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Socialism - 2/9/2008 11:57:39 PM

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The below post isn't to be taken at face value. Also, it's not about the political notion of "socialism" I'm ranting about but the reason that some people support socialist institutions.

I wanted to write this while I'm good and pissed off, and too tired to give a damn for my inhabitions or reason.

I can feel my morality snapping. That concern for every human life as holding an intrinsic value is falling away. Values can not stand in contradiction, and it seems that my value for life was a contradiction to itself.

Socialists. Be they "socialists" proper, hippies, people for tax-based services for the entire population, or that guy who works parttime at the 7-11 demanding the same rights and privledges as a rich business man.. they're the damn contradiction. Not to mention abortionists, then murderers, then rapists, child molesters, etc.. but I've been able to keep my values despite them. They've pushed at me, but each life still had a value despite them.

It's the damn social ideals that have me right now. The ones which seem to be predicated on the self-serving assumption that resources exist, that by holding any excuse of a "job" would justify one's taking of such resources. That they want money and health care. But they're not willing to perform services equal to those that they demand. And then they want their god damn booze.

The existence of lives which burden and demean the efforts of others strikes me as a contradiction to the ideal of all life having value; afterall, how can something with a positive value maintain its positive value if it does more damage to other positive values of equal stature?

----

This has been one tired rant from someone who hasn't slept in days. I'm sure I'll think more clearly in the morning. Even in this state, I can see numerous holes in my own logic above. The fact I was even angry for a moment there speaks loudly as to my lack of sanity in this state.

Yet, still, I post this for the sake of the sentiment and not the particular logic behind it. I'm sure that once I've had seem and the room stops spinning, my sanity would bar me from concern and I'd never say anything about it. I'd just dismiss it as a fact of life and never rant.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 2/10/2008 12:57:32 AM >

RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:06:32 AM

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I think you messed up with that "values cannot stand in contradiction" part.
Sure they can!

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:08:12 AM

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The higher the fewer. It's a dog eat dog world. It's human nature to have challenge and an instinct to be the best or better than most. For men, success, achievment, and power are what we normally use to attract a mate. Out doing the competition helps ensure us finding the best mate or mates possible to carry our offspring.

Being the best means being of higher value. You have to surpass your competition by making your value worth more than theres one way or another.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:20:20 AM

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How is you are able to clearly link all those behaviours to "socialists". No socialists I know of sound like that. You must have had an encounter with some fauxcialists.

You sound pretty wound up. Maybe get an early night and resist the urge to post under the influence.

Z.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:22:03 AM

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quote:

No socialists I know of sound like that.

Bought a mocha latte vente lately?

(in reply to Zensee)

RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:24:01 AM

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In college today, we have plenty of socialists who want everything given to them while they go and smoke pot. Not that I'd claim to understand the subtle differences between various breeds of socialist, though I thought I made it rather clear in the OP that I was using the term loosely.

PS- My apologies if you didn't mean "resist the urge to post under the influence" in a hostile manner. Something about this level of exhaustion that leads me to look at everything a bit more cynically.

It is about 3:30 AM; I've been up doing the work, but I'm done now. It is time for some rest.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 2/10/2008 1:00:45 AM >

(in reply to Zensee)

RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:33:26 AM

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greetings curiouslord,

i'm not a socialist because i've read my marx and my political philosophy and all that bullshit. i'm not a socialist because i believe i should have handouts without working for anything. i'm a socialist because i have this bizarre, outdated idea that people actually have inherent worth. i believe no one deserves to die because they can't afford food or health care.

it's easy to be angry at the whole idea of social welfare when you don't have to live in the middle of poverty. it's easy to say people should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps or get over it or just go get a job or whatever other line you want to come up with. i grew up in a household that was below the poverty line (and the poverty line in america is below what anyone can pay for food and housing, let alone health care or anything else). my mother had a job only for the health care, because i've been chronically ill since i was five years old - and even then, we could not afford vision or dental care most of the time (neither of those is covered under most health care plans). i know what it's like to grow up and at six years old, be doing all of the cookign and cleaning, and knowing how to work up a monthly budget by the time i was nine. i know what it's like to watch my mother, who was also chronically ill, struggle to qualify for disability (she died before she got approved) and kill herself working in the process. i will be the first person in my family to get a college degree - and the only reason i am able to go to college is because i am on a full scholarship and i take loans to help pay my medical expenses. i also work part-time (i used to work more than full time before i became too ill). i know what it's like to know that there is no chance in hell that my parents could EVER help me with college - meanwhile my roommates don't work and their parents pay everything, and they don't have scholarships. i know what it's like to lose both of my parents, be abandoned by my entire family, and basically left to make my own way in the world - by the time i was 18 years old.

i'm doing pretty damn well, all things considered. there are plenty of people in the world - in this country even - in worse situations than me. because i'm still in college, the school health insurance is required to cover me - once i get out, i won't be able to afford it because the only way any health insurance would ever cover me (given my situation) is if i could pay them tons of money. internet and such is included in my rent (i live in one of those weird student apartments with multiple rooms but separate leases) so i don't have to worry about being able to make those extra bills every month. i can usually pay my phone bill and most of the time i have money for groceries. i have a master who loves me and takes me back and forth to the doctor (since i don't know how to drive and even if i did i couldn't afford a car). bless him he's one of those conservative nutjobs and he is in the same boat with all of you who think that we just need to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, but i love him and i'll keep him around anyway :P

in my opinion it's very easy to say that nobody should have a "handout" if you've never killed yourself working and still been dirt poor. to me, socialism is not about some abstract political philosophy. like i said, i've never read marx. i don't know a whole lot about much in politics, that's for sure. i just know that there has to be a better system than what i grew up with. if my government isn't here to make sure their citizens aren't living in poverty, why do i bother voting for them? for me, socialism is the radical idea that people should not go hungry. it's the radical idea that i voted for these idiots because they're supposed to be helping me out, not getting kickbacks from some corporation.

rsepectfully,
annabelle.

p.s. before you all start yelling welfare! food stamps! medicare! - i don't qualify for food stamps or medicare (ask the state of florida - i don't get it either). even if i did qualify for medicare, they don't cover most of the kinds of treatments i actually need. and welfare (as in, a welfare check) doesn't exist anymore in florida as far as i know. (if it did, i'd probably get denied for that, too.)

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 2/10/2008 12:36:41 AM >

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:33:42 AM

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I just mean you seem tired and pissed off and maybe a little low on sugar.

I think you are making a lot of unfounded and extremely nasty generalisations about a world view you don't understand clearly. A night's rest will work wonders.

Better to chill than post in anger. Just a suggestion.

Z.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:34:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

No socialists I know of sound like that.

Bought a mocha latte vente lately?

No! I drink tea I make myself.

Oh dear! Have I deviated from The Party Line?

Comrade Z.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:48:27 AM

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From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee
No! I drink tea I make myself.

Oh dear! Have I deviated from The Party Line?

Comrade Z.

pfft. real socialists drink starbucks. didn't you get the memo?! come, come, it's time for your reeducation. i'll even let you lick the whipped cream off of me if you like ;)

comrade a.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:50:15 AM

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Yeah, you're right.

I just know I'd never make a point of anything once I get some sleep. I ended up in the ER over the summer because I was so insenstive to my own emotional state that the physical syptoms of it backed up and tore me up pretty badly. As soon as I get some sleep, I'm just going to go back to my studies without the least bit of concern for voicing anything of the sort.

I'm just so tired of seeing Art majors and guys working at Pizza Hut. It's not the poor people I'm mad at, but the people who don't do anything or spend their time with self-gratifying things. Like the Art majors.. they don't do it because it'll heal anyone or produce any food, but because they think it's fun. They want to spend all of their time playing. Or, the guys who work at Pizza Hut who are just too lazy. Or the frat boys who will consume their parents' resources in a drunken set of years, then drop out and live off social security/unemployment/other people/whatever.

I have nothing against the children, the people who try, or the handicapped/sick. It's just the people that readily drain resources doing nothing. I've known so many of them personally in life, despite being in a place where people are supposed to be hard working. It's them who I'm mad at.

I'm sorry for the earlier rudeness.

PS- To everyone, I hope I'm getting my point across. I'm not mad at everyone who's ever worked at Pizza Hut or been in a frat, or everyone who's ever been down on their luck or tried in earnest but stumbled. It's the people who expect everyone else to support them that I'm mad at, but it's hard to articulate that at the moment.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 2/10/2008 12:54:28 AM >

(in reply to Zensee)

RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:55:37 AM

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greetings cl,

i have a dirty secret.

i decided to do religion because i'm selfish. i LOVE religion. i get to talk about what i love talking about all day long every day for the rest of my life. eventually, after i'm in so much debt i'll die in debt, they're actually going to pay me for it. not much, but they'll pay me (i hope).

i think the study of religion is incredibly important. i personally want to make religious studies more accessible to regular everyday people who aren't in academia or if they are, don't even know religious studies exists anyway.

but i mostly do it because it's the only thing i can imagine wanting to do every day for the rest of my life.

selfishly,
annabelle, who is feeling so dirty now, but does actually get what you're saying. i work at a sandwich shop that is across from a university and is open until 3:15am. i get to see all those drunk people spending daddy's money on a fairly regular basis. i'm even becoming desensitized and not wanting to smash their heads open quite as often now (although i still do occasionally have a desire to eviscerate the drunk drivers with a rusty spoon - it's bad enough that all 38000 of our students can't drive, but then they have to drink alcohol and try to show off their mad skillz. ugh).

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 2/10/2008 12:56:50 AM >

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i have the kind of beauty that moves...

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 1:04:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I'm not mad at everyone who's ever worked at Pizza Hut or been in a frat, or everyone who's ever been down on their luck or tried in earnest but stumbled. It's the people who expect everyone else to support them that I'm mad at, but it's hard to articulate that at the moment.

Oh those aren't (necessarily) socialists, CL. Those are called lazy fucks. They come in all political stripes and income ranges.

Now stop reading my responses and get some rest before your head explodes. Man, school is stress enough. No need to compound it.

Z.

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"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

(in reply to CuriousLord)

RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 1:14:36 AM

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I applaud your restraint, hisannabelle. Drunks and cars bring out the homicidal maniac in me too. My standard blessing for them - "May you only kill yourself". Regrettably that is so seldom the case.

And thanks for the whipped cream and licking offer and all but I am on a calorie reduced regimen for a while. Maybe lapping up a low fat chai-latte...

Z.

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"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 6:10:08 AM

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It's frightening when a young person holds beliefs that would be dear to an old fascist

.

PS: I wonder whether CuriousLord thinks The Virus is a cool way to get rid of the lesbians, and the communists. I feel an old song coming on :-) .

In this hotbed of vice, in this nursery of sin
Let them perish like flies in the reckoning
Your evil acts that none can name
Let them pave the way to the grave

God made the virus to punish the wicked
Let the bells ring out the old and ring in the new, in the new, in the new

The sixties was an evil time
Everybody took drugs and had sex all the time
On the darkest night was the day to them
But a sun arose to kill them

God made the virus to punish the wicked
Let the bells ring out the old and ring in the new

This pious plague
Is seeking out sin
Makes me believe
It's our turn to win

Though you've slaughtered the foe of the family
This holy disease wastes the enemy
If you'd only send a special death
For the lesbians and the communists

God made the virus to punish the wicked
Let the bells ring out the old and ring in the new

This pious plague
Is seeking out sin
Makes me believe
It's our turn to win

God made the virus to punish the wicked
Let the bells ring out the old and ring in the new
God made it to punish the wicked

(McCarthy)

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 2/10/2008 6:16:11 AM >

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 6:46:59 AM

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~FR~

"Socialism refers to a broad array of ideologies and political movements with the goal of a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community.[1]. "

"The social democratic governments in the post war period introduced measures of social reform and wealth redistribution through state welfare and taxation policy."

These are some of the basics of socialism, I think the OP is pissed at some lazy pot smokers, which does not automatically make them socialist.

Most people that use the words socialist or fascist, do not know what they mean.

< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 2/10/2008 6:48:26 AM >

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 7:06:16 AM

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Pah, Orion! It's just as much fun for fascists to whine about socialists as it is for socialists to take the piss out of fascists

.

All in all, CuriousLord made some sweeping (offensive?) statements about all sorts of people... he sounded like an old fascist, no two ways about it. I'm sure he'll get over it after a good night's sleep though.

When I was a student (but in England: maybe it was different?) I was lucky enough to share digs on campus with a few engineering students. It was a lot of fun: they were ultra-conservative geeks who had little clue, but they had a great year hanging out with us dope smoking bohos. They actually loved us: we had tales of sex and scandal. They had tales of broken down motors and missing butter in the fridge :-) .

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 8:30:40 AM

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I would offer that since, A: insanity can be defined as doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result, and, B, socialism fails every time it is tried, it must be said that socialists are insane.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 8:37:26 AM

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When I examine the return on federal tax dollars for Minnesota (and several other states) I would say that there is nothing insane and not working about socialism.

It appears to work real well.

Ron

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 8:43:36 AM

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It seems the opening line, "Also, it's not about the political notion of "socialism" I'm ranting about but the reason that some people support socialist institutions.", was pretty much missed.

People really suck at thinking abstractly. I'm not even sure why I bothered last night. I was right, I wouldn't have done the same thing rested. It was stupid to even try.

(in reply to mnottertail)

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