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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 5:13:25 AM   
SixFootMaster


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Quite simply, psychology is largely theoretical nature - embodying various concepts and disciplines that have no formal and tangible existence. They are abstractions, methods by which we can quantify that which would otherwise be unquantifiable. How do you assess the degree of passivity or assertiveness of an individual except by some preconceived reference point. These studies are largely nebulous in nature because they have to be, if you desire hard concrete facts, then psychology is not for you.

I can however give you these facts, and allow you to digest them how you will:

1. The traits of the slave are different from those of the submissive
2. Women - and men, universally, contain in their make up traits of one, both, or neither
3. Women and men who contain neither may further contain the traits of the dominant and/or the master, these are not the topic of this discussion
4. Women for whom the slave traits are dominant in their psychology, identify as slave
5. Women for whom the submissive traits are dominant in their psychology, identify as submissive
6. In all populations of a sufficient size the distribution of psychological traits when normalized fits a statistical bell curve
7. We call this distribution a figurative "spectrum" since it accurately describes the variance between one extreme to the other.
8. There are, as noted, women who occupy these extremes and possess fully only the psychological traits of either the slave or the submissive

In general, it not possible to know exactly where in this spectrum a given individual lays, but we can accurately make these further statements.

1. A woman who lays in the 50% to the slave side of the median, is more slave than submissive, and will respond and enjoy those interactions to a greater extent than those of a submissive
2. A woman who lays in the 50% to the submissive side of the median, is more submissive than slave, and will respond and enjoy those interactions to a greater extent than those of a slave
3. A woman who lays exactly on the extreme of the slave side is a true slave, and is incapable of enjoying or being fulfilled by submissive interactions
4. A woman who lays exactly on the extreme of the submissive side is a true submissive, and is incapable of enjoying or being fullfilled by slave interactions
5. A woman who occupies the median point, and is an equal balance of slave and submissive is equally fullfilled and enjoys both.

Now, I'll add some general points:

1. Treating a submissive like a slave will damage her, attempting to break her like a slave will destroy her
2. Even a woman who is significantly or nearly completely slave, will be harmed by an attempt to fully break her



(in reply to Rover)
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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 5:33:50 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

1. The traits of the slave are different from those of the submissive


Let's start with this, though I have questions about much of your post.  Still, this seems a likely and appropriate beginning.  What are the traits of a slave that are different from those of a submissive?
 
John
 
P.S. - There are other lifestylers with backgrounds in the mental health profession, such as Guy Baldwin who is a psychotherapist and has worked extensively within the Leather scene.  I've never heard anything of the sort from them, so this is certainly "new ground" you're breaking.

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 6:03:32 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
Let's start with this, though I have questions about much of your post.  Still, this seems a likely and appropriate beginning.  What are the traits of a slave that are different from those of a submissive?

Quite frankly: in my opinion if you are not able to distinguish between the two yourself, if you are innately unable to recognize the true nature of a person, if someone has to tell you how to go about it by listing distinguishing traits, then you are unfit to occupy yourself with this - or indeed any - aspect of ownership.

< Message edited by Rule -- 10/24/2007 6:17:38 AM >

(in reply to Rover)
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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 6:11:47 AM   
SixFootMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

1. The traits of the slave are different from those of the submissive


Let's start with this, though I have questions about much of your post.  Still, this seems a likely and appropriate beginning.  What are the traits of a slave that are different from those of a submissive?
 
John
 
P.S. - There are other lifestylers with backgrounds in the mental health profession, such as Guy Baldwin who is a psychotherapist and has worked extensively within the Leather scene.  I've never heard anything of the sort from them, so this is certainly "new ground" you're breaking.


New ground? Hardly. Look, I'm being rather patient to this point but it is becoming increasingly obvious that you are neither interested answers not understanding of them when given. Yes, the traits of the submissive and slave are entirely different. If you do not know this, seriously, if you do not understand this single fundamental fact, then there is nothing I can say that is going to explain it to you.

It is not my job to teach you what you should already know.

(in reply to Rover)
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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 6:31:00 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

New ground? Hardly. Look, I'm being rather patient to this point but it is becoming increasingly obvious that you are neither interested answers not understanding of them when given. Yes, the traits of the submissive and slave are entirely different. If you do not know this, seriously, if you do not understand this single fundamental fact, then there is nothing I can say that is going to explain it to you.

It is not my job to teach you what you should already know.


Then it should be quite simple for someone as learned as yourself to list a few of those traits.  I don't think that's too much to ask for, since you refer to them repeatedly and they are the fulcrum upon which the entirety of your theory rests. 
 
How about starting with... say... ten traits that are uniquely "slave".  Or five if that's too much for you. 
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 6:39:49 AM   
Rule


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How about you go find a Mistress and beg her to collar you?

(in reply to Rover)
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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 6:43:43 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

How about you go find a Mistress and beg her to collar you?


I'm sorry, did you say something intelligent?  Anything?
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 6:51:15 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster
I'm going to borrow from Rule here, since the terminology is simpler and more precise:

At last: someone who attends to me, as all ought to obey and attend to me. Well done, SFM!
Oké, that is my third or perhaps my tenth convert. Six billion more to go... Anyone that does not convert may join Rover in eternal oblivion or damnation. (I recommend oblivion; damnation hurts.)

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 6:55:12 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

1. The traits of the slave are different from those of the submissive


Let's start with this, though I have questions about much of your post.  Still, this seems a likely and appropriate beginning.  What are the traits of a slave that are different from those of a submissive?
 
John
 
P.S. - There are other lifestylers with backgrounds in the mental health profession, such as Guy Baldwin who is a psychotherapist and has worked extensively within the Leather scene.  I've never heard anything of the sort from them, so this is certainly "new ground" you're breaking.


New ground? Hardly. Look, I'm being rather patient to this point but it is becoming increasingly obvious that you are neither interested answers not understanding of them when given. Yes, the traits of the submissive and slave are entirely different. If you do not know this, seriously, if you do not understand this single fundamental fact, then there is nothing I can say that is going to explain it to you.

It is not my job to teach you what you should already know.



Are you related to KingBob by any chance?

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 7:02:27 AM   
SixFootMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

New ground? Hardly. Look, I'm being rather patient to this point but it is becoming increasingly obvious that you are neither interested answers not understanding of them when given. Yes, the traits of the submissive and slave are entirely different. If you do not know this, seriously, if you do not understand this single fundamental fact, then there is nothing I can say that is going to explain it to you.

It is not my job to teach you what you should already know.


Then it should be quite simple for someone as learned as yourself to list a few of those traits.  I don't think that's too much to ask for, since you refer to them repeatedly and they are the fulcrum upon which the entirety of your theory rests. 
 
How about starting with... say... ten traits that are uniquely "slave".  Or five if that's too much for you. 
 
John


Indeed. Simplified in hope of your wearisome understanding.

The Slave

The desire to be possessed/owned in the sense of a possesion.
The desire to be subsumed to the will of another.
The need for this transition of control to be forced, and sudden, and without consent.
Fulfilment through the anihilation of self
A rejection or innate abhorence of control of themselves, and a general malaise when forced to do so.
Control focused.

Commonly manifests with particularly hard, severe or extreme rape fantasies focusing more fully on the ownership and being taken.

The Submissive

The desire to serve, and fulfill the needs of another
The drive to be pleasing and the need to please
Sustained by the visual, emotional, physical et al feed back from the object of their service, that they are indeed pleasing.
Pleasure focused.
A general lack of control concerns, a willingness/eagerness in approach to serving

It's rough, I'm tired, it will suffice for now.

Edit: Just so you know, I ceased replying for your snide sake, this is for the benefit of those who are actually interested, that are reading.


< Message edited by SixFootMaster -- 10/24/2007 7:08:46 AM >

(in reply to Rover)
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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 7:04:08 AM   
SixFootMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

1. The traits of the slave are different from those of the submissive


Let's start with this, though I have questions about much of your post.  Still, this seems a likely and appropriate beginning.  What are the traits of a slave that are different from those of a submissive?
 
John
 
P.S. - There are other lifestylers with backgrounds in the mental health profession, such as Guy Baldwin who is a psychotherapist and has worked extensively within the Leather scene.  I've never heard anything of the sort from them, so this is certainly "new ground" you're breaking.


New ground? Hardly. Look, I'm being rather patient to this point but it is becoming increasingly obvious that you are neither interested answers not understanding of them when given. Yes, the traits of the submissive and slave are entirely different. If you do not know this, seriously, if you do not understand this single fundamental fact, then there is nothing I can say that is going to explain it to you.

It is not my job to teach you what you should already know.



Are you related to KingBob by any chance?


Wouldn't have a clue who you're talking about, so the reference is lost on me.

Edit: Looked up his profile, nothing in it.


< Message edited by SixFootMaster -- 10/24/2007 7:22:32 AM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 7:05:04 AM   
subtee


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What say we take the dice and go to Vegas, baby!

Odds are we'd have much more fun...

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 7:06:30 AM   
SixFootMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

What say we take the dice and go to Vegas, baby!

Odds are we'd have much more fun...


Sounds good. Roulette, craps, or something in the cards?

(in reply to subtee)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 7:14:16 AM   
subtee


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Roulette, sure, as long as it's not Russian; craps, absolutely...not to be confused with crabs; something in the cards? God, I hope so!

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 7:16:16 AM   
westy2


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As SFM stated in an earlier post: 

"Breaking doesn't require fear or force - leastwise not physical force. It requires patience, intense understanding, and dedication. It does frequently involve degrees of pain, since what is being induced is a final letting go of resistance to being, and transitioning to simply being, and this is happening at a fundemental level within the woman. It takes a great deal of care, and an intimate connection with the slave. However, as dangerous as it is, and as abhorrent as it might seem, for this rare woman, it is the only way in which she can truly be fulfilled. "

This fits my personal situation the best, thank you, SFM.

I have been reading this post with interest, and for more than 2 years I have been in the process of being "broken" by Master.  I have not felt a loss of spirit or worth; rather, I have been enhanced by what  my mind has been able to let go of, if that makes any sense.  The word "broken" doesn't begin to describe the path that is taken to completeness. But perhaps it is appropriate in that to rise to a higher level of consciousness, the current inventory in my mind needs to be put on clearance, cleaned out and restocked.  :)

He has the power to build me up, or knock me down, yet He uses it wisely.



_____________________________

**there's a smile when the pain comes**

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 7:19:04 AM   
SixFootMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Roulette, sure, as long as it's not Russian; craps, absolutely...not to be confused with crabs; something in the cards? God, I hope so!


Hahaha! You, I like. You play the game well.

(in reply to subtee)
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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 7:30:22 AM   
MrrPete


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I would never want a submissive that I had to "break", and I would
never deal with a submissive that wants to be "broken".
It goes against what I am about and what I am looking for.


I couldn't agree more. Took the words right out of my mouth.

I'd like to add that whether sub or slave both have the characteristic of obedience.
Obedience is what I desire. Obedience that comes from within. That she DECIDES to
be obedient because she knows it will please me and she has learned that I would do nothing to do any permanent harm to her or ask her to do anything illegal.

It's easy to obey when asked to do what you like But sometimes difficult to do things
you don't like. This is the level of obedience that I desire. That she will decide to
obey
even though she doesn't like it.



_____________________________

Awrabest,

Mr. Pete

Boycott Citgo

(in reply to MzMia)
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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 7:38:36 AM   
sweetNsmartBBW


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Okay...another question, and I'm guessing it's just that Rule and SFM have differing opinions on this, but...since I can't know that with any clarity without asking:

Did not Rule say a slave had to ~ask~ for this to happen?  That they initiated the breaking by requesting it be done to them?

Yet, SFM, said one of the characteristics of a slave is  "The need for this transition of control to be forced, and sudden, and without consent."

If those two statements are in agreement- then I'm definitely missing something here... 


_____________________________

There are two kinds of strengths: the strength to lead, and the strength to follow; the strength to control, and the strength to yield. There are two kinds of power: the power to strip away another's soul bare, and the power to stand naked. Yaldah Tova

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 7:39:33 AM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

Hahaha! You, I like. You play the game well.



Thank you kindly. "Games" are good....

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/24/2007 7:45:29 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

If those two statements are in agreement- then I'm definitely missing something here... 


That's kind of the point.
It is a paradox... some people don't want to be all submissive and such, but they want to be 'forced' to submit...after they allow it to happen...


Kind of like a bungee jump...after you make the safety precautions and pay to be strapped in, you let gravity take over...knowing in the back of your mind that there is a safety harness, but feeling in the pit of your stomach, that you are a helpess falling object.


Clear?

(in reply to sweetNsmartBBW)
Profile   Post #: 100
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