RE: What are words for?

RE: What are words for? (Full Version)

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xoxi -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:04:01 AM)
No, I'm saying that I DO NOT USE SAFEWORDS because I see them as commands. The response to that was a bunch of people saying "no they are not commands your reasoning for doing what you do is wrong" I see them as commands, ergo I do not use them. Are you saying that I am forbidden from viewing them as a command and must therefore change the dynamic of my own relationship or else find new reasoning to not use them? Because that's really what I'm hearing. I say that if you don't see them as a command THATS FINE You on the other hand insist that they are NOT a command. Who is forcing their view on whom?

IrishMist -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:07:10 AM)
Umm Julia? [sm=banghead.gif][sm=banghead.gif][sm=banghead.gif] LOL... it would be easier to just bang your head against a wall than try to reason with her... I learned that awhile ago

juliaoceania -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:08:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xoxi No, I'm saying that I DO NOT USE SAFEWORDS because I see them as commands. The response to that was a bunch of people saying "no they are not commands your reasoning for doing what you do is wrong" I see them as commands, ergo I do not use them. Are you saying that I am forbidden from viewing them as a command and must therefore change the dynamic of my own relationship or else find new reasoning to not use them? Because that's really what I'm hearing. No, what I am saying is that if other people see them as being emergency code words that give them information... that is what they are. If a dominant sees them as a tool to assess a submissive, then that is what they are. I have no problem with we do not use safewords because it feels like a command to us. Or I see safewords as a command in my relationship, but I can see how others might use them differently. That is a different statement than Safewords are commands

xoxi -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:09:43 AM)
Irish - that's because she's not reasoning with me. She's reasoning with the words she is putting in my mouth. If she took my words at face value, and read "I do what I want for my reasons, you do what you want for your reasons" just once, out of the twenty times I've written it, we might get somewhere. I'm not saying anyone has to have my motivations. I'm just saying that my motivations for what I do are as valid as her motivations for what she does. Is that really so wrong?

xoxi -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:12:27 AM)
OMG. Is that what this is about. I do not use safewords because IN MY MIND I see it as a command. I assumed that every single time I said "this is my view, you can disagree" that was implied. Does it make more sense now?

IrishMist -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:13:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xoxi Irish - that's because she's not reasoning with me. She's reasoning with the words she is putting in my mouth. If she took my words at face value, and read "I do what I want for my reasons, you do what you want for your reasons" just once, out of the twenty times I've written it, we might get somewhere. I'm not saying anyone has to have my motivations. I'm just saying that my motivations for what I do are as valid as her motivations for what she does. Is that really so wrong? I have read Julia's thoughts on this board a bit longer than yours...I very rarely ever agree with anything she ever says; yet, I find her to be one of the most reasonable people I have ever come across. She heard what you had to say; she took it to heart; you however, have continued to insist that what you say is what others should be following... you think you don't come across in that way... but you do. It's not what you are saying hun, it's HOW you are saying it. Perhaps you should go back and do nothing but look at your words and think how you respond to yourself.

Stephann -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:14:26 AM)
I see people that do not have safewords as taking their partner's life in their hands, for me not to have a safeword would mean that my dominant did not care about me. I understand you may see it differently, but to me I think that it shows just how little a dominant cares about his submissive... that is just what I think, you may think something different... but that does not mean I am wrong... If I may... I think this is the disconnect. The first red statement projects 'my' belief onto you. The second red statement asserts complete ownership over my belief. My belief, being what it is, is completely true and valid to me. My belief, as a projection, may or may not have value or meaning to you. "I don't believe in the use of safewords" Is not an ambiguous statement. It certainly asserts my position on the issue. "I think people should not use safewords" States a position that those who use safewords go against my belief. "I think people who use safewords are stupid" Is obviously an inflammatory statement; regardless of what my agenda is, I'm going to incite hostility. The whole of this nit, is that we have reasons for what we do and do not do. So do other people. I'm not responsible for what others choose to do or not do, but for the purposes of discussion, I enjoy exchanging ideas so long as they aren't touted as the only possible solution. In this case, it seems to be about semantics. Stephan

xoxi -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:18:33 AM)
I've re-read my own posts three times now when I was quoting them...they made sense to me but I guess that's why I wrote them the way I did. I don't subscribe to the "don't judge people at all" opinion. For example I think abortion is wrong. I understand that some people disagree. If a woman had an abortion I wouldn't scream "BABY KILLER" to her face but I personally would still think that was wrong. I feel that's my right...just like it's anyone else's right to hug her and console her and tell her she did the right thing. People have different views based on their own life experience. I don't feel that holding fast to my own in any way negates anyone else's RIGHT to hold theirs. That's also my opinion. It's not a popular one, but it's one that I live by. I really planned on just making one post to this thread - I was surprised when everyone started to tell me that I was wrong and that I couldn't see it as a command because safewords are inherently NOT commands. I don't think I was preaching to anyone to share my opinion - I was just expressing it. I really don't care if anyone agrees with it so long as they don't forbid me from holding it.

IrishMist -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:20:15 AM)
/shrug Then by all means... continue on in the way you are

xoxi -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:21:17 AM)
I most certainly will [:)]

chellekitty -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:21:28 AM)
it's not what you say, it's how you say it....that statement has gotten me a lot further than being stubborn and wanting it my way, ever has....if 10 people are arguing with me, and i feel we are all saying the same thing, maybe i am not saying something the right way... please feel free to be offended...if i did offend you it was because you saw the truth in the statements i have said in this post... chelle...who is not perfect...and still says things the wrong way

xoxi -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:24:09 AM)
Well yes, but I didn't feel we were all saying the same thing. I felt like I was saying one thing, they were saying a second thing, and they were accusing me of saying a third thing. My posts weren't to convince anyone of anything besides the fact that I was saying thing #1 and not thing #3 [:'(]

Stephann -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:28:12 AM)
See, my big thing with safewords aren't that they're commands (I don't think they are exactly) but in part for the same underlying reason. They present the submissive with a big red 'EXIT' button. "The sword itself incites to violence" Instead of being in the headspace I want her to be, she's thinking about how much more can she takes till she pulls the plug (even if she never does.) It's a distraction that suggests that Big Red Exit Button has more authority than I do (even if I'm the one who chooses to stop or not.) By requiring communication and that she trust me, I might not play nearly as hard as I would like; but it's like doing a 20' highwire act without a net, instead of an 80' highwire act with a net. The 20' might not seem as dramatic, but it's obviously more dangerous. Personally, I don't like playing with that net; it suggests that our interaction is fantasy. When I'm using a knife on my girl, the activities we're involved in are most certainly not fantasy. My final concern with safewords, are that they can seem to provide a false sense of security. The Dominant thinks "well, she hasn't safeworded, so I guess I can keep going." The submissive thinks "I don't want to dissappoint him; I probably should safeword, but I want him to be proud of how much I can take." The focus ceases to be on how intense and enjoyable the scene is, and becomes a 'how far can this game of chicken go?' Removing the safeword mechanic, and relying on normal communication eliminates all of this from the headspace. Just my thoughts. Stephan

kyraofMists -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:29:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xoxi Well yes, but I didn't feel we were all saying the same thing. I felt like I was saying one thing, they were saying a second thing, and they were accusing me of saying a third thing. My posts weren't to convince anyone of anything besides the fact that I was saying thing #1 and not thing #3 [:'(] You think you are saying X. Multiple people who do not know each other and have disagreed vehemently with each other in the past are all saying that what they hear from you is Y. A logical conclusion is that you are not saying what you think you are saying. If one or two people think you are saying something different, then maybe there is something wrong with their perception. But if multiple people who frequently disagree with each other are all seeing your posts from the same perspective, then it is more likely that you are not saying what you think you are saying. Knight's Kyra

velvetears -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:29:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist you however, have continued to insist that what you say is what others should be following... you think you don't come across in that way... but you do. It's not what you are saying hun, it's HOW you are saying it. Perhaps you should go back and do nothing but look at your words and think how you respond to yourself. i don't think so at all.... i did not see her saying others should be following what she was saying.. she did not come across to me like that.

xoxi -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:33:09 AM)
Velvet tears - thank you. I wasn't trying to say that. Kyra - That's why I kept posting, trying to specify what exactly I was saying. I tried to say it ten different ways from Tuesday - it still wasn't getting across. I put it in the plainest English possible and people still said "no thats not what you're saying, you didn't say that" instead of accepting that maybe, just maybe, that's what I had intended to say in the first place. I probably did say it wrong at first, but if I follow that with five posts about "no this is what I meant" i expect people to give the benefit of the doubt and accept that IS what I meant rather than insist I meant something else.

juliaoceania -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:33:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann See, my big thing with safewords aren't that they're commands (I don't think they are exactly) but in part for the same underlying reason. They present the submissive with a big red 'EXIT' button. "The sword itself incites to violence" Instead of being in the headspace I want her to be, she's thinking about how much more can she takes till she pulls the plug (even if she never does.) It's a distraction that suggests that Big Red Exit Button has more authority than I do (even if I'm the one who chooses to stop or not.) By requiring communication and that she trust me, I might not play nearly as hard as I would like; but it's like doing a 20' highwire act without a net, instead of an 80' highwire act with a net. The 20' might not seem as dramatic, but it's obviously more dangerous. Personally, I don't like playing with that net; it suggests that our interaction is fantasy. When I'm using a knife on my girl, the activities we're involved in are most certainly not fantasy. My final concern with safewords, are that they can seem to provide a false sense of security. The Dominant thinks "well, she hasn't safeworded, so I guess I can keep going." The submissive thinks "I don't want to dissappoint him; I probably should safeword, but I want him to be proud of how much I can take." The focus ceases to be on how intense and enjoyable the scene is, and becomes a 'how far can this game of chicken go?' Removing the safeword mechanic, and relying on normal communication eliminates all of this from the headspace. Just my thoughts. Stephan I just thought I would point out how beautifully you communicated your ideas.... because no where in there was there a universal rule that implied the same was true for everyone.. no blanket statements... you used words like seems and tends to. And you personalized it in the context of your relationships instead of pointing out what is happening in other people's relationships... this is why your post does not come off as one true wayish to me... and it shows just how important semantics are when we are communicating on the internet with only our words to represent our meanings.

Archer -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 1:10:32 PM)
Not much anyone can do when a person refuses to see that the problem is as much an ENCODE problem as a DECODE problem. (IE as much your writting it wrong as anyone's reading it wrong) At this point the idea of communicating information and perspective has been sacrificed to the idea of being "right". (and possibly I have fallen victim to it as much as you have)

Alumbrado -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 1:22:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: xoxi Why are your beliefs about my feelings valid, yet my beliefs about yours are invalid? Edited to add - my beliefs are about a safeword. An inanimate, intangible concept. Not your relationship. Not you. Just about a concept - I think the concept implies "x" and you think the concept implies "y" - I'm not telling you that you have to view it as x, I'm just saying that I do view it as x. Your relationship is not my concern. You insist safewords are commands, by this insistence you are stating that those of us that use them or have them are commanding our dominants... that is making a value judgment about our submission in my mind... and that IS invalid because you have been repeatedly told otherwise by many people... and you are telling us the intention behind the words that we say, only we know what we intend by how we communicate... NOT YOU... thinking you do is just wrong headed and it is not valid... clear as mud? That has to be one of the most intellectually dishonest pieces of bullying trollage (not to mention projection) I've seen in a while.

MidnightMaiden -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 1:27:40 PM)
quote: First of all, your breathing can be an exceptionally inaccurate method of determining what is happening (unless you cease breathing, which is almost universally regarded as a problem). Thanks for the two smart arse comments I received from two other posters besides yourself John, being genuinely knew to the scene and still learning many things, it's great to have responses that are belittling. I believe that the initial question I responded to said "you realize your breath is restricted to the point that you are unable to breathe at all". So I made the assumption that I had stopped breathing, which I would assume any Top would be able to spot? Is there a Top reading that that would not notice their bottom had stopped breathing entirely? I am not talking about being able to trust my Top to monitor slight fluctations, I am talking about being able to trust a Top to spot that I had STOPPED BREATHING.

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