RE: What are words for? (Full Version)

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MidnightMaiden -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 9:01:55 PM)

quote:

And my response was not intended to be smart arsed, so if you interpreted it that way you infered something on your own.


I apologise John I read what I wrote and it did sound like I was including your response in the smart arse category, when I actually meant to exclude it from the two others, which were about using xray vision to monitor heartbeat *shrug* how that was disagreeing with my genuine (although obviously naive) belief I will never know.

I would never have conceived of a scene where you could not monitor the bottom breathing (or why you would want to take such a risk)... but live and learn.



juliaoceania -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 9:05:24 PM)

quote:

I think the idea here, as simply put as possible, is that when the submissive says "Red" in a scene, should the dominant choose to continue anyway, it would be seen almost universally as abusive. 

 
I would not consider it universally abusive.. it would depend on what the word means between them...

Conversely if a submissive said "Master, my spleen is ruptured" and he did not stop, would you see it as abusive?

What is the difference between "red" and "Master my back just snapped and I cannot feel my legs"?




briska -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:47:29 PM)

Well, that's the trick isn't it? How does one person not say anything, but the Master get the hint, and the other scream "OH GOD NO PLEASE STOP" and yet the Master pays no heed? Meh, all this debating is pretty much doomed at this point. Things like safewords are fun to discuss in an intellectual sense, but in no way are any of we *right* versus someone else being *wrong*.

Stupidheads.

( ;) )



slavegirljoy -> RE: What are words for? (11/15/2007 10:50:48 PM)

Fast Reply:

Safewords, use 'em, if you've got 'em. Personally, i don't use 'em, don't got 'em, never needed 'em, wouldn't be in a relationship that required 'em.

i have never told a guy to "stop" anything he was doing to me. There have been a few times that i cried and my crying caused the man i was with to stop what he was doing and check to see if i was alright and to find out why i was crying but, that was the choice and decision of the man, which wasn't based on anything i said but, was based on his observation of my behavior and he adjusted his actions according to how he saw me reacting. That's what i call a 'gentle man', one who is watchful of and concerned about my reactions and wants the experience to be satisfying for me, as well as for himself. He isn't just beating or banging the crap out of me until he hears me say, "Stop" or "Red" or "Uncle" or something else. i guess i've been very lucky (or maybe just a good judge of character), since the only men i have ever been with, sexually, have all been true gentlemen, even though some of have also been sadists, who loved to endulge my masochistic needs, but none of them ever made me feel unsafe or wishing i had an emergency switch, in the form of a word or some other device, in order to get them to come to a screeching halt.

i don't knock anyone, who chooses to have a safeword. It's just not for me. i really don't want to have to think that much. i prefer to just feel and, rely on my Master to do the thinking, which He's very good at.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David



Rover -> RE: What are words for? (11/16/2007 5:46:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Hi John,

I think the idea here, as simply put as possible, is that when the submissive says "Red" in a scene, should the dominant choose to continue anyway, it would be seen almost universally as abusive. 

 
Stephann, I simply disagree with that statement completely.  Please note the number of respondants to this thread who have stated that in their relationships, "Red" means no such thing. 
 
Those who state they don't use safewords also don't adhere to that practice, or are you stating that if their bottom/submissive/slave were to say "Red" they'd be obligated to stop as well, or face universal condemnation as abusive?  Because if that's the case, then their bottom/submissive/slave has the same "control" but simply hasn't used it... yet.
 
quote:
It gives the submissive the power to 'pull the plug.'  If the submissive in question actively does not desire a plug to be pulled, giving her one would be on par with removing the slave's collar.  It's telling her she can't ride a bike without training wheels (even if the training wheels are supposed to be for her own good.)

 
There are many types of "submissive", and people choose the one that works best for them in their relationship.
 
There are many types of "slave", and people choose the one that works best for them in their relationship. 
 
There are many types of relationship dynamics, and people choose the one that works best for them in their relationship.
 
And there are many types of meanings for "safewords", and people also choose the one that works best for them in their relationship.
 
Your statement above necessitates that there is only one meainging for safeword in all relationships (the "one twue way" of safewords) in which it must mean that the scene comes to a stop.  Why do you accept that there are people for whom safewords do not apply, and yet deny that there are people for whom safewords mean something other than what you think they should mean? 
 
What happens when a bottom/submissive/slave who does not have a safeword yells "Red"?  Must it result in the stoppage of play?  If not, then the term itself has no "power", but only the meaning that each relationship gives it.  And if so, then all bottoms/submissives/slaves are actually in control... just that some have yet to exercise their control.
 
Either way, your theory is screwed.

quote:


Nobody is saying she can't say "Help, I'm in danger!" in the scene.  Rather, it's saying that her cries for help remain in the discretion of the dominant to act on.  Obviously, this mode of play isn't for everyone.


There are many ways of saying "Help, I'm in danger!!" during a scene.  And the scene participants have to decide for themselves, without you or me or anyone else telling them what they should decide, what terms they will use and what they will mean.  You use "Help, I'm in danger" and that may cause you to immediately know that your bottom/submissive/slave is in trouble (ie: it conveys information to you).  But I may be engaged in a rape scene, in which "Help, I'm in danger!!" can reasonably be considered a hot component of the scene itself, and I would not know at all that she was in danger. 
 
You're hung up on the "power" that you, personally, assign to "Red" as opposed to "Help, I'm in danger!!".  And that's fine for you, in your relationships.  Use whatever terms have meaning for you.  But conversely, people use other terms in their relationships (such as "Red") that have meanings for them that only they have agreed upon and are not subject to you defining them for everyone else.
 
The only place where there is "universal" agreement about the meaning of terms is where people gather together in order to play under a single set of agreed upon rules (ie: play parties, dungeons, clubs).  In those venues, anyone that plays consents to the host's play rules and meaning of terms for several reasons.  Amongst them are:
 
1.  The host is only willing to accept a certain amount of liability. 
2.  The host may not have facilities for certain types of play.
3.  The host may have a personal aversion to certain types of play.
4.  The host (and their designates in the form of DM's) must be able to recognize when there is a problem, necessitating that everyone have the same meaning for the same terms.

John



Rover -> RE: What are words for? (11/16/2007 5:50:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

i have never told a guy to "stop" anything he was doing to me. There have been a few times that i cried and my crying caused the man i was with to stop what he was doing and check to see if i was alright and to find out why i was crying but, that was the choice and decision of the man, which wasn't based on anything i said but, was based on his observation of my behavior and he adjusted his actions according to how he saw me reacting.


And how does this differ from a safe signal (dropping a rubber ball, for instance) that causes a Top to check you out to see if you're ok (his choice as well)?  Wasn't your crying simply a safe signal?
 
John



chellekitty -> RE: What are words for? (11/16/2007 6:16:18 AM)

if you don't play casually, please don't read this exaple and then tell me how irrelevant it is because you don't play casusally...there are a great number of people who do...

there was a time when i engaged in a type of play that i had never done before with a very skilled Top, at a play part at a national event, whom i had met only once before in passing....we negotiated a scene (went through the toy bag, i let him know of medical issues, and set up a safe word - regular red and yellow)....and went and found a play space...at one point i was on the ground screaming....becuase that was all i could do....i could have easily got up and walked away, i was not restrained, but i did not want it to stop....so i screamed, to deal with the pain....and then he stopped to move to another area and the first thing that popped out of my mouth was "why did you stop?"

if crying stops an activity, what would screaming do? if a change in breathing patterns stops an activity, what would screaming do? if going limp stopped a sceen, what would falling on the floor while screaming do?

i knew my safeword the whole time...i did not go into subspace, he wasn't my Dominant, and that wasn't the purpose of the scene...and i did not use either, yellow or red, once...but it was there in case my ankle dislocated (it does that randomly, and has been since i was 11) since its hard to tell the "OW OW OW"s from the "OW OW OW"s or something like that...

but i may be doing this [sm=banghead.gif] in even responding....oh well...one more try?

chelle



slavegirljoy -> RE: What are words for? (11/16/2007 6:36:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
And how does this differ from a safe signal (dropping a rubber ball, for instance) that causes a Top to check you out to see if you're ok (his choice as well)?  Wasn't your crying simply a safe signal?
 
John

No, because my tears were not a signal to stop what was happening. They were just a result of a lot of emotion and my body's way of expressing my emotions. One time, i started to cry because i realized that my relationship with that man was over, even as he was "making love" to me, at the time. It was just that moment of realization and i was sad about it and i started to cry.

Another time, i started crying because i was so happy. i was with the most wonderful man and it was such a wonderful feeling that tears started to fall. i wasn't sobbing but, he knew that i was crying and he was concerned and wanted to know what i was crying about so, he took a time out to talk to me about what was going on and what was making me cry.

i have never consciously decided to cry. i'm an emotional person and my emotions come out spontaneously. i have never used my tears to manipulate a situation. i can see how someone might think that but, that's not something i do.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David



juliaoceania -> RE: What are words for? (11/16/2007 6:41:45 AM)

quote:

if crying stops an activity, what would screaming do? if a change in breathing patterns stops an activity, what would screaming do? if going limp stopped a sceen, what would falling on the floor while screaming do?


I think this depends on the top in question... just because it was within your comfort level does not mean the top will feel the same way. Some tops (i used top to refer to anyone in the dominant role in the scene) do not want to see tears or screaming, some do. Some tops do not push a bottom, some do. Since it is about both top and bottom, I would think it depends on the top as to whether tears or screaming would stop them... and I could see how a bottom-type person could use tears to top from the bottom if they knew their top was going to stop if they cried, which makes tears a tool to stop a scene for that couple.

I have read from several people that they do not play in such a way that they could be damaged... well some of us take more risks than others. I chose a Dominant that would eventually play with me on the edges, even though we haven't done that very much yet... So I can understand those who just flog a little here and there making the assertion that they could never ever have their hand slip or an outcome they did not intend, because their partner does not wish to push the envelop... some of us want to do that, and an emergency signal/safeword/codeword is helpful


I respect the fact that some people do not want to be pushed, but that does not mean none of us do. I revel in my masochistic side, masochism has nothing to do with my submission. Although I am submissive to his whims while we play, that does not make my masochism a part of my submission... The submission is about the entirety of the relationship, not really about the pain I enjoy when we play. I submit to the way he wants to inflict it, but my masochism does not equate submission the way it would for non-masochists in my opinion.






Rover -> RE: What are words for? (11/16/2007 6:53:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

No, because my tears were not a signal to stop what was happening. They were just a result of a lot of emotion and my body's way of expressing my emotions. One time, i started to cry because i realized that my relationship with that man was over, even as he was "making love" to me, at the time. It was just that moment of realization and i was sad about it and i started to cry.

Another time, i started crying because i was so happy. i was with the most wonderful man and it was such a wonderful feeling that tears started to fall. i wasn't sobbing but, he knew that i was crying and he was concerned and wanted to know what i was crying about so, he took a time out to talk to me about what was going on and what was making me cry.

i have never consciously decided to cry. i'm an emotional person and my emotions come out spontaneously. i have never used my tears to manipulate a situation. i can see how someone might think that but, that's not something i do.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David



So crying can mean different things depending upon the context.  Why can't safewords and safe signals?
 
John



Alumbrado -> RE: What are words for? (11/16/2007 8:21:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MidnightMaiden

quote:

And my response was not intended to be smart arsed, so if you interpreted it that way you infered something on your own.


I apologise John I read what I wrote and it did sound like I was including your response in the smart arse category, when I actually meant to exclude it from the two others, which were about using xray vision to monitor heartbeat *shrug* how that was disagreeing with my genuine (although obviously naive) belief I will never know.

I would never have conceived of a scene where you could not monitor the bottom breathing (or why you would want to take such a risk)... but live and learn.


You've never conceived of a scene where the top wouldn't 'just know' whether or not the bottom was in real medical distress, be it heart attack, internal injuries, or suffocation?

Given the possibilities inherent in breath play, suspension, mummification, air beds, electrical play and so forth?

That isn't just naivete.



slavegirljoy -> RE: What are words for? (11/16/2007 8:55:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

So crying can mean different things depending upon the context. 

Yes. Crying has different meanings, tears of happiness and tears of sadness and tears from laughing hard and tears from hurting.

quote:

Why can't safewords and safe signals?

They can and do. They just don't have any meaning or purpose in my relationships.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David




Rover -> RE: What are words for? (11/16/2007 9:14:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

So crying can mean different things depending upon the context. 

Yes. Crying has different meanings, tears of happiness and tears of sadness and tears from laughing hard and tears from hurting.

quote:

Why can't safewords and safe signals?

They can and do. They just don't have any meaning or purpose in my relationships.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David


 
And if left at that, we would have no disagreement.  I have a vehement disagreement with folks like Merc and Stephann (and anyone else) who profess that safewords have a single meaning for all relationships.  And that this universal meaning places control in the hands of all bottoms/submissives/slaves within relationships that employ them.
 
Meaning left to the discretion of the relationship (as you have) is not only realistic, it is also tolerant of the different dynamics inherent to different relationships.  Meaning that is universal (such as Merc and Stephann) ignores the reality expressed by many folks who have posted in this thread stating that safewords mean no such thing in their relationship, and expresses a "one twue way" about the dynamics in all relationships.
 
I cannot begin to imagine how that distinction is not clear.
 
John



Jasmyn -> RE: What are words for? (11/16/2007 9:27:35 AM)

FR - well as fast as one can be after spending two hours picking her way through the road kill ... j/k ... appreciate everyone's input ..

For a longtime I was a stickler for safewords ... then for a longtime I wasn't ... then I was, then I wasn't, then I was, then I wasn't ... hey I'm a Cancer Moon child ...blame the shifting tides on ...well the tides ...

The one argument against safewords I've never been able to wrap my brain around though, even when I was against the use of them, was the perceived diminishment of control the dominant has over the scene if the sub sessioned with one.  Bollocks to that and the horse it rode in on ...

The first time my partner uttered a safeword had nothing to do with his controlling the scene or the sensations put upon his person, well in this case, his mind ... after a long play session, he had a moment of clarity within subspace ...that shocked him to his core ... in his altered state he came over nauseous at the thought ... not because he was in fear of what his mind was telling him...but because the sheer intensity of it overwhelmed him ... we had being doing very little physical play, it was mostly sensual/mental ...you are mine ... kind of stuff ...

He safeworded because he felt he was going to vomit or faint or both ... "Mistress *Jack* (our safeword) ...I feel like I'm going to faint"

Did I feel 'controlled' by him because he safeworded ... hell no  ...knowing his predicament enabled me to continue controlling proceedings ...helping him crawl into bed and holding him in my arms till such time he was able to stand assisted and shower with me ... was preferable to cleaning up his vomit and/or trying to rouse him from a fainting fit

Ahh the memory still makes me wet (pun intended) ... him in lala land unable to comprehend why I his 'Mistress' was helping him to shower and walk and nursing and caring for him ...

Him saying what he did was invaluable ... instead of the scene abruptly ending ...I kept the scene going and going and going ...I was able to keep him in his subspace for hours after ... whereas the vomit and fainting may have just fucked with that mojo a little ... and mine ...

quote:

when a safeword is agreed on, it becomes a command that must be followed in order to maintain the boundaries of the relationship


I guess that is consensual S&M in a nutshell ...YAY ... a trival thing to the writer of this statement ...but not so trival when seen in the big picture as the demarcation between consent and non consent ...

Although I would rework that statement as my personal mantra to read "when a safeword is agreed on, it becomes a means of communication that must be addressed in order to maintain the boundaries that were agreed upon for this relationship, session, or scene" ...which I guess would be my way of saying "you will be safe, I will be sane, and together we will be consensual" ... and edited and highlighted to add:  addressed by BOTH of us ...not just me ... they must take responsibility for using it ...

Pradaig (sorry if I have misspelled your name here ...I've so over the 22 pages of posts to find yours so I can get the spelling right *smooch*) .... offered his experience of squeezing a person's arm ... and not letting up until he felt like it ... that the person could take more pressure because they had no choice to take it because he was not letting up when they asked that he did ... I liked the way you explained that ...and the reasoning for explaining it ... from the opposite side of the debate though ... I allow the use safewords ..not all the time ... when I do my play partners have the use of the word 'mercy' ... *if their predicament is scene related* ... eg during a cock and ball torture peg game ... and well those 'effing pegs hurt like a mofo ...then they can ask for mercy ... it does not mean I will stop the game ...it simply means I am aware they may be reaching a pain limit that they don't think they can push beyond ... sometimes I will relent immediately ...other times I will tell them to bend over and kiss their butts good bye .. I don't feel like being merciful today ... the disclaimer is ...they are told up front before any play happens that this is my m.o ... if they don't want to play on those terms ... then the door will be sure to hit them on the way out ... edited to add: if they remain to play on my terms ... my safety, my sanity remains paramount ... the safeword isn't the be all and end all for me as the top to manage the scene and how they are coping with the play ...

If their issue is not scene related .. eg: ye gawds I gotta pee .. or they have slipped a disc ..or their hand is feeling numb .. .mercy ain't going to cut it ... they need to vocalise the problem ...



briska -> RE: What are words for? (11/16/2007 11:35:43 AM)

Hah, I remember one time I started crying in a scene. We were in public, too, and He ended up checking on me quickly to make sure I was OK. I kind of laughed through my tears and insisted I'd never felt better. It was a very cathartic moment. :)



Stephann -> RE: What are words for? (11/16/2007 12:18:01 PM)

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I would not consider it universally abusive.. it would depend on what the word means between them...

I've been addressing Safewords in the classic sense; predefined signals or statements that enable the submissive to indicate that she either isn't sure she is ok (typically yellow) or that she is most definately not ok (typically red.)  To say it means something else, to me, doesn't qualify as being safewords, but simply 'communication.'  Safewords certainy are a type of communication, but not all communication is a safeword.

Conversely if a submissive said "Master, my spleen is ruptured" and he did not stop, would you see it as abusive?

I'd wonder how she knew it was her spleen.  (j/k)  Seriously, yes I'd consider it abusive.  I've never seen or heard of play progressing to that level of damage, though certainly I can imagine it occurs.

What is the difference between "red" and "Master my back just snapped and I cannot feel my legs"?

See above.  The difference, though, is that 'Red' says to me "Master, I have decided I have been hurt or damaged to a point where I cannot continue.  No, I won't explain why or what until after you've released me from this situation."  If my slave's back snapped, I'd expect her to express her distress in a manner other than just 'red.' 

The extreme examples you provided, however, are not what I'm afraid of happening.  Rather, what I think is a far more realistic risk tends to walk on the more emotional side, and it's very difficult for me to expect a slave in subspace to be capable of using any manner of safeword to indicate emotional (or even physical) distress.  Yet, knowing that 'red' button is there, makes it more difficult for her to simply relax into the knots or locks I put on her, and accept what is being done to her.  It's the difference between a heavy S&M scene with steel cuffs with a latch release, and genuine police cuffs.

Regards,

Stephan



Stephann -> RE: What are words for? (11/16/2007 12:29:55 PM)

There are many types of "submissive", and people choose the one that works best for them in their relationship.
 
There are many types of "slave", and people choose the one that works best for them in their relationship. 
 
There are many types of relationship dynamics, and people choose the one that works best for them in their relationship.
 
And there are many types of meanings for "safewords", and people also choose the one that works best for them in their relationship.

John

This is where I think we're not going to see eye to eye.  As I mentioned to Julia above, I don't see different 'types' of safewords.  Safewords (obviously to me) have a specific purpose as they're defined; for the submissive to alert the dominant that she is in mental or physical distress and that either maybe (typically yellow), or certainly (typically red), she desires to suspend or terminate the session.  Any other form of communication outside of these boundaries, to me, is simply that; communication.  My slave may beg me to end the session.  I may choose to heed her request, or I might choose not to.  The nature of our relationship is such that she expects to be pushed even if it is against her wishes.  That may seem abusive to some, certainly.  For this, assure you, I am no advocate of any 'one true way.'  My perspectives are my own, a few folks might agree, and I expect the majority will not; that's no judgement call on how you or anyone else chooses to approach things.

At any rate, in the places I've played in public, yellow and red were the standards.  They did, in fact, mean "check in" or "stop" respectively.  To respect our hosts, I only engaged in play with people who shared my view on safewords (I rarely play with someone I do not know very well in the first place.)

My hang up, isn't with the codeword, mind you, or 'Help I'm in danger.'  My hang up, is that I expect to retain authority over whether danger actually exists or not.  Ironically, I usually err on the side of caution in the first place.

Again, my observations on safewords are for my own consumption.  If it's not your poisen, there's certainly others.

Regards,

Stephan







, that's cool.  Bear in mind that "Red" could obviously be exchanged for any other term.  What we're disagreeing about, is what the concept of safewords represent
 
Your statement above necessitates that there is only one meainging for safeword in all relationships (the "one twue way" of safewords) in which it must mean that the scene comes to a stop.  Why do you accept that there are people for whom safewords do not apply, and yet deny that there are people for whom safewords mean something other than what you think they should mean? 
 
What happens when a bottom/submissive/slave who does not have a safeword yells "Red"?  Must it result in the stoppage of play?  If not, then the term itself has no "power", but only the meaning that each relationship gives it.  And if so, then all bottoms/submissives/slaves are actually in control... just that some have yet to exercise their control.
 
Either way, your theory is screwed.

quote:


Nobody is saying she can't say "Help, I'm in danger!" in the scene.  Rather, it's saying that her cries for help remain in the discretion of the dominant to act on.  Obviously, this mode of play isn't for everyone.


There are many ways of saying "Help, I'm in danger!!" during a scene.  And the scene participants have to decide for themselves, without you or me or anyone else telling them what they should decide, what terms they will use and what they will mean.  You use "Help, I'm in danger" and that may cause you to immediately know that your bottom/submissive/slave is in trouble (ie: it conveys information to you).  But I may be engaged in a rape scene, in which "Help, I'm in danger!!" can reasonably be considered a hot component of the scene itself, and I would not know at all that she was in danger. 
 
You're hung up on the "power" that you, personally, assign to "Red" as opposed to "Help, I'm in danger!!".  And that's fine for you, in your relationships.  Use whatever terms have meaning for you.  But conversely, people use other terms in their relationships (such as "Red") that have meanings for them that only they have agreed upon and are not subject to you defining them for everyone else.
 
The only place where there is "universal" agreement about the meaning of terms is where people gather together in order to play under a single set of agreed upon rules (ie: play parties, dungeons, clubs).  In those venues, anyone that plays consents to the host's play rules and meaning of terms for several reasons.  Amongst them are:
 
1.  The host is only willing to accept a certain amount of liability. 
2.  The host may not have facilities for certain types of play.
3.  The host may have a personal aversion to certain types of play.
4.  The host (and their designates in the form of DM's) must be able to recognize when there is a problem, necessitating that everyone have the same meaning for the same terms.

John



ownedgirlie -> RE: What are words for? (11/16/2007 1:06:13 PM)

Jasmyn, I enjoyed your very well spelled out post, thank you.  I'd have quoted the whole thing but did not, due to length, but you got me thinking a little.

Actually this whole thread, even with it's "roadkill" (haha) got my mind working, which is always a good thing :)  I can understand more clearly both sides of the "safeword" equation, and although such a tool does not exist in my slavery to my Master, my understanding of why they exist in other dynamics has been more broadened.  So thank you to those who clearly represented your points of view.

Your post made me consider just how many dominant preferences are out there, and how each dominant can structure his/her dynamic based on his/her unique preferences.

In your case, vomiting and passing out would interrupt YOUR pleasure.  That's what I gathered as most important to your "Mistress Jack" instruction.  Your instruction, your choice as to what to do when it is vocalized.  In my case, it is not all that uncommon for me to vomit or pass out, or to feel totally emotionally overwhelmed that I become quite frightened. It is my Master's choice to work me through this by pushing me through it, and training me to continue in my headspace past the fear, past the gross bodily voidings, and into nevah nevah land :)  This is because my extreme reactions to what he does, does not deter from his pleasure, in fact, it adds to it.

Please understand, I am not implying there is anything "wrong" (for lack of a better word) with your way - how could there be, when it is your personal preference, after all?  I'm seeing that yours is an example that the tool of a "safe word" still keeps you in control of the situation, and I found it quite enlightening.

Juliaoceania also brings up a good point regarding her masochistic explorations.  In a situation where clearly the submissive trusts the dominant to manage the "scene" (I still hate that word, lol), he is also trusting her to open herself up enough to push past her own fears and perceived limitations.  In other words, I think if I had had a safeword with Master in the beginning, I'd have used it whenever I reached my frightened stage or my "ok this hurts more than I want it to" stage, instead of learning to push beyond that and experience immeasurable personal growth.    But Sinergy and Juliaoceania seem to share physical extremeties that could become seriously dangerous, and he chooses to employ her sense of self as one of his tools when conducting her. 

This is not something I have personally experienced, because the extreme edges my Master takes me to are more mental and emotional (fear, scat, energy sapping, etc.).  Because I have become so transparent to him, he knows just how far my emotional limits he can push, and so he chooses not to employ my sense of self as a tool, because I typically lose all sense of self when we reach this point, particularly when I break past the fear.  In other words, it's easier for him to read when my mind is about to crack, as opposed to when my spleen is :)

Anyway, it's been an interesting discussion.  I thought the "command" comments were fascinating, because I interpreted them in a computer programming sense, like an "If/Then" statement.  But then if that's the case with humans, everything we do is a command, because then we're talking about the laws of cause and effect.

Like slavegirljoy, I recognize that safewords can have various meanings in various dynamics, but that they have no meaning in mine.  Thanks to all of you who stated your opinions so clearly.  Whether or not they were fully or partially agreed on, they enlightened me further, and I love that.



TenderMistress -> RE: Safe words (11/16/2007 1:28:56 PM)

I don't generally believe in safe words myself, because I feel that it's a Dom/mes responsibility to be observant and able to know that their submissive is ok. And if they're in doubt, to find out! Not to mention, there are times when someone saying a safe word or using a signal is well... a little difficult. But that's besides the point.

When safe words are used, it's always a word or a phrase that would otherwise never be said by the participant. Maybe something in another language, or a word that really has no meaning but what it personally represents for the users. This helps to prevent any confusion in any playing, especially if it's roleplaying, that's going on. It also stands out from anything else that is being said, or in some cases, screamed.



MadRabbit -> RE: What are words for? (11/16/2007 1:56:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

My hang up, isn't with the codeword, mind you, or 'Help I'm in danger.'  My hang up, is that I expect to retain authority over whether danger actually exists or not.  Ironically, I usually err on the side of caution in the first place.



How does the abscense of a codeword improve your authority over whether danger actually exists or not?







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