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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/25/2008 7:52:17 PM

sexyred1

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not really. he is just trying to get in your panties. if you wore any.

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/25/2008 7:55:37 PM

IrishMist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

not really. he is just trying to get in your panties. if you wore any.

Now Red...ummm, what do you think

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/25/2008 8:05:47 PM

jimdandymagnum

Posts: 20
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This seems to be getting off topic. I am penning a summary reply. You ALL have so many good thoughts on this topic. I hope I did not rattle any chains, that was not my purpose.

luvens,

JdM

"~When I was a child I prayed for a bicycle. I soon realized G~d doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness"

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/25/2008 8:53:40 PM

CNJDom

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It's too bad we're off-topic on such a good subject to explore and enlighten. Hope the thread comes back into view.

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 5:58:20 AM

pettingdragons

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I agree, how wonderfully written..When I was new to this site, (not to the lifestyle), I came upon several snobs who where rude and condescending just because I was new to the site. Other where helpful and directed me through the site. :)I believe these "snob" types make fun or look down upon others to make themselves seem smart or feel better about themselves. Its easier to be mean online or over the phone then in person. In the real world...life can be too honest for them .....my 2 centsPamela

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 6:14:24 AM

IrishMist

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~fast reply to no one in particular ~

You know; it has nothing to do with this being an online area. I am the same way in person, I speak to people in the same way that I do on here; I don't change my personality from one aspect to another.

I am 40 years old; I have seen enough shit in my life to last me another 40 years and beyond. If I was to meet any of you on the street or in a less formal setting in real life; and this conversation cropped up...my response and my attitude would be no different than it is here.

And it has nothing to do with thinking that I am better, more experienced, that I am making fun of someone; or that I am looking down on someone.

It has everything to do with reality and being mature, and responsible for YOURSELF, and acting in a way that shows that maturity.

If that makes me a snob here; if that makes me a snob in real life...then so be it. It is what it is and for those who think I am above them for it....that's your issue, not mine.

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 7:24:11 AM

TysGalilah

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Joined: 11/21/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

IF people see this knowledge and you communicate it nicely, then you get the respect deserved.

I believe we have tangled over this before.

No one deserves respect. Respect is earned.

Irish
You can feel this way and tell me not to respect you....but I am going to treat you with respect unless, or until the time, you show me you do not deserve it. why? because its not about you, its about me and how I choose to treat myself and others around me.....respectfully.

re: the topic of snob ( to no one in particular)

For me, a snob is someone who does alot of assuming and unfounded/lacking facts conclusion making. About themselves as well as the person they are snubbing.

Unless I have taken the time to get to know someone, how do I know what they went through to get to where they are now? How do I know their life experiences, which actually might give them deeper insights into something, even tho' their "time" in this particular scenario is less than mine?

My road might have been rough and efforts painstaking to get me here, but how do I know yours wasn't just as tough or more so ?

Interesting:
About 2 mos after signing onto CM ( under prior scn name Cyntilating) , I was met with some harsh words to something I said. I was willing to take the advice with a grain of salt and a smile on my face, BUT then was told by this person that " you are a newbie and you have to earn your buttons around here, you will be put through the paces by others until you prove yourself here" That I needed to just listen and learn, that she had been around alot longer and was new to the lifestyle once too and understood.
I appreciated her trying to help ( in her own way ) but what I found interesting was that > she didn't even know me. We had never talked before. She assumed alot about me and never bothered to ask any questions about me or my past..or present.

In actuality, she was 30 years my junior and my first BDSM Ds relationship had been 15 yrs prior to this conversation ...probably when she was in gradeschool. And if I resign myself to "just being quiet" > well then how does one "prove themselves" ? (what ever that means )..
She was so quick to call me a newbie.

Point is...We are all teachers as well as students, in life.
Each bringing a different level of experience and perspective that is valuable.

yes, listening is essential to being able to hear what we need to hear. But I also believe that sharing what we have/know helps us keep it real and vital.

Its interesting that someone will assume something about someone because they are "sitting behind a computer typing"..perhaps labeling them as fake or wannabee..........when the one assuming is also sitting in front of a computer as well.... how is one "real" and the other one not???

Its been my experience, in my 50 yrs of life, that when I start thinking I am better than someone else, smarter, wiser, luckier, etc> fate or karma or whatever you want to call it, has a way of kicking me in the ass and reminding me I am wrong about that!

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 7:30:31 AM

TysGalilah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

soo if you're percieved as a snob by some, and as a newbie by others...you are what???
a snewbie? a nob? (notice i didn't spell it k-n-o-b...i'm much better than that)

laughing

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 8:08:16 AM

Maya2001

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From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
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Irishmist, I have seen several of your responses to newbies, they are often brutal but also they come with some advice thrown in, to me sort of comes off as becoming a verbal shake them by the shoulders, slap in the face to make sure you have their full attention and then telling them to wake up, starting using your noggin and listen to what others are saying...... it's a bad world out there...if you don't smarten up ...your going to get eaten up.

If I was thinking of doing something totally stupid because I was newbie in deep sub frenzy mode your words might have enough impact to cause me to start thinking instead of staying in la-la frenzyland ... the lumps you deliver will be far less painful to learn from than the real time ones, so they are valuable to those that listen. This is why in my comments earlier phrased as "giving insults that have no advice, points add to them" (not quoted exactly). I would not want you to change the way you get messages across and I don't view as being snobbish.... there are plently of people of there that will only learn that way

I recently watched my stepmom get fed up and give her 50 year daughter a severe tongue lashing about realities of life about the foolish decisions and attitudes she has, I can only hope the pain and humiliation she felt from the tongue lashing, infront others will get her to smarten up and using common sense and make wiser decisions about her financial future otherwise I maybe to one stuck supporting her later on in life, and she did need and deserve the tongue lashing she received, but it needed to come years earlier

< Message edited by Maya2001 -- 1/26/2008 8:12:08 AM >

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 8:14:35 AM

fluffyswitch

Posts: 1108
Joined: 9/29/2007
From: Buffalo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

~fast reply to no one in particular ~

I am 40 years old; I have seen enough shit in my life to last me another 40 years and beyond...

It has everything to do with reality and being mature, and responsible for YOURSELF, and acting in a way that shows that maturity.

i understand what you're saying and agree with it on a certain level but...

i'm 22. does that mean that just because i'm 22 nothing has happened in my life that may possibly have given me a CERTAIN (i'm putting that in caps just for emphasis) level of maturity? or have i just been skating along naive and immature? because to be completely honest i associate with people of a wide range of ages and i've definitely encountered 20 year olds with a hell of a lot more tact and maturity than some 40 year olds.

and i have to agree with a previous poster--no one here has an idea what goes on on this side of the computer and it does seem some times that people don't want to take that into account. not that that's a completely bad thing-- i really don't have any interest in telling anyone my life story. but i think we all forget to take into account that without knowing an individual in r/l we don't know why they respond or act online the way they do.

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 8:29:19 AM

IrishMist

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quote:

Irish
You can feel this way and tell me not to respect you....but I am going to treat you with respect unless, or until the time, you show me you do not deserve it. why? because its not about you, its about me and how I choose to treat myself and others around me.....respectfully.

And that is all good and fine; all it shows is that what YOU see as respect, I see as courtesy. Yes, I can be courteous upon occassion; and no, it is not something that I feel a person has to earn.
I define respect as something different than courtesy.
But, each to their own. I use my own, you use your own...all is good as far as I am concerned.

In reply to fluffyswitch

quote:

i'm 22. does that mean that just because i'm 22 nothing has happened in my life that may possibly have given me a CERTAIN (i'm putting that in caps just for emphasis) level of maturity? or have i just been skating along naive and immature? because to be completely honest i associate with people of a wide range of ages and i've definitely encountered 20 year olds with a hell of a lot more tact and maturity than some 40 year olds.

and i have to agree with a previous poster--no one here has an idea what goes on on this side of the computer and it does seem some times that people don't want to take that into account. not that that's a completely bad thing-- i really don't have any interest in telling anyone my life story. but i think we all forget to take into account that without knowing an individual in r/l we don't know why they respond or act online the way they do.

NOWHERE in my post did I say that because YOU were younger that you did not have the same maturity level. Nor did I imply that YOU had not seen the same kind of shit that I had.

Don't try to put words in my mouth where there are none.

If you act with a level of maturity that shows you know how to be responsible for your own actions...then I treat you as such. LA here is half my age; and yet I can bet ( and win that bet ) that she knows more about life than I do....what's more, her maturity and level of responsiblity about herself is apparant. I don't treat her as an immature child who needs to be told how to act or what to do ( sorry LA, but you were the best example that I could use to make the point ).

However, the day she comes here and says 'I fucked up, I know I fucked up, but it was not my fault because he said this and I believed differently" is the day I tell her to grow up also.

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 8:39:16 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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LOL well the sad truth is that the modern hetero scene is rampant with ageism and youngsters often do unfairly get the shaft- so to then see youngsters a touch oversensitive about the issue is to be expected.

My boss' kid is "interning" at the office these days since he graduated and somehow didn't have enough time during the semester to also study and apply for grad schools or get another job. He was saying the other day that he really should have gone to all those job fairs on campus. THis is his way of trying to gain pity and reprieve by showing mock regret. I simply informed him that there's always still tons of fairs going on all the time and he can definitely check those out.

But it made me stop and realize- it's really been ALL my responsibility since I left high school. Even before then, as much as most parents hate to admit it, a lot of where I went was MY responsibility and MY choices. Sure, having some people helped, and having certain others would have helped more. But they were always there. If I'd REALLY wanted to do it (whatever it was), I'd have made it happen.

This was a freeing realization for me, partly because I'm in such a great place right now, but also I can stop any immature resentments, I can stop blame, I can stop the what ifs in a lot of ways. It's always been ME.

So I think that's why it gets me down when everyone starts bitching how "they" are watering down the life, and "they" aren't listening and being mean to me, and "they" think they know it all. Until you really make it about YOU and where YOU want to go, you're just stuck in quicksand.

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 9:49:55 AM

crouchingtigress

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the truth is that like vibrations attracts like vibrations.... it is the law of the universe.

what this boils down to is that if a person is finding intergration in to a new set of friends and aquaintences difficult, something about him simply does not fit in....

an example was a guy i knew who likes to crack sexist male jokes...he fits right in with his buddies, and possibly with co workers but here in our scene he was not a good fit...nice guy but had some growing to do....but he was smart...through a quiet conversation with me, he saw that behaviour that served him in the past no longer served in the present and he endevored to shut up and look around and learn the lay of the land.

another example was another person whos life skill set at interaction really annoyed me, and instead of telling him to change, or ignoring him, i made an apt with him and talked to him about how he was coming off...it evolved that we entered into negotiation, and i took him as my boy and he was thrilled...and for me one of the best decisions i have ever made.

being an aloof snob is only one way of handling a person who you clash with, but there are far more effective ways to harness that potential source of energy for the good of you and your community.

being a snob accomplishes nothing but dischord and disharmony.... but harnessing the power and potential of a fellow human being ...that really offfers results.

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 10:15:42 AM

MissHarlet

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We were all new to this lifestyle once .... If I had not been taught and given answers to my many naive,gullible, stupid sounding questions I would not be where I am today. Some may think that where I am is no big deal, but it is a place I take pride in and am comfortable with.

I always try to answer questions that are respectfully asked or that are at least courteous... even if I shake my head in wonder at times or think " OMG they have been reading too many books".

I dont always agree with others views and that is fine .. they dont always agree with mine. I can only draw from my experiences and what I hold to be " my truth". Any " advice" or suggestion I give to others .. I hope .. is heard and examined and used for what they find to be their " truth".

There is NO ONE WAY .. . too many times that is forgotten.

I am sure I am preceived as a snob by some as I seldom engage in the playful and all to often hurtful banter online. I really dont care. I also dont think they should change their behaviour to suit me ...... if it works for them and makes them feel better about themselves so be it ... I just skip their posts and we are both happy.

I do think we have an obligation to help those that are discovering this part of themselves to give them the benefit of our experiences and knowlege if asked .. and to allow them to make their mistakes and help pick them up and dust them off if they fall, and to be supportive when they question....

Just my opinion for what it is worth

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 10:42:30 AM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
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quote:

Interesting:
About 2 mos after signing onto CM ( under prior scn name Cyntilating) , I was met with some harsh words to something I said. I was willing to take the advice with a grain of salt and a smile on my face, BUT then was told by this person that " you are a newbie and you have to earn your buttons around here, you will be put through the paces by others until you prove yourself here" That I needed to just listen and learn, that she had been around alot longer and was new to the lifestyle once too and understood.
I appreciated her trying to help ( in her own way ) but what I found interesting was that > she didn't even know me. We had never talked before. She assumed alot about me and never bothered to ask any questions about me or my past..or present.

In actuality, she was 30 years my junior and my first BDSM Ds relationship had been 15 yrs prior to this conversation ...probably when she was in gradeschool. And if I resign myself to "just being quiet" > well then how does one "prove themselves" ? (what ever that means )..
She was so quick to call me a newbie.

Point is...We are all teachers as well as students, in life.
Each bringing a different level of experience and perspective that is valuable.

yes, listening is essential to being able to hear what we need to hear. But I also believe that sharing what we have/know helps us keep it real and vital.

Its interesting that someone will assume something about someone because they are "sitting behind a computer typing"..perhaps labeling them as fake or wannabee..........when the one assuming is also sitting in front of a computer as well.... how is one "real" and the other one not???

Its been my experience, in my 50 yrs of life, that when I start thinking I am better than someone else, smarter, wiser, luckier, etc> fate or karma or whatever you want to call it, has a way of kicking me in the ass and reminding me I am wrong about that!

i don't know if it was me that said it to you in this particular instance, but i have said that to people on these boards...and i stick by it...because we prove ourselves by showing who we are...not by saying who we are...because i can create another account and tell you i am a 75 year old gay leather man who was one of the old gaurd and probably come up with enough bullshit to pull it off for a week or so, but eventually ya'll are going to figure out that i am a 24 year old woman bullshitting you....when you get to some place new you have to prove yourself and i don't care who the heck you are where you came from....it's applicable in all area's of society and it's life...if it was me, i'm sorry i hurt your feelings, that wasn't my intention...but, if you're still holding on to it...it's time to let it go....if it was not me..still time to let it go....

take care
chelle

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 12:58:11 PM

TysGalilah

Posts: 589
Joined: 11/21/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

quote:

Interesting:
About 2 mos after signing onto CM ( under prior scn name Cyntilating) , I was met with some harsh words to something I said. I was willing to take the advice with a grain of salt and a smile on my face, BUT then was told by this person that " you are a newbie and you have to earn your buttons around here, you will be put through the paces by others until you prove yourself here" That I needed to just listen and learn, that she had been around alot longer and was new to the lifestyle once too and understood.
I appreciated her trying to help ( in her own way ) but what I found interesting was that > she didn't even know me. We had never talked before. She assumed alot about me and never bothered to ask any questions about me or my past..or present.

In actuality, she was 30 years my junior and my first BDSM Ds relationship had been 15 yrs prior to this conversation ...probably when she was in gradeschool. And if I resign myself to "just being quiet" > well then how does one "prove themselves" ? (what ever that means )..
She was so quick to call me a newbie.

Point is...We are all teachers as well as students, in life.
Each bringing a different level of experience and perspective that is valuable.

yes, listening is essential to being able to hear what we need to hear. But I also believe that sharing what we have/know helps us keep it real and vital.

Its interesting that someone will assume something about someone because they are "sitting behind a computer typing"..perhaps labeling them as fake or wannabee..........when the one assuming is also sitting in front of a computer as well.... how is one "real" and the other one not???

Its been my experience, in my 50 yrs of life, that when I start thinking I am better than someone else, smarter, wiser, luckier, etc> fate or karma or whatever you want to call it, has a way of kicking me in the ass and reminding me I am wrong about that!

i don't know if it was me that said it to you in this particular instance, but i have said that to people on these boards...and i stick by it...because we prove ourselves by showing who we are...not by saying who we are...because i can create another account and tell you i am a 75 year old gay leather man who was one of the old gaurd and probably come up with enough bullshit to pull it off for a week or so, but eventually ya'll are going to figure out that i am a 24 year old woman bullshitting you....when you get to some place new you have to prove yourself and i don't care who the heck you are where you came from....it's applicable in all area's of society and it's life...if it was me, i'm sorry i hurt your feelings, that wasn't my intention...but, if you're still holding on to it...it's time to let it go....if it was not me..still time to let it go....

take care
chelle

hi Chellekitty
thanks for your response. It was not you that I was referring to.. and it wasn't brought up because I have been or am holding onto "it"...nope. : ) Which is why I used the word " interesting" ...I find it interesting that it happens here....I brought it up as an example ( a personal one) that was mentioned to support my comment about> alot of assuming takes place with being snob'ish.

Naw, I didn't take it personally, nor did it cause me to shuddup either.. Something illogical about being in a chatroom and not chatting or signing onto an opinion board and never sharing an opinion.. : ) I just ....can't .....help....my....self...

You take care too
Cyndi

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 2:00:51 PM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TysGalilah
BUT then was told by this person that " you are a newbie and you have to earn your buttons around here, you will be put through the paces by others until you prove yourself here" That I needed to just listen and learn, that she had been around alot longer and was new to the lifestyle once too and understood.

That same line of crap exists in just about every group I've ever seen. Seriously... you see it at work, you see it at craft groups, bookclubs, hunting parties... everywhere.

I've never seen anyone say that in the forums (which doesn't mean it didn't occur there). If someone told me that in email, I'd tell them to stuff it, I'm not a circus act to be put through any paces.

BUT, being new in a group, ANY GROUP, it is always prudent to sit down, shut up, and pay attention. For example, it probably takes all of five minutes to figure out in ANY of the forums that there is no one true way to do any of this. So when someone starts spouting off about being a true sub, yeah, they're going to get a rash of shit for it. If you're going to act impulsive and juvenile, then you will be treated as such.

Cali

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 3:01:32 PM

fluffyswitch

Posts: 1108
Joined: 9/29/2007
From: Buffalo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

Irish
You can feel this way and tell me not to respect you....but I am going to treat you with respect unless, or until the time, you show me you do not deserve it. why? because its not about you, its about me and how I choose to treat myself and others around me.....respectfully.

And that is all good and fine; all it shows is that what YOU see as respect, I see as courtesy. Yes, I can be courteous upon occassion; and no, it is not something that I feel a person has to earn.
I define respect as something different than courtesy.
But, each to their own. I use my own, you use your own...all is good as far as I am concerned.

In reply to fluffyswitch

quote:

i'm 22. does that mean that just because i'm 22 nothing has happened in my life that may possibly have given me a CERTAIN (i'm putting that in caps just for emphasis) level of maturity? or have i just been skating along naive and immature? because to be completely honest i associate with people of a wide range of ages and i've definitely encountered 20 year olds with a hell of a lot more tact and maturity than some 40 year olds.

and i have to agree with a previous poster--no one here has an idea what goes on on this side of the computer and it does seem some times that people don't want to take that into account. not that that's a completely bad thing-- i really don't have any interest in telling anyone my life story. but i think we all forget to take into account that without knowing an individual in r/l we don't know why they respond or act online the way they do.

NOWHERE in my post did I say that because YOU were younger that you did not have the same maturity level. Nor did I imply that YOU had not seen the same kind of shit that I had.

Don't try to put words in my mouth where there are none.

If you act with a level of maturity that shows you know how to be responsible for your own actions...then I treat you as such. LA here is half my age; and yet I can bet ( and win that bet ) that she knows more about life than I do....what's more, her maturity and level of responsiblity about herself is apparant. I don't treat her as an immature child who needs to be told how to act or what to do ( sorry LA, but you were the best example that I could use to make the point ).

However, the day she comes here and says 'I fucked up, I know I fucked up, but it was not my fault because he said this and I believed differently" is the day I tell her to grow up also.

and NOWHERE in MY post did i state that that statement was directed as a personal statement aimed at you. i'm sorry if it came across as such however. i was stating my opinion about this topic not making a personal attack.

however (note:NOT RESPONDING TO ANYONE IN PARTICULAR) there does seem to be a level of ageism in this community as a whole, but then there is in general society.

< Message edited by fluffyswitch -- 1/26/2008 3:09:35 PM >

(in reply to IrishMist)

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Post #: 218

RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 7:38:32 PM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

~fast reply to no one in particular ~

I am 40 years old; I have seen enough shit in my life to last me another 40 years and beyond...

It has everything to do with reality and being mature, and responsible for YOURSELF, and acting in a way that shows that maturity.

i understand what you're saying and agree with it on a certain level but...

i'm 22. does that mean that just because i'm 22 nothing has happened in my life that may possibly have given me a CERTAIN (i'm putting that in caps just for emphasis) level of maturity? or have i just been skating along naive and immature? because to be completely honest i associate with people of a wide range of ages and i've definitely encountered 20 year olds with a hell of a lot more tact and maturity than some 40 year olds.

and i have to agree with a previous poster--no one here has an idea what goes on on this side of the computer and it does seem some times that people don't want to take that into account. not that that's a completely bad thing-- i really don't have any interest in telling anyone my life story. but i think we all forget to take into account that without knowing an individual in r/l we don't know why they respond or act online the way they do.

quote:

and NOWHERE in MY post did i state that that statement was directed as a personal statement aimed at you

Really?
From what I just quoted above, it would seem that you are a bit confused.

quote:

i was stating my opinion about this topic not making a personal attack

I did not take it as a personal attack. For that to happen, your opinion first would have to mean something to me on a personal level.

However, when you answer something in a direct way to something that I quoted; I take that to mean that you are answering me personally. If that is not the case, then next time, you should refrain from using the quotes; as they seem to confuse you a bit.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to fluffyswitch)

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RE: BDSM SNOBS - 1/26/2008 8:29:08 PM

fluffyswitch

Posts: 1108
Joined: 9/29/2007
From: Buffalo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

~fast reply to no one in particular ~

I am 40 years old; I have seen enough shit in my life to last me another 40 years and beyond...

It has everything to do with reality and being mature, and responsible for YOURSELF, and acting in a way that shows that maturity.

i understand what you're saying and agree with it on a certain level but...

i'm 22. does that mean that just because i'm 22 nothing has happened in my life that may possibly have given me a CERTAIN (i'm putting that in caps just for emphasis) level of maturity? or have i just been skating along naive and immature? because to be completely honest i associate with people of a wide range of ages and i've definitely encountered 20 year olds with a hell of a lot more tact and maturity than some 40 year olds.

and i have to agree with a previous poster--no one here has an idea what goes on on this side of the computer and it does seem some times that people don't want to take that into account. not that that's a completely bad thing-- i really don't have any interest in telling anyone my life story. but i think we all forget to take into account that without knowing an individual in r/l we don't know why they respond or act online the way they do.

quote:

and NOWHERE in MY post did i state that that statement was directed as a personal statement aimed at you

Really?
From what I just quoted above, it would seem that you are a bit confused.

quote:

i was stating my opinion about this topic not making a personal attack

I did not take it as a personal attack. For that to happen, your opinion first would have to mean something to me on a personal level.

However, when you answer something in a direct way to something that I quoted; I take that to mean that you are answering me personally. If that is not the case, then next time, you should refrain from using the quotes; as they seem to confuse you a bit.

shrug. fine. i'm confused. either way it's not worth continuing discussing it since it's not going to actually amount to anything meaningful outside of this board.

(in reply to IrishMist)

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