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would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 1:55:10 AM

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In the old guard you earned the title of "Master" by serving as a 24/7 slave for a year. I am sure they didn't like it but they paid their dues by doing it and earned the right to rule.

I t makes complete sense to me. I think some Masters could really use bottoming/submissive experience just for sensitivy training and understanding more the perspective of those beneath them.

Of course the one Master I ever suggested it to is never talking to me again.

So Masters I am asking you. Would you ever consider bottoming? Not because you'd enjoy it but because it would make you a better dom?

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RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 2:38:49 AM

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Where did you hear that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: shootingstar67

In the old guard you earned the title of "Master" by serving as a 24/7 slave for a year.

(in reply to shootingstar67)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 3:31:49 AM

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From: Adelaide, Australia
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No.

I realize that this is a popular belief, Doms who have subbed have a "better" outlook on how to treat their slaves.
I repeat again: No.

It sounds good. It sounds right. Until (or if, in somecases) you think about it.

quote:

In the old guard you earned the title of "Master" by serving as a 24/7 slave for a year. I am sure they didn't like it but they paid their dues by doing it and earned the right to rule.

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me. Perhaps I should suggest all Slaves serve as Masters for a year so that they can understand how to be more pleasing? Perhaps we should just all blend our personalities, our strengths, weaknesses into one pool of mandatory equality, where to be better than someone else is to be shunned by the rest?

quote:

I think some Masters could really use bottoming/submissive experience just for sensitivy training and understanding more the perspective of those beneath them.

You want Masters to be more sensitive? Or your Master? Perhaps you should try talking with him, or perhaps you should be looking for a different form of relationship.
As for understanding the perspective of those beneath them (I would disagree with that aswell, I do not view Men, or Dominants as a whole to be superior or inferior to Women or Slaves.) one could argue that Doctors should inflict injuries on themselves so they know how their patients feel.

I do not think I can express my feelings towards this matter any clearer than my first two letters: No.

Not now, or ever.

_____________________________

Knowing others is intelligence.
Knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength.
Mastering yourself is true power.

-Tao Te Ching

(in reply to shootingstar67)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 3:53:40 AM

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someone has been reading A.N. Roquelaire books ( Anne Rice )

(in reply to Qithoras)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 4:11:05 AM

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From: Adelaide, Australia
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Anne Rice? Read one of her books back in High School, but I thought it was overrated.

Why do you say that?

_____________________________

Knowing others is intelligence.
Knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength.
Mastering yourself is true power.

-Tao Te Ching

(in reply to mefisto69)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 4:11:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shootingstar67

In the old guard you earned the title of "Master" by serving as a 24/7 slave for a year. I am sure they didn't like it but they paid their dues by doing it and earned the right to rule.

However good the 'old guard' were, (or were not), that style is not the holy grail of BDSM relationships. I would like to talk to an actual member of the old guard, (yes I know), and just learn about the realities of their lifestyle.

quote:

I t makes complete sense to me. I think some Masters could really use bottoming/submissive experience just for sensitivy training and understanding more the perspective of those beneath them.

Undoubtedly, some do benefit from the experience, however it's not guarenteed at all and I think that the majority of dominants would not benefit from it. A submissive is very likely to have a very different experience from someone who is not submissive. Ergo, a dominant person is unlikely to learn very much from pretending to be submissive.

quote:

Of course the one Master I ever suggested it to is never talking to me again.

So Masters I am asking you. Would you ever consider bottoming? Not because you'd enjoy it but because it would make you a better dom?

Well, if someone could convince me that it would make me a better dom, or person generally, then yes I would consider it.
However though I've read numerous posts about it and even had a face to face discussion about it, no-one has ever been able to present a logical argument in favour of it.

In fact mostly the argument seems to be dependant on a number of facts being ignored!

To my mind, it's much akin to saying that most men would benefit from experiencing life, love and sex as a woman. (and maybe most women as men). Now that is something I love to be able to do!
However, although I could have my body changed to resemble that of a woman, inside I'd still be a man, so I wouldn't actually 'feel' what a woman does. Exactly the same with a dominant as a sub, although they might do the same things, they would experience them as a dominant and NOT as a sub.

I find that talking to my partners and other men and women, does a far better job.

(in reply to shootingstar67)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 6:22:13 AM

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Another misconception about Old Guard, Try reading Leatherfolk and get a little better nderstanding that not everyone did the bottom up as a slave, there were even then 1950's and 60's folks who apprenticed under various Masters to learn their craft but were not slaves before they became Masters. It was a path that many took and some localized communities did require time as a slave, but to ever think that Old Guard was a monolithic structure of any values, traditions or methods, is to ignore some very important facts. The community in NYC was different than the community in LA which was different than the community in SF, which was different than the community in Chicago.

Sounds like you need a trip to LA'AM (Located in Chicago, Serving the World) Leather Archives and Museum.
Or even maybe a little more reading of Books rather than internet websites.

(in reply to Jayxkes)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 6:22:50 AM

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Shootingstar,

Are you going to try topping for a while so you can be a better submissive?

(in reply to shootingstar67)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 6:32:30 AM

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I tired it breifly in the beginning-I hated it-totally.

Niehter my physical wiring or disposition made it at all pleasant for me. Some people just don't have a sub side.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 6:39:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Shootingstar,

Are you going to try topping for a while so you can be a better submissive?

This, to me, is the best counter argument against having dominants "train" as submissives first.

If anything, I think making a dom be an unhappy sub simply creates disillusion and disinterest in the lifestyle. Personally, I think I'd find it much harder to find my dominant mindspace if I had even seriously considered bottoming.

_____________________________

Spanking with a smile, living with feeling.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 6:40:25 AM

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quote:

So Masters I am asking you. Would you ever consider bottoming? Not because you'd enjoy it but because it would make you a better dom?

I cannot imagine that this would make my Daddy a better dominant. Why would doing something he did not enjoy add to our dynamic?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to shootingstar67)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 6:46:56 AM

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quote:

Doms who have subbed have a "better" outlook on how to treat their slaves.
I repeat again: No.

Yet another keeper of the 'The One Twue Domly Way'

Getting crowded around here.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 7:45:44 AM

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When a Top bottoms to someone else, there is a great opportunity for him/her to learn more about their own personal limits and capacity for S/M. However, I believe this does not make for a better Dom. For example, if a Top can take 10 strokes of a cane without warmup, he will have to overcome his own pre-conceived notions about how anyone else will react to similar play. Everyone processes it differently.

Instead, a good Top will develop their skill at communicating and reading each bottom as an individual. I think a novice Top would be better off being mentored by another more experienced Top, rather than submitting to play.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 8:14:59 AM

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When someone else claims that bottoming gives them a better understanding of what they are doing, your claim that they are wrong portrays you as saying that your way is the only 'twue' way.

Feel free to believe that, just be prepared to ignore a lot of ridicule.

(in reply to MasterLehr1)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 8:31:39 AM

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One of my 'mentors' in the scene was as close to 'old guard' as I have encountered. He was a gay man who came of age in the fifties, and had been doing this stuff since then. At no time did he suggest that it was a requirement that I serve as a slave for any period of time. He did, however, encourage me to bottom from time to time, as a way of making my bones in the scene- this was around '86 in SF, and the scene was a bit more close-knit that we see today. It certainly seemed to be a short cut to acceptance by others, and although it was never a fufilling experiance for me, it was educational- if nothing else, I did learn that I was not a submissive...

Important things I did learn from bottoming were more what I think of as 'grace notes' than anything about technique. I learned the differance between a hand on the shoulder, a hand att the small of the back, and a hand at the neck. I learned the importance of timing, rhythm, posture and interval, how to better layer sensation or isolate it, the differance between warming up and blasting them through the wall. I learned that restraint is a kindness, that a blindfold can be your friend, and thought is over rated.

For me, it certainly made me a better dominant than I would have been without it. But I don't expect everyone to do it.

As for the flip side- the best slaves I have ever had under my hand did have some experiance with dominance.

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(in reply to MasterLehr1)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 8:43:21 AM

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No

Jeff

(in reply to shootingstar67)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 9:09:08 AM

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I always thought the reason gay leathermen started as bottoms was to ensure the masters a constant supply of young, tight ass. At least that's what the gay leathermen I knew always said.

How long does it take to discover that you hate lying there all tied up? One or two times. To discover that you dislike strong sensations? Probably the first time you've been caned you knew if this was a socially redeeming activity in your book or not.

He isn't going to feel what I feel because he isn't wired that way.

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Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to Jeffff)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 9:15:29 AM

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I have bottomed very heavily. I am madly curious about what things are like and I was very envious of this whole subspace thing. I discovered that I am incapable of having any kind of endorphin related experience. (you'd think the tattoos would have taught me that) I learned that marks are the COOLEST thing ever. I learned that in the game of "quien es mas macho?" the answer is "yo!" I am not submissive, I just don't have that wiring. There are lots of play things that I enjoy, but I don't feel at all submissive if I choose to partake, nor do I process anything I enjoy as painful.

Did all that make me a better TOP? Yes, I think so. I learned many things about sensations, how they work, how to manipulate environments, and ever so much about how the minds of my various playmates worked. Did it make me a better DOMINANT? I don't think so. My life did that.

I do think that it is enhancing to try to live on the other side, if only to show just how different it can be.

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[page 23 girl]

(in reply to Jeffff)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 9:49:24 AM

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Please let's try not to do the "In Old Guard thingie." because Old Guard protocol is regionalized then individualized. But I did start as a bottom not due to Old Guard but due to that fact that I wanted to bottom to see if I could get into the mind of one who likes to bottom. While there were some sexual elements I did while bottoming that I enjoyed (like strap on play), most I didn't because I wanted to top, so I learned (and continue to learn) how to do that.

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"Flirting is part of the job description." DJ Jesus (Lucy Daughter Of The Devil)

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(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

RE: would you consider bottoming? - 11/29/2007 9:51:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I always thought the reason gay leathermen started as bottoms was to ensure the masters a constant supply of young, tight ass. At least that's what the gay leathermen I knew always said.

And it's quite possible that the gay leathermen you know did start as bottoms. Many gay leathermen I knew did as well. As much as many gay leathermen who got involved in BDSM in the late 60s early 70s who didn't bottom.

A lot of gay leathermen cruised for sex and they found bottom boys at bars, this has been misconstrued as Old Guard as well, when it was just f*cking.

Z-

_____________________________

"Flirting is part of the job description." DJ Jesus (Lucy Daughter Of The Devil)

Vanilla Official Music Page http://www.myspace.com/djzulu

(in reply to DesFIP)

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