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RE: Confused - 1/12/2008 12:57:45 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: takenbyjohnr07

i don't know if it's looked at the same way now, but in the olden days if you went to a man's house to see his etchings  It was automatically assumed that you knewwhat you were there for.


Yes. And in the olden days if you showed a little leg you weren't raped, you were asking for it. I'd like to think we know better now.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to takenbyjohnr07)
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RE: Confused - 1/12/2008 1:02:41 PM   
kc692


Posts: 3701
Joined: 3/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: takenbyjohnr07

i don't know if it's looked at the same way now, but in the olden days if you went to a man's house to see his etchings  It was automatically assumed that you knewwhat you were there for.


In the olden days, if I was going to see his etchings, I was going to see his friggin etchings.

With f**d up logic like that, I hope you didn't sit on any juries, or the lady that went in for a nightcap really meant yes when she said no, and deserved to get raped.  Oh wait, she wore something a little risque too, so she was really askin for it...............sheesh

damn, two posters beat me to all my points, lol!!!

< Message edited by kc692 -- 1/12/2008 1:04:38 PM >

_____________________________

Anyone can overpower; not many can INSPIRE.....

This is only MY opinion. If it's not yours, let's agree in advance to agree to disagree, OR, you can just get the fuck over what I had to say:)

(in reply to takenbyjohnr07)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Confused - 1/12/2008 1:20:05 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

i'm a little bit confused here about a few things, and why i'm going to bring it up here should just reinforce to some of You exactly how out there i truly am.......At what point exactly is consent given? i mean if a slave (or a sub) is talking to someone online and then goes to their house, does that equal consent? i mean does the fact that they went to the person's house mean that they've then consented for any and all activities to occur? At what point can a slave (or sub) pull back her consent?
* i have no idea if i'm making any sense here or not, and should no doubt be trying to sleep*


We met on a vanilla site (yes they do exist lol) and all I knew was to me he had a beautiful face.
He responded with a one liner because he was not a subscriber but then, some months elapsed before he sent a full profile.
The first texct he sent said what do you want to do with me but i knew somehow it would be the first time he would appear to be submissive.
We had a very powerful scene together on the first date. I tried to leave Him at least three times.
At this point each time I went over I felt I could always say no and he would respect that. He put a collar around my neck a while back and we went out for a meal together. I felt owned and wanted and up to that point when I said no he would stop and so he realised my consent was over.
He sent me a short contract of conditions of mastery by text: conditions for His role as Dominant to change to Master. My role to change from what we both understood as sub to slave.
Three times he sent it and three times I questioned the terms and chipped back.understand that I give unconditional consent within the terms of the contract.
He has said he will not release me until he says He rleleases me three times on consecutive days.
Sp now, within the confines of his terms i give my unconditional consent without limits as my limits are His. Since that point I have felt no need to say no.


< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 1/12/2008 1:22:40 PM >

(in reply to Kalista07)
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RE: Confused - 1/12/2008 4:12:51 PM   
Kalista07


Posts: 4240
Joined: 7/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: takenbyjohnr07

i don't know if it's looked at the same way now, but in the olden days if you went to a man's house to see his etchings  It was automatically assumed that you knewwhat you were there for.



*sigh* i guess that, in essence, is the kind of logic that has lead to my fucked up doubt here..... Reality is i know that i know that i know, that just because i went to their home it didn't give them the right to do what they did...But, i guess sometimes when i see people on sites like these, making statements such as these, and remembering the cops attitudes {takenbyjohnr07 are You related to some law enforcement officials?}, i find myself in doubt mode...But, thanks mostly everyone else for reassuring me again.


_____________________________

“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb


(in reply to takenbyjohnr07)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Confused - 1/12/2008 4:16:05 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

quote:

ORIGINAL: takenbyjohnr07

i don't know if it's looked at the same way now, but in the olden days if you went to a man's house to see his etchings  It was automatically assumed that you knewwhat you were there for.



*sigh* i guess that, in essence, is the kind of logic that has lead to my fucked up doubt here..... Reality is i know that i know that i know, that just because i went to their home it didn't give them the right to do what they did...But, i guess sometimes when i see people on sites like these, making statements such as these, and remembering the cops attitudes {takenbyjohnr07 are You related to some law enforcement officials?}, i find myself in doubt mode...But, thanks mostly everyone else for reassuring me again.



After my own experience with campus police, I can completely understand needing some reassurence. If any law enforcement offical told you that you consented by simply going over to someone's house, please report them to their supervisor or their supervisor's supervisor.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Kalista07)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Confused - 1/12/2008 4:20:18 PM   
MissOchistic


Posts: 315
Joined: 4/30/2007
Status: offline 		Whoa, I don't think going to someone's house is consent at all. Not even close.
I go to other peoples' houses all the time for coffee, movies, and conversation, and no safeword is ever needed.

I think consent is given once very clearly explained situations allow for it, and personally, if there's going to be sex, I specify "Is sex alright?" and when it's about to happen, "Are you sure everything's okay here?", unless we have history. If anyone implied in any way that my being there meant I should/would have sex with them, I would not ever be there again.


_____________________________



"The amount i care for Thee
is more than two, but less than three."

"Submission is a potlatch."

(in reply to Kalista07)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Confused - 1/12/2008 4:21:29 PM   
MissOchistic


Posts: 315
Joined: 4/30/2007
Status: offline 		Oh, and as far as when they can "pull it back"...any time they damn well please, blue balls or not.

_____________________________



"The amount i care for Thee
is more than two, but less than three."

"Submission is a potlatch."

(in reply to Kalista07)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Confused - 1/12/2008 6:03:54 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		It is wise if you are going to someone's house to discuss beforehand what may or may not occur. If you just want to meet them in their own surroundings to get a greater sense of who they are and they want sex and play, certainly you're less likely to have an unpleasant experience on either side of the equation if you spell out expectations prior.

As to withdrawing consent, you can do that at any time. Which does not mean they will listen, anymore than it means that if you get into the backseat of their car. But I think most people will understand you are serious if you tell them stop or call the cops. However with people you don't know really well, this is one good reason for a safe word. It allows him to know when you mean "Stop, I want out" or  pretend "stop".

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to Kalista07)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Confused - 1/12/2008 6:17:06 PM   
fullofgrace69


Posts: 99
Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline 		see i played with a Dom on new years eve id met Him a few times, and we'd been chatting for ages, and there was the potential for more so i agreed to meet and play, we agreed tentativly on a few things that would happen, but He was very aware that i hadnt played for a while and that i'd need time to get used to things again. and even though i had agreed to spending the night chained, when it got to it and i couldnt deal with it (the night had been exhausting for me lol and i'd kinda come to the end of my ability to deal with any more) he respected me saying no i dont consent anymore, and unchained me. As far as i'm concerned even me saying yes i consent to come to urs and spend an evening playing could have been pulled if something hadnt felt right wen we got back to His.
I feel strongly, that you have the power to withdraw your consent the minute you start to feel uncomfortable, im not saying the minute your asked to do something you don't really fancy doing, but if you really dont wanna do it or can't handle it and you need to say stop you have every right to say it, and if he ignores you and carries on regardless well than thats non-consentual and totally wrong.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Confused - 1/12/2008 7:57:51 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa

quote:

ORIGINAL: takenbyjohnr07

i don't know if it's looked at the same way now, but in the olden days if you went to a man's house to see his etchings  It was automatically assumed that you knewwhat you were there for.

What olden days are you talking about? Maybe in your life, you automatically assumed you were there to see more than the mans etchings. I am only a year or two older than you are, and I never had that assumption. If a man asked me to come up to his apartment for a cup of coffee after a date, it was not automatically understood that I was to have sex with him. Sometimes coffee is just coffee.


"Would you like to come up and see my etchings?" is a very old pick-up line.  You can hear it used in some old movies.  It's similar to the line Shirley MacLaine's character, Aurora, in the movie, Terms of Endearment, used when she asked the Astronaut to come over and 'see her Renoir', which was in her bedroom.
 
"I'm inviting you to come over and look at my Renoir."
           "You're inviting me to bed."
"It happens to be in my bedroom."



"Would you like to come up and see my etchings?" has been recognized as a double entendre for so long that by 1939, James Thurber could draw a cartoon of a hapless man in an apartment lobby saying to his date, "You wait here, and I'll bring the etchings down."
 
From the Time Magazine article: Words Don't Mean What They Mean
Thursday, Sep. 06, 2007 By STEVEN PINKER
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1659772,00.html


For some guys, just letting them buy you a drink or two is enough 'consent' for them.  And, some don't take "No" for an answer, even when you say it loud and clear.  Being very careful to know who you are going to be spending your time with, especially in a nonpublic place, is your best hope of making sure that your consent and your withdrawal of consent, as in, "that's enough", "stop", "no", will be respected.
 
Edited to add:  "Formal consent" between a Dominant/Master and a submissive is something that the two of them decide on, hopefully, after some indepth discussions about what things like, "submit" and "own" and "control" and "use", etc. mean to each of them.
 
joy
Owned servant of Master David 

< Message edited by slavegirljoy -- 1/12/2008 8:21:55 PM >

(in reply to MistressOfGa)
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RE: Confused - 1/12/2008 8:23:48 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

At what point exactly is consent given?


When you intend for it to be given, not on someone else's timetable.

quote:


i mean if a slave (or a sub) is talking to someone online and then goes to their house, does that equal consent?


If that's what they want it to mean, then that's what it means.  If it's not what they intend for it to mean, then it doesn't.  But people cannot be mind readers, and in order for them to know what you intend for it to mean, they must rely upon you to say so in a clear and unambiguous fashion. 

quote:


i mean does the fact that they went to the person's house mean that they've then consented for any and all activities to occur?


I think the only folks that would engage in that sort of thought process are those that have reason to fear prosecution for nonconensual activity (or those who have already been convicted).
 
quote:


At what point can a slave (or sub) pull back her consent?


Any time he or she chooses. 
 
John


Agreed.  I would be very careful with anyone that believed merely going to a location implied consent and it certainly legally is absolutely not consent to anything sexual.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 1/12/2008 8:25:06 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Confused - 1/12/2008 10:43:36 PM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

damn, two posters beat me to all my points, lol!!!

 Don't you hate when that happens? lol

_____________________________





(in reply to kc692)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Confused - 1/12/2008 11:09:53 PM   
kc692


Posts: 3701
Joined: 3/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa

quote:

damn, two posters beat me to all my points, lol!!!

 Don't you hate when that happens? lol


Actually, not always, sometimes it means I am not as loony at times as I think I am if other folks like you had the same idea....or wait, does that mean instead you are in the same loon ship I'm on?????

_____________________________

Anyone can overpower; not many can INSPIRE.....

This is only MY opinion. If it's not yours, let's agree in advance to agree to disagree, OR, you can just get the fuck over what I had to say:)

(in reply to MistressOfGa)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Confused - 1/12/2008 11:13:49 PM   
Bound2One


Posts: 614
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

find myself in doubt mode...But, thanks mostly everyone else for reassuring me again.


Kalista, I am sorry you've been through a difficult experience.  'No', means 'no', which also means 'no'.... whether in a BDSM scene (which is why a safe word is so important) or on a vanilla date.  Please remember that. 

(in reply to Kalista07)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Confused - 1/12/2008 11:31:48 PM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kc692

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa

quote:

damn, two posters beat me to all my points, lol!!!

 Don't you hate when that happens? lol


Actually, not always, sometimes it means I am not as loony at times as I think I am if other folks like you had the same idea....or wait, does that mean instead you are in the same loon ship I'm on?????


God I hope so. The loon ship is starting to look mighty sane at this point. I just left the financial rights thread, I feel I have actually escaped.

_____________________________





(in reply to kc692)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Confused - 1/13/2008 11:43:34 AM   
Kalista07


Posts: 4240
Joined: 7/1/2007
Status: offline 		Wow...i just need to tell You all how wonderfully supported i feel here today...
Thanks!!


_____________________________

“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb


(in reply to MistressOfGa)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Confused - 1/13/2008 12:01:08 PM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
For some guys, just letting them buy you a drink or two is enough 'consent' for them.  And, some don't take "No" for an answer, even when you say it loud and clear.  Being very careful to know who you are going to be spending your time with, especially in a nonpublic place, is your best hope of making sure that your consent and your withdrawal of consent, as in, "that's enough", "stop", "no", will be respected.



Bravo, I think this is dead on.  While consent should be formalized, and should be able to be withdrawn at any time, the jerks out there don't always see it that way.  You need to realize that the moment you put yourself in a vulnerable situation, whether that be accepting an invitation to a private place, allowing bondage, or even allowing yourself to become mentally/emotionally vulnerable where you know you will have dificulty mustering arguement or defense against something you otherwise wouldn't have agreed to, is the moment you put yourself at risk.  Make sure you realize what could happen in that situation, and make sure you trust yourself, and the other individual enough to warrant that vulnerability.  I've been burned too, even when I thought I had all my bases covered.  I'm really sorry you've had to go through such a thing.  There are no guarantees in life, but you have to trust yourself, and someone else, to get to beautiful places in relationships.  But they are dangerous places too.


_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Confused - 1/13/2008 12:05:25 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Kali my sister, remember who you are: 

Kali (or Cali) is a Hindu Goddess who is the ferocious form of the Divine Mother, and who freed the gods from demonic forces.  While her earliest incarnation is a figure of annihilation, she is considered the Ultimate Reality and Source of Being.

When Kali says yes, she gives consent.  When Kali says no, consent ends.  Bottom line is, it's that simple.  And if someone is not listening, just show them the sword you carry in one hand, and the severed head you carry in another.

Cali




_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to Kalista07)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Confused - 1/13/2008 1:56:33 PM   
Kalista07


Posts: 4240
Joined: 7/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Kali my sister, remember who you are: 

Kali (or Cali) is a Hindu Goddess who is the ferocious form of the Divine Mother, and who freed the gods from demonic forces.  While her earliest incarnation is a figure of annihilation, she is considered the Ultimate Reality and Source of Being.

When Kali says yes, she gives consent.  When Kali says no, consent ends.  Bottom line is, it's that simple.  And if someone is not listening, just show them the sword you carry in one hand, and the severed head you carry in another.

Cali





Cali,
Have i told You recently how much You rock!!?? Seriously, You do.....  i don't care if You have a Master, have no Master, have 62 Masters, You will always rock in my world....


_____________________________

“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb


(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Confused - 1/13/2008 1:59:43 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

have 62 Masters


Well I think that is excessive.  If she ever has 62 Masters I will demand that she share the wealth with the un-mastered!




_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Kalista07)
Profile   Post #: 40
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