RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ?

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RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/12/2007 9:34:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Perhaps it is more an issue of the OP thinking "everything in its place is the proper way" rather than making serious judgment calls?

I think it was very much a case of an individual being used to a very structured environment where everything has its place and then upon encountering an environment where things are very much free form asking a question directed towards the very sort of group she would normally look to for guidance on such things. I never had the impression she was making any judgement calls at all, just seeking to understand, and her response to my post reinforces that impression.

So much else in this thread seems to me an unfortunate chain of reactions, one leading to another and increasing levels of disrespect and hostility.

What we have here is... failure... to communicate. More's the pity.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/12/2007 9:34:48 PM

Posts: 3788
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From: KC area Missouri
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You are too kind

_____________________________

Sarah2
Deviant Mind
Wild Side Readers KCSass

(in reply to kc692)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/12/2007 9:38:56 PM

Posts: 65
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Rover Sir ... i am sorry that i missed Your post to me intially and only just saw it moments ago. i will try again to answer at least some of Your questions Sir ...

quote:

No offense intended, but your initial post belies your experience level. It is overly reliant upon respect, and perceived disrespect... something that is most commonly found in online communities though, in truth, it is not unheard of in certain high protocol groups as well. Still, your experience level would not seem to imply that you would be (seemingly) unfamiliar with the less stringent protocol most often found in real time groups (ie: your protocol expectations are inconsistent with much real time experience).

Sir no offense was taken though ... i am not sure what the point was of attempting to state my -credentials- when they are obviously unverifiable on the net and thus ... going to be suspect if You wish them to be ... simply by the nature of the beast Sir. My first Master and my most former Master were both of high protocol mindset with my first Master being part of a very exclusive(private) M/s group where we lived on the west coast. The protocol there was indeed very strict Sir as were the circles that my most former Master traveled in Sir.

In fact i am familiar with the less stringent rules that apply to local communities and because of my own loves and preferences ... i do not frequent those groups Sir. It's not that issue was such a surprise to me Sir ... as i have seen it and discussed it with others frequently in the last few years Sir ... it's that i wanted to know what the Masters here thought of the situation if they have indeed, any thoughts on it at all. i thought that my questions were pretty simple and forthright ... whether i had a day's experience or not ... though i do understand the interest in someone's background.

It's obviously lax or no protocol inspite of what the board description reads or in addition to it ... however one reads it ... and i was curious if Masters here felt that it was symptomatic of the way the -community- has moved in recent years. Thanks in LARGE part in my opinion to the new broad range of access that the internet has opened up. Before the internet ... in MOST circles things were very much more formal ... or at least in the ones that i participated in Sir. Now things are very much different ... and as i have several different ideas in my mind as to why ... i wanted to posit some of them to this community Sir, specifically the Masters.

As my Master has posted here and His profile is available to message Him with questions ... i will not attempt to answer any of Yours for Him Sir ... i quoted Him previously at His direction but His intentions changed and therefore i am not comfortable attempting to speak for Him regarding His experience level. As i did indicate earlier ... He has been around cm since 2003 and in the circles He used to frequent ... He is well known. However ... it is for Him to elaborate on and not myself Sir.

Again ... i hope that i have answered Your questions to Your satisfaction and if i have failed ... i do offer You my humblest apologies Sir. Thank You for Your time Sir!

~saki
Property of Master D.

< Message edited by sakidorei -- 11/12/2007 9:39:46 PM >

(in reply to Rover)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/12/2007 9:39:05 PM

kc692

Posts: 3701
Joined: 3/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: kc692
I'll definitely agree with that, smiles.
edited to add: Well, except that it was not an issue for the men to go on the other boards, that was not the concern..

**goes off to find that dead horse icon**

LOL I'm TRYING to be helpful and open minded here.

Grinz, me too, and it aint easy this time o night!!!!!

**thinks in actuality it's kinda ironic that she has posted to this thread probably more times than her otherwise cumulative total on the "Ask a Master" threads.**

_____________________________

Anyone can overpower; not many can INSPIRE.....

This is only MY opinion. If it's not yours, let's agree in advance to agree to disagree, OR, you can just get the fuck over what I had to say:)

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/12/2007 9:41:51 PM

kc692

Posts: 3701
Joined: 3/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetSarijane

You are too kind

Hey, don't hold your breath, it's not like I truly know any of em, but will remember to bring it up if I do meet em, lol.

_____________________________

Anyone can overpower; not many can INSPIRE.....

This is only MY opinion. If it's not yours, let's agree in advance to agree to disagree, OR, you can just get the fuck over what I had to say:)

(in reply to SweetSarijane)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/12/2007 9:52:54 PM

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Joined: 9/2/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Perhaps it is more an issue of the OP thinking "everything in its place is the proper way" rather than making serious judgment calls?

I think it was very much a case of an individual being used to a very structured environment where everything has its place and then upon encountering an environment where things are very much free form asking a question directed towards the very sort of group she would normally look to for guidance on such things. I never had the impression she was making any judgement calls at all, just seeking to understand, and her response to my post reinforces that impression.

So much else in this thread seems to me an unfortunate chain of reactions, one leading to another and increasing levels of disrespect and hostility.

What we have here is... failure... to communicate. More's the pity.

Well it was kind of lame...

(in reply to Padriag)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/12/2007 10:28:12 PM

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quote:

and i was curious if Masters here felt that it was symptomatic of the way the -community- has moved in recent years. Thanks in LARGE part in my opinion to the new broad range of access that the internet has opened up. Before the internet ... in MOST circles things were very much more formal ... or at least in the ones that i participated in Sir.

Uh, when exactly do you think the internet came into being? Since you claim a decade of experience, the internet was full of perverts then, chatrooms, all the same crap as today.

It is upstarts like you that are ruining BDSM, when I began BDSM, our training was initiated in the womb and intensified after birth...

(in reply to sakidorei)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/12/2007 10:36:37 PM

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quote:

Do you think it's another clear indicator of our -community- that Masters are either consciously or unconciously being disregarded as Dominant voices and leaders in M/s, just as we see such a concentrated emmasculation of our men in American society?"

Why does a homosexual master like yourself care about women emasculating men? Old Guard masters like yourself love sucking cock and getting fucked in the ass and to me, doing what you want, whatever that is should be empowering.

I fuck women and I don't feel emasculated so the question becomes, why do you feel so emasculated?

(in reply to Daeldaus)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/13/2007 3:32:32 AM

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Simply Michael, Sir, i am well aware of when the internet came into being and what it was like online over 10 years ago. The internet was a very different place then Sir and the availablity and prevalence of material has changed considerably in the last 10 years Sir ... and keeps changing all of the time. Sure there were kinky things available then ... chatrooms and websites but nothing like there is today. Ten plus years ago there were a lot fewer computers in people's homes ... and of course technology has changed considerably.

i didn't mean literally BEFORE the inception of the internet ... i just mean that 10 years ago online, you couldn't really find people who claimed to have been in the lifestyle for ten years who discovered it online ... knowledge and real life credibility has changed considerably the longer access to so much information has been available online, if that makes sense Sir. The internet HAS changed the face of BDSM in many ways.

Ten years ago if you walked into a kink group and referenced something that happened 10 years earlier there was a much higher chance that you didn't get the information off of your computer but from some other real life source. Now, if someone were really of the mind to ... they could fabricate a complex and detailed history of experience for themselves with supporting facts all gleaned from internet articles without EVER having left their house or actually interacted in the least with a single person real time in the lifestyle.

At this point if You don't follow what i am saying ... it's unlikely that i can explain it to You. We see tons of people who claim a myriad of experiences every day who aren't truthful about them or who exaggerate enormously. i certainly can't MAKE You believe me Sir. ~smiles~

As to the assumption that my Master is gay or has been gay or is bi ... respectfully Sir, that is incorrect. While the Old Guard He refers to has it's roots in the Old Guard leather community which was predominantly gay there are many people who identify themselves as Old Guard who are very heterosexual Sir. The entire concept of Old Guard verses New Guard is very controversial Sir and of course, as many things in our community ... depends upon Your own beliefs and convictions as to it's historical emergence or what it entails.

The Old Guard my Master speaks of is from a heterosexual experience and focuses primarily on concepts of Honor, Integrity, Obedience, Duty, and Respect. These principles were taken directly from the strict protocol and tradtions of the Old Guard Leather Community and applied to heterosexual BDSM just as it was applied to the Gay Old Guard Leather Community Sir. As i stated, the entire concept is controversial with varying beliefs among BDSM historians about it's origins.

i guess if my questions have degenerated to this point ... which in and of themselves seemed fair (fair as in ... the points i raised were true .... true as in, there is a designation for this board ... it is not strictly followed) ... with or without my resume ... it would interesting for everyone else to post theirs too if Ours is so vital to our credibility.

Having many posts on a message board, regardless of the content does not give any more true credibility than any other claims to experience it just means you've been HERE a couple of years ... maybe less ... maybe more and people are more accustomed to hearing your -voice- (your meaning general not specific to one poster). Message board time in service with related but unverifiable experiences offered might SEEM to give credibility but in truth ... they are worth about as much as anything else. They are what they are ... taken with a LARGE grain of salt ... or three.

i am honestly not sure that my questions were of such a specialized nature that my credentials matter a whole lot. Be that as it may ... i've offered them Sir. You are certainly free to take them at face value or not ... as You wish. i do wonder if everyone who has ever asked an unpopular question has had to bring references to the party ... especially when the questions were of such an elementary nature.

~saki
Property of Master D.

< Message edited by sakidorei -- 11/13/2007 3:33:06 AM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/13/2007 3:52:38 AM

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I decided to think a few hours before I answered this one.

Honestly? If the question gets answered, no harm, no foul.

If a sub has the stones to step up and speak for a Dom, let 'em.

As for online protocol? You can influence it a little, but there's no real way to enforce it. I'd rather focus on things that I have personal control over, rather than things I can't. The delegation of energy should go where it can do the most good (or damage).

_____________________________

Thou art fertile ground and I will plant a garden in thee.

(in reply to sakidorei)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/13/2007 3:54:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sakidorei
the points i raised were true .... true as in, there is a designation for this board ... it is not strictly followed

There is a difference between a section that is set up to ask masters/dominants questions and a section set up for masters/dominants only. This is not a masters only section. It is only designed to give an area to ask questions that are more geared towards masters.

Moderators have said more than once, that anyone can post anywhere they want as long as they do not violate TOS.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to sakidorei)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/13/2007 5:25:26 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sakidorei

Sir no offense was taken though ... i am not sure what the point was of attempting to state my -credentials- when they are obviously unverifiable on the net and thus ... going to be suspect if You wish them to be ... simply by the nature of the beast Sir.

As I said, the purpose was to understand your point of view in order to put the questions into context. And it is not the internet that causes them to be "suspect" (your term, not mine), it's the fact that your experience level is inconsistent with someone who is overly concerned with respect and disrespect, seemingly surprised by the (much) more common protocol in use real time (even if you yourself prefer high protocol), reminiscing about a bygone era in which men were men and BDSM was more manly, etc. Those are sentiments most often found online, though in all honesty, not exclusively so.

quote:

i thought that my questions were pretty simple and forthright ... whether i had a day's experience or not ... though i do understand the interest in someone's background.

Though my reply to someone without a day's experience would be different. In reply to someone like yourself with extensive experience, I would state that your questions are indicative of someone who has already come to a conclusion, and that they are less questions than thinly veiled lectures. You say that you've discussed this extensively within your real time friends and groups, and nothing you find from anonymous strangers on the internet will have more value for you than the perspective of the company you intend to keep (ie: with your experience you already know what others outside of your group think and reject it).

quote:

It's obviously lax or no protocol inspite of what the board description reads or in addition to it ... however one reads it ... and i was curious if Masters here felt that it was symptomatic of the way the -community- has moved in recent years.

And how is it that in your relative isolation in high protocol groups you've managed to assess where the "community" was, and where it has moved? Are you talking about your local community? Regional community? The community on a national level? I've been attending events, munches, etc. from NY to CA, and from Canada to FL, for quite a while now and what you've noticed has escaped my detection.

quote:

Thanks in LARGE part in my opinion to the new broad range of access that the internet has opened up. Before the internet ... in MOST circles things were very much more formal ... or at least in the ones that i participated in Sir.

Now there is a significant difference between the meaning of "most circles" and "those [you] have participated in". You have already admitted to relative isolation in high protocol groups, so perhaps the changes you've noticed exist in those specific high protocol groups (meaning these questions are best asked in those groups). Frankly, I haven't been able to detect any of the changes you've observed in "most circles". Or even a few circles.

But I do occasionally hear people complain about these supposed changes when their fantasy about the lifestyle isn't matched by its reality. Or when well meaning people believe someone else's fantasy when told them as if it were factual.

quote:

Now things are very much different ... and as i have several different ideas in my mind as to why ... i wanted to posit some of them to this community Sir, specifically the Masters.

And you have some replies that you hadn't bargained for, or agree with. That's the nature of questions asked and answered in public forums.

quote:

As my Master has posted here and His profile is available to message Him with questions ... i will not attempt to answer any of Yours for Him Sir ... i quoted Him previously at His direction but His intentions changed and therefore i am not comfortable attempting to speak for Him regarding His experience level. As i did indicate earlier ... He has been around cm since 2003 and in the circles He used to frequent ... He is well known. However ... it is for Him to elaborate on and not myself Sir.

I can understand and appreciate that you'd want him to speak for himself, and frankly I'd appreciate that if I were in his shoes. Since he's posting to this thread, I'm sure he's reading along and will indulge us with a few answers to what are now some lingering questions.

quote:

Again ... i hope that i have answered Your questions to Your satisfaction and if i have failed ... i do offer You my humblest apologies Sir. Thank You for Your time Sir!

~saki
Property of Master D.

You've done as well as anyone could expect, saki. Thank you for taking the time to do so.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to sakidorei)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/13/2007 6:08:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sakidorei

~sighs~ i had not planned to respond to the Ladies on this thread because i had deliberately asked my questions of the Masters. i asked them because i DO believe that in large part society has largely emasculated men ... just read popular mags like Cosmo and what they have to say about getting what you want from a Man or using Him ... or how He has to be soft and gentle and tender and deferential all the time ... in this respect i suppose i have a rather Gorean bent to me as i see these things as undermining the strength of men.

I suggest you do some research. Most of those magazines either make their stories up or deliberatly find men who will say what they want them to say. Now, if being tender weakens a man I don't think he was strong in the first place.
A strong man can control and show love.

In my humble opinion of course.

quote:

i don't intend for that to be a slur on Dommes as i have met a few that i really enjoyed and respected ... i do mean that more of a very personal feeling about natural roles and how i see them.

i didn't post here to explain or defend myself as i said because my questions were posted to a specific audience (Masters) asking for a specific opinion on THEIR feelings. i was not interested in what switches, subs and Dommes thought about the issue because that wasn't what i was wondering about or thinking about or even askng about. i don't mean that disrespectfully ... but it's a bit like someone asking a question about floggers and everyone else saying ... "well what about whips and chains too!!!???!!! you need to know about them as well!" i picked the audience that i wanted because they possess the perspective i was interested in.

All right. You are interested in the dominant male perspective. Valyraen doesn't get on the boards much and, this being the case, I am authorized to provide his opinion and insights. By ignoring my post and my comment that no, Valyraen does not care about where submissives and slaves post you ignored the opinion on an owner.

Perhaps you do not consider it valid because it was presented through my words and on my name, but it is his opinion and that is, supposedly, of interest to you. I do not think that my posting of his opinion, which I double-checked to make sure and he even read the post before I sent it, is like talking about chains when you asked about whips.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to sakidorei)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/13/2007 7:22:08 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sakidorei

i didn't mean literally BEFORE the inception of the internet ... i just mean that 10 years ago online, you couldn't really find people who claimed to have been in the lifestyle for ten years who discovered it online

Seriously, what stopped them then, or now? There are plenty of people who discover BDSM online and after a week or so claim to have ten plus years in the lifestyle. Then and now.

quote:

... knowledge and real life credibility has changed considerably the longer access to so much information has been available online, if that makes sense Sir. The internet HAS changed the face of BDSM in many ways.

Please keep that sentiment in mind as you read further.

quote:

Ten years ago if you walked into a kink group and referenced something that happened 10 years earlier there was a much higher chance that you didn't get the information off of your computer but from some other real life source. Now, if someone were really of the mind to ... they could fabricate a complex and detailed history of experience for themselves with supporting facts all gleaned from internet articles without EVER having left their house or actually interacted in the least with a single person real time in the lifestyle.

There are plenty of people who invent fictional BDSM history, as well as fictional personal biographies. Again, please keep that sentiment in mind as you read further.

quote:

We see tons of people who claim a myriad of experiences every day who aren't truthful about them or who exaggerate enormously.

Agreed. Please keep that sentiment in mind as you read further.

quote:

As to the assumption that my Master is gay or has been gay or is bi ... respectfully Sir, that is incorrect. While the Old Guard He refers to has it's roots in the Old Guard leather community which was predominantly gay there are many people who identify themselves as Old Guard who are very heterosexual Sir. The entire concept of Old Guard verses New Guard is very controversial Sir and of course, as many things in our community ... depends upon Your own beliefs and convictions as to it's historical emergence or what it entails.

I was surprised to see you explaining further about your Master's "Old Guard" views since in your post to me you preferred to have him answer for himself. And while I'd still enjoy having him speak for himself, I also wanted to respond here (dang those public forums).

Are you aware that "Old Guard" is a derogatory term stemming from an insult to those whose time had passed (ie: they were being called dinosaurs)? It has only been the advent of the internet and its resultant mythology and imagination that has rehabilitated the term "Old Guard" and infused it with meaning that has no historical basis or foundation. You see, documented factual history is not predicated upon one's beliefs and convictions... it is what it is, regardless of your belief system. And in the case of the "Old Guard" (a reference to a people in time, much like "medieval" or "prehistoric") the people and era are well documented.

What were the distinguishing characteristics of the people we now refer to as "Old Guard"?

1. They were gay men. (evidently your Master is not gay)

2. They were a meritocracy in which members entered as bottoms and worked their way up to experienced bottoms or Tops. (evidently your Master did not serve as a bottom)

3. They shared a military background. (evidently your Master does have military experience)

4. They were exceptionally exclusive, rather than inclusive. (evidently your Master is inclusive of others)

5. They retained a rigid heirarchy and passion for appearance, though that appearance differed from group to group. (it's unknown whether your Master does or doesn't)

I don't know your Master and could be way off base. But from what little information you (and he) have shared, it sounds as though he has quite a bit more in common with the "New Guard" than the "Old Guard". But then, the fictional history associated with the "Old Guard" is so much more kewl.

You may want to consider the following information sources for documented factual history related to the "Old Guard":

1. The Leather Archives & Museum: 6418 N. Greenview Avenue Chicago, IL 60626 Phone: 773-761-9200

http://www.leatherarchives.org/

2. "Old Guard, New Guard" by Gayle Rubin:

http://www.black-rose.com/cuiru/archive/4-2/oldguard.html

3. "Old Guard? If You Say So" by Joseph Bean:

http://www.iron-rose.com/IR/docs/old_guard.htm

4. "The Myth of the Old Guard" by Jack Rinella:

http://www.leatherviews.com/kinkyinfo/9930.htm

5. "The Old Guard: The History of Leather Traditions" by Guy Baldwin:

http://www.albanypowerexchange.com/History/old_guard1.htm

6. "Retrospective on the Old Guard" by KJ Howe:

http://www.bdsmdebunkingthemyths.com/RetrospectiveOldGuard.htm

quote:

The Old Guard my Master speaks of is from a heterosexual experience and focuses primarily on concepts of Honor, Integrity, Obedience, Duty, and Respect. These principles were taken directly from the strict protocol and tradtions of the Old Guard Leather Community and applied to heterosexual BDSM just as it was applied to the Gay Old Guard Leather Community Sir.

At great risk of appearing to be disrespectful, where are these "Old Guard" principles and traditions found? What historical documentation is there for their existence? I'm only aware of the general principles I listed above, and anything more specific has been the creation of online fabrications and imaginations.

quote:

As i stated, the entire concept is controversial with varying beliefs among BDSM historians about it's origins.

Actually, I'm not aware of any varying beliefs amongst BDSM historians. I've provided you with a list of historians and what they have to say about "Old Guard", its origins and practices. I'm always interested in learning more... so please provide a few articles (and links) from BDSM historians who disagree with that view. I would find that fascinating reading.

What is controversial is the creation of fictional histories, whether they be personal or for the entire lifestyle.

quote:

i guess if my questions have degenerated to this point ... which in and of themselves seemed fair (fair as in ... the points i raised were true .... true as in, there is a designation for this board ... it is not strictly followed) ... with or without my resume ... it would interesting for everyone else to post theirs too if Ours is so vital to our credibility.

I would ask the same of anyone making claims that stretch the bounds of believabiltiy (and have done so repeatedly in this forum and others). There's no problem claiming to be an average Joe (or Josephine) with an opinion. But when you claim to be *somebody* and nobody knows you, or claim to be *special* in ways that contradict known and verifiable facts, well... it raises a natural curiosity in people. Inquiring minds want to know.

quote:

Having many posts on a message board, regardless of the content does not give any more true credibility than any other claims to experience it just means you've been HERE a couple of years ... maybe less ... maybe more and people are more accustomed to hearing your -voice- (your meaning general not specific to one poster). Message board time in service with related but unverifiable experiences offered might SEEM to give credibility but in truth ... they are worth about as much as anything else. They are what they are ... taken with a LARGE grain of salt ... or three.

I'm pleased that you think that way, since you can understand why much of what has been said and claimed seems rather salty from my perspective.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to sakidorei)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/13/2007 7:29:48 AM

Posts: 65
Status: offline

Rover Sir ... again thank You for the time You took with Your reply to my message. Just because i don't choose to MOVE in those circles msyelf does not mean that i am incapable of having perceptions from talking to others about what they see and hear. i am reasonably well read and a decent conversationalist and conversations of this nature are common enough with my friends who are in the lifestyle ... some of who stick to high protocol or even their own independent philosophies and some who regularly attend functions within their local community.

My entire motivation in asking my questions IS to learn more about other people's perceptions not necessarily to change my mind or not ... but if one only converses with those of a like mind ... one will get a rather one sided view of things. By asking the questions of an entirely different group outside of my -normal- circle, i am seeking to get a broader view of other's perceptions which of course may color or potentially change my own opinions. One can not live in a box and expect to learn new things. Challenges to my own conclusions or hypotheses don't bother me ... they are exactly that ... challenges that i need to then wrestle with, to come to my own conclusions Sir.

Most of my friends who are in the lifestyle have been for a number of years ... some bemoan the state of things today ... some see it as positive change ... some see no change ... some don't care. Most all agree with me (those that i know) ... it's much more common to find folks who are newer to the scene (in their words ... less than 5-7 years) than it is to find those who have been around a long time. Sure many people can point to groups of well knowns who have been in the lifestyle for years and years ... however that is not always the case and it hasn't been in my experience. i realize that there have always been positive and negative experiences and influences within each local or state community and that there are as many opinions as there are participants with opinions about the -state- of things today.

My experiences obviously don't mirror Yours Sir ... i don't question Your own ... only ask questions based on my own ... and hope for some enlightenment based on how others view things. i do thank You once again for sharing Your thoughts and questions ... i appreciate Your perspective and experiences Sir.

Valyraen Sir. thank You for conveying Your feelings on my questions Sir. i appreciate the time You took to share Your convictions.

~saki
Property of Master D.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/13/2007 7:41:22 AM

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Rover Sir ... i am in fact aware of the derogatory nature that is associated with term Old Guard including a great deal of elitism and other facets that are not considered with high regard today. And honestly Sir ... as You have indicated by Your choice of links ... it's not likely anything that i can say at this point forward is going to do anything to alter Your perception of me, my experiences nor my Master's.

i have not done extensive research on Old Guard Sir though i am aware of the general history and the varying views that people have on it. Just because someone is published online with "first hand" information does not necessarily make it so ... we see false things published on line all the time. i have read some of the resources that You've offered and some that You didn't offer ... the details do vary from folk legend to "first hand accounts" to a mass of things in between. There is some information online regarding Janus and the heterosexual folks who moved in those cicles though i am unsure if that is what You are looking for in asking me to prove my point. i could cite a Master who is 70 years old and has mentored a select few ... but He isn't published online therefore He is unlikely to meet Your criteria.

i do not know if my Master will choose to respond further or not ... He may choose to provide You with more information on His background and history or at least ... what He is comfortable with sharing. i am not comforting sharing more of a history that i haven't had myself Sir. i have shared with You mine in the most honest way that i could.

Should You decide (and You seem to have) that You find me not credible or questionable, respectfully Sir that is entirely Your right and while i regret that assessment, short of sitting down with You over coffee or introducing You to many people in my life ... there is likely no way in this world i can change that perception. It's Yours and i respect it. i don't claim to be special or or somebody or even in any way unique Sir. i am just me and i can only answer You to the best of my ability and with as much respect as possible which i have done. i have not led a "glamourous" D/s or M/s life and i don't claim to have. i do appreciate Your time and Your indulging me time to answer Your questions.

~saki
Property of Master D.

< Message edited by sakidorei -- 11/13/2007 8:01:07 AM >

(in reply to sakidorei)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/13/2007 7:52:01 AM

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

The Internet is a world where protocol is determined by the ability to use the shift key and cap your name. I find the thought of protocol here, rather silly. I am happy with manners and common courtesy, regardless of roll.

Jeff

(in reply to Dnomyar)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/13/2007 8:26:04 AM

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Yeah, those leather archives are full of fakes and poseurs....Guy Baldwin, Jack Rinnela, etc...yep all just made up bullshit unlike your secret sources.

Got to love people who are full of shit whining and bitching about someone else being full of shit.

As for me lady, unlike you, there are people here who CAN vouch for my history and experience in the real world, a couple of whom are currently Master/slave title holders for the West Coast and speak nationally at real world bdsm events, there are people all over the US who have met me in a BDSM context.

You are just a brand new screen name so forgive us if we laugh in your general direction.

(in reply to Jeffff)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/13/2007 8:28:14 AM

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

The Old Guard my Master speaks of is from a heterosexual experience and focuses primarily on concepts of Honor, Integrity, Obedience, Duty, and Respect. These principles were taken directly from the strict protocol and tradtions of the Old Guard Leather Community and applied to heterosexual BDSM just as it was applied to the Gay Old Guard Leather Community Sir. As i stated, the entire concept is controversial with varying beliefs among BDSM historians about it's origins.

i guess if my questions have degenerated to this point ... which in and of themselves seemed fair (fair as in ... the points i raised were true .... true as in, there is a designation for this board ... it is not strictly followed) ... with or without my resume ... it would interesting for everyone else to post theirs too if Ours is so vital to our credibility.

I believe you answered your own question in the context of this reply. The term "old Guard" is highly controversial, exclusive, and most people that have been involved with BDSM for long periods of time do not follow any sort of high protocol. This site is for kinky people into power exchange, so why anyone would insist that we follow some sort of protocol, when the vast majority of the people that belong to this site do not, seems a little odd.

quote:

Having many posts on a message board, regardless of the content does not give any more true credibility than any other claims to experience it just means you've been HERE a couple of years ... maybe less ... maybe more and people are more accustomed to hearing your -voice- (your meaning general not specific to one poster). Message board time in service with related but unverifiable experiences offered might SEEM to give credibility but in truth ... they are worth about as much as anything else. They are what they are ... taken with a LARGE grain of salt ... or three.

The individuals that asked you what your real life experience is are not people that are into any high protocol, but seem to have a lot of experience from everything I have read of them. I do not have oodles of "credibility", I belong to no groups, I just like it when my partner tells me what to do in and out of bed and I am happy when he chooses to use me for his pleasure.. it is fun! I am smart enough to seperate the wheat from the chaffe though, and tell when someone is full of crap as to how much they have done a thing.

There is nothing wrong with being "Old Guard", it satisfies people, go them! I think the problem comes in when we measure how real or true or credible people are based upon what you even admit is a shaky history that has a controversial and less than credible ring to it. There is really only one expert on this board when it comes to the BDSM community history that has a lot of credibility to me, and that is John Warren, and in some posts I have seen him eat people claiming some Old Guard tradition for lunch.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to sakidorei)

RE: Masters ... does it bother You ... ? - 11/13/2007 8:37:50 AM

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

~fr~
Please don't say you are "Old Guard" if you aren't. Or if you don't know what "Old Guard" actually means. To do so makes you look silly. And we will follow the strict protocol of laughing (at you).

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to juliaoceania)

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