both of us. When I took my wedding vows with my ex, I had the word “obey” removed, because I bristled at it so much. Who wants to obey someone when you don’t trust him enough to hand over the reins? However, when my Master and I marry, I will make sure the word obey is included in my vows, because I trust him implicitly, and because I deeply need to be directed and disciplined.

What kinds of non-sexual commands does my Master give me? First, he absolutely will not tolerate me putting myself down. He says, “Nobody talks about my Holly that way, not even you.” If I put myself down or disobey other commands (which usually involve taking better care of and loving myself), he will physically discipline me. When he does so, I feel like he really gives a shit about me, as opposed to someone who would just make an offhand comment about my self-destructive behavior. He cares enough to intervene, with force if necessary. And a side benefit of the discipline is that it turns us both on.

Back to the OP's statements:

"1. sub/slave is not devoted to obeying her d/m" Nothing could be farther from the truth. I am deeply devoted to obeying my Master, but some old habits die hard, and part of the training process is learning not to forget to obey new protocols. I'm fiercely intelligent, but even I don't remember to do everything I'm told on the first go. Or, even when I've done something right 20 times in a row, occasionally I space it, and in my opinion, my Master should not let that slide. When I forget, I want him to punish me!
"2. sub/slave is too stupid to learn by any other means than brute force." I'm not sure if this statement deserves to be dignified with a response. However, if you are truly interested in loving disciplinary dynamics, and the way they work beautifully for some couples, please read my blog entry on corporal punishment (link below).

http://hollybluesflightofideas.blogspot.com/2007/09/on-corporal-punishment.html

Finally, I'm copying and pasting the following punishment protocol from a post I made yesterday, as it removes any danger of punishment becoming abuse in our situation:

quote:

HollyBlue (yesterday)

Also, my Master and I have since developed a punishment protocol that goes as follows:

1) Master: Holly, [insert infraction here i.e. 'you are tardy.'] I am going to punish you, with [insert consequence here, e.e. 'two hard smacks to each ass cheek.'] Do you have anything to say?

(This "Do you have anything to say" question is one of the main reason our punishment protocol exists. It stops a punishment from being carried out if the infraction was due to a misunderstanding. So, in the above example, if I was tardy due to circumstances beyond my control, I can explain the circumstances to Master. Or, if I'm about to be punished for being "mouthy," it gives me an opportunity to explain if I was indeed not being disrespectful, but Master misunderstood me.

I do not abuse the privilege of this communication cross-check before punishment occurs; it's just a failsafe. Master knows I'm not the kind of person who would use it to wheedle out of a punishment I deserved.)

2) Holly answers. In this example, let's say she was tardy because she was messing around on the internet. That is not a good excuse. So, her answer would be "No, sir."

3) Master: "Why are you being punished, Holly?"

4) Holly: States reason, in this case she would say, "Because I was tardy, sir."

5) Master: Specifies desired slave position (Holly assumes any one of 10 positions immediately on command), or simply has Holly take down her pants without assuming a special position.

6) Holly assumes position and/or disrobes as necessary.

7) Master administers punishment. Holly is expected to understand that it will hurt...it is not for her pleasure. She is also expected to take it quietly and gracefully, remaining in position.

8) After being punished, Holly thanks Master for punishing her.

Sounds complicated, but in reality, it only takes a couple of minutes, and insures that there has been clear communication as to why the punishment is occurring and whether the punishable transaction did, in fact, occur.

If someone still doesn't understand the reasons for physical punishments in some relationships after everything I've said here, he or she either does not want to understand, or is too different from me and my Master, emotionally and psychologically, to be capable of understanding.

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ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

If someone misbehaves, and a correction is necessary it has to be something unpleasant.

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Go read some Behavorial Science, figure out the difference between corrective and punitive punishment, and then you will have your answer.

And both obtain results by instilling fear of further punishment in the sub/slave.

Do those who cannot rule through love resort to ruling through terror?

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:


Edited to Add : I find this kind of ironic Bobgkin since you spent about 20 pages in a recent thread defending a relationship where the Master does physically punish his slave out of anger in addition to the all the others things he does to make her suffer as being non abusive and consentual and great.

As usual, the synopsis leaves much to be desired when it comes to accuracy.

Those interested can review my posts in the "Hard Limits: how far will you go?" thread.

What I did was support Prop's right to remain in a relationship she finds rewarding, despite the fact it includes behaviour I would not indulge in.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

As usual, the synopsis leaves much to be desired when it comes to accuracy.

Those interested can review my posts in the "Hard Limits: how far will you go?" thread.

What I did was support Prop's right to remain in a relationship she finds rewarding, despite the fact it includes behaviour I would not indulge in.

Bobgkin, you specifically argued that the relationship in question and the activities in question were not abusive because they were in fact consentual.

Given those arguments, then you should alreadey know why a dynamic with punishment isnt abuse...because its consentual.

Which makes me wonder why you have started a thread, passing judgement over dominants who utilize a style that you dont personally like.

Remember that part of the No Limits thread? Where you spoke out against judging other people?

It would be nice if you would be somewhat consistent on these boards.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

It would be nice if you would be somewhat consistent on these boards.

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

As usual, the synopsis leaves much to be desired when it comes to accuracy.

Those interested can review my posts in the "Hard Limits: how far will you go?" thread.

What I did was support Prop's right to remain in a relationship she finds rewarding, despite the fact it includes behaviour I would not indulge in.

Bobgkin, you specifically argued that the relationship in question and the activities in question were not abusive because they were in fact consentual.

Given those arguments, then you should alreadey know why a dynamic with punishment isnt abuse...because its consentual.

Which makes me wonder why you have started a thread, passing judgement over dominants who utilize a style that you dont personally like.

Remember that part of the No Limits thread? Where you spoke out against judging other people?

It would be nice if you would be somewhat consistent on these boards.

Rabbit, I am not challenging anyone's right to consent to whatever relationship they wish.

I am challenging the rationale behind a particular activity within some relationships. This is not new for me, I did the same with respect to those who believe a sub/slave can be prostituted. I've done the same with those who seem to undermine the self-esteem of a sub/slave.

I fail to see the contradiction between this and any of my previous statements/positions.

Furthermore, by opening this discussion, I am encouraging participation from all sides of this issue. Each member of the audience can judge for him/herself the merits of each point made.

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

It would be nice if you would be somewhat consistent on these boards.

Hey come one now... being Consistently inconsistent is still being consistent!