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ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

ORIGINAL: xolarkinxo

Machismo is by definition an exaggerated sense of masculinity.  I'd take that over a man displaying effeminate behavior any day.

Amen and amen..... As a side note....(my opinion ONLY) Its ashame that our society has created a bunch of eunuches. Its no longer acceptable for the sexes to act like who and what they are...

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ORIGINAL: Aileen68

This thread has the potential for actually being a discussion.  I just hope that bob doesn't turn it into a "my way is a better way" kind of thing instead of accepting that everyone has different preferences and views.

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

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ORIGINAL: Aileen68

You are assuming that men who display their machismo are unintelligent and violent.  I've found this to not be the case.

Ah, but you are a lady and I am a man.

As part of my studies on machismo I used to watch pro wrestling.

Yes it is an act, but a very popular act as one can see if one watches the audience.

Pro wrestling is all about machismo. The stereotyped displays are, to me, "unintelligent and violent".

If that example seems weak, consider the displays of machismo in sports, politics, entertainment.

They all appeal to the less intelligent and those eager for violence, or so it seems to me.

Sad to say, but in my opinion the war in Iraq is all about machismo: Bush II had to prove he's a better man than Bush I.

Your Politics May Vary

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

ORIGINAL: xolarkinxo

Machismo is by definition an exaggerated sense of masculinity.  I'd take that over a man displaying effeminate behavior any day.

Amen and amen..... As a side note....(my opinion ONLY) Its ashame that our society has created a bunch of eunuches. Its no longer acceptable for the sexes to act like who and what they are...

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ORIGINAL: camille65

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

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ORIGINAL: camille65

Bob why do you say that ethics preclude machismo? I don't understand what you mean.

Machismo, as it existed in the world I grew up in, was about men being superior to women. It was about the presumption that it was the male perogative to take what he wanted from women. It was also considered vulgar and rude.

It might help to put it into context to know these discussions were being held in the first half of the 1970s, a time when liberalism and egalitarianism were immensely popular, at least in middle-class suburban Toronto.

 Interesting. We definitely come from different socio-economic backgrounds lol.  I don't know if that makes the difference in how I view the word or not.~1 : a strong sense of masculine pride That is how I take the word. Sometimes the pride is earned and other times I see it as over compensation, or as a cultural trait.Very rarely do I see it as a negative unless it is obviously unearned. Now machismo and BDSM? In that context I see it as a confident male. For me a confident male is a yummy thing indeed.

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ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

As to why? It's just basic primal instinct. Survival of the fittest, natural selection and all that non-sexy stuff etc.... At an instinctual level women are still attracted to the male that will make the strongest, healthiest babies and be able to protect them. We don't really need the same things that we once did to create a child that will succeed in this world, but at one time, that power and strength meant survival so it's wired into our DNA. Just like men are attracted to women with young "fertile" bodies.

A lot of things about D/s pluck those primal strings. That's why I like it. So much of our modern lives take us away from what we really are at our core, animals.

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

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ORIGINAL: camille65

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

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ORIGINAL: camille65

Bob why do you say that ethics preclude machismo? I don't understand what you mean.

Machismo, as it existed in the world I grew up in, was about men being superior to women. It was about the presumption that it was the male perogative to take what he wanted from women. It was also considered vulgar and rude.

It might help to put it into context to know these discussions were being held in the first half of the 1970s, a time when liberalism and egalitarianism were immensely popular, at least in middle-class suburban Toronto.

 Interesting. We definitely come from different socio-economic backgrounds lol.  I don't know if that makes the difference in how I view the word or not.~1 : a strong sense of masculine pride That is how I take the word. Sometimes the pride is earned and other times I see it as over compensation, or as a cultural trait.Very rarely do I see it as a negative unless it is obviously unearned. Now machismo and BDSM? In that context I see it as a confident male. For me a confident male is a yummy thing indeed.

I hope you have a chance to check out the various definitions some have provided to see how "machismo" is understood by others.

One thing I'd like to ask:

How do you define "masculine pride" as opposed to "pride" or "feminine pride"?

I feel pride in accomplishing something that was a challenge to my skills and abilities. But there is no challenge to my being a man: I was born male and becoming a man is unavoidable.

The kind of man I become is another matter. But there is no quality, talent or skill I can accomplish that cannot be equally accomplished by a woman. Thus I see no basis for masculine pride: only a basis for pride in what I accomplish.

Machismo is the emphasis on masculinity. But what can men do that women cannot do?

Men can produce sperm while women cannot.

However, women can produce babies and breast milk where men cannot.

Given a comparison of oozing sperm out of my body versus giving birth to an eight pound baby -and- producing enough food to keep the baby alive for months ...

... I'd have to say pride in something purely masculine is a bit over-rated when compared to the pride that can be felt for something which is purely feminine

Perhaps that is why machismo is so exaggerated.

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Anyone interested in seeing what desirable women looked like to our primitive ancestors is invited to view the picture here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurines

The above is a figurine carved some 25,000 years ago, and it is one of many similar figurines that have been found in Europe.

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ORIGINAL: breatheasone

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Because not all women are the same and your parents didn't know everything.

OUCH.....

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ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

So... what is it when women wrestle or spar?

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

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ORIGINAL: Aileen68

You are assuming that men who display their machismo are unintelligent and violent.  I've found this to not be the case.

Ah, but you are a lady and I am a man.

As part of my studies on machismo I used to watch pro wrestling.

Yes it is an act, but a very popular act as one can see if one watches the audience.

Pro wrestling is all about machismo. The stereotyped displays are, to me, "unintelligent and violent".

If that example seems weak, consider the displays of machismo in sports, politics, entertainment.

They all appeal to the less intelligent and those eager for violence, or so it seems to me.

Sad to say, but in my opinion the war in Iraq is all about machismo: Bush II had to prove he's a better man than Bush I.

Your Politics May Vary

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

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ORIGINAL: breatheasone

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Because not all women are the same and your parents didn't know everything.

OUCH.....

::smile::

But its true nonetheless.

Aqua has only stated that which is obvious to everyone.

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

When I watched, women wrestlers were a novelty. Perhaps that has changed.

If I had to guess, I'd say either their fans are amongst some of the sub men seeking dommes, or perhaps machismo men who dream of conqueroring a warrior-maiden (a Red Sonja).

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ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

“Machismo; helping dominant blokes get laid since 15,000 BC.”
 

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ORIGINAL: camille65

 Lol Bob, WWE is exaggerated machismo to the extreme. It is a caricature of that trait and I'm surprised to see you take it as a serious example.

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ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
That's a staggeringly over-simplified series of statements.  Those concerning the Gulf conflict/Iraq are also clearly incorrect, as the situation is vastly more complex than the one you paint, and the pro-wrestling references are highly questionable in this context; a single, heavily-caricatured and over-inflated sub-class does not prove a global theory.

As to the original point, I think it depends entirely how you frame a definition of “machismo”; for some it’s merely a pride in “maleness”, without much of the more dubious elements you’re trying to tack onto it.  For others, it’s become (through misuse of the word and context) the worst excesses of the destructive male forces.  Personally, I’ve found that those who adopt a posture of machismo tend to be fools or charlatans, whereas those who merely take a simple pride in their own abilities, and often those of others, are positive forces in life.

As to the “why” you keep asking, I would suggest that, historically, women have been attracted to strong, male providers, from cave times onwards.  The fact that these desires are somewhat frowned upon by society these days as a sign of an under-evolved mind, as if they were something bad, only increases their appeal to some women.  It’s Newtonian; you push society in one direction here, an equal and opposite reaction takes place there.

Some women are into strong-minded, direct, “male” men.  Some aren’t.  T’was ever thus, and forever will be.  And a jolly good thing too, say I.

“Machismo; helping dominant blokes get laid since 15,000 BC.”