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This just makes Me so sad - 2/29/2008 5:37:06 PM

ItalianSMistress

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcMEL3_YsVI

This is a two minute clip from Ellen today, talking about a murder, the killer and victim were both in grade 8.

This has got to stop, the victims are getting younger and younger, and its so stupid and a waste of two lives. It saddens Me that this kid was so full of hate, he would do something so barbaric.

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 2/29/2008 6:09:08 PM

Pyrrsefanie

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The kid who killed him probably learned the intolerance from his parents. There's the really sad thing -- if you're surrounded by it at home, having it fed to you by your parents, who are the only people you're supposed to DEFINITELY be able to trust... then what chance do you have of breaking free from that cycle of hatred?

Not to justify what he did, as he ultimately had a choice to, y'know, not commit murder. Which again I have to wonder about the upbringing of a kid who at age 15 doesn't know that killing someone is wrong and reprehensible, and if that's not to blame, perhaps we have yet another miniature sociopath on our hands.

Either way... good God, the world is going insane. It seems like there's been a lot of these "WTF?!" cases lately.

(in reply to ItalianSMistress)

Post #: 2

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 2/29/2008 6:16:29 PM

faerytattoodgirl

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probably got the gun from daddy.... guns in the home...always a problem. yet they'll never have a law to ban them...nope.

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 2/29/2008 7:33:10 PM

Gwynvyd

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This is a huge trend.. the whole GLBT community has become deomonized over the last 7-8 years and these crimes are becoming more and more common. Yet we are *still* fighting to have it seen as a hate crime.

Please look here for more info http://www.hatecrimesbill.org/simmie_williams_jr/index.html

Creating second class citizens in any society means that the rest will see them as lesser, and there by not as deserving of protection, rights, care, and conciederation in the work place, in public, and under the law.

More will say it simply is not true, it doesnt exist.. they will burry thier heads in the sand and say it doesnt happen, it is not that bad. Usualy these types of people are the very ones who "have nothing against" that group of people when asked.. but would never want one in thier family.

Ellen is right. It is an election year. Every canidate I vote for ( even my delegates I am voting for to go to the Convention < which is tomorrow hurray>) I check to see what thier stance is on what matters to me. Equality is a huge issue.

I emplore you to please check who you are voting for and check not only what they say they stand for but also thier voting record. This is so important.

I also impore you that if you have ums to talk to them... there are so many hateful messages out there in the media and in the world~ that makes it "OK" to hurt, hate, and belittle those who are GLBT or even who might be.

Some schools are open to this, some are not.. but it is a positive step on getting bulling a bit more under control and to allow children to feel safer at school. http://www.hrc.org/issues/parenting/schools/7201.htm You can also use some of these tips with your ums at home. This link will help not only with GLBT but any type of bulling.

We have come a long way.. but we have so much further to go now because of legistlation being written in.. media, and polictians telling us that the GLBT community are lesser and some how not worthy. Please do your part to help us all be equal.

Gwyn

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Post #: 4

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 2/29/2008 9:54:57 PM

IrishMist

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~fast reply ~

I am going to speak bluntly, and honestly.

I watched the video, listened to it…and the only thing I felt while watching it was disgust for Ellen…to use this as a personal crusade for her own agenda…disgusted me.

And before ya’ll berate me for my insensitivity…I work in law enforcement. I see, touch, deal with, and experience; death, violence, hate, abuse…on a daily basis. Not only in adults, but in youngsters too. This also not only disgusts me, but depresses, angers, and makes me so sad that sometimes I wonder what the hell we have become on some days.

What I dislike about ‘videos’ and shows such as this one is that you only hear the side of the person speaking. It probably is true that this boy learned hate of this kind from his family; but no where did I see her try and make the point that it could also have come from another direction. What I mean is this. Some youngsters and adults learn hate from their family; but some manifest hate and rage of this kind ‘in reaction to something that they themselves have witnessed personally’. Who is to say that this kid was not reacting to nothing more than embarrassment that turned to anger? I am not saying that it excuses him for what he did; only that to automatically assume that it was only one reason is kind of …one sided?, don’t ya think?

quote:

probably got the gun from daddy.... guns in the home...always a problem. yet they'll never have a law to ban them...nope.

And this, is just plain…unrealistic thinking. Guns do not kill people…people kill people. I have guns in my house. I don’t hide them. They are in the open. Every single one of my youngins, from the time they were able to hold one; was taught to shoot. What’s more, they were shown the damage a gun could do. Education is the key to ‘gun control’; not banning, not blaming…education. Pure and simple.

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 2/29/2008 10:26:42 PM

Gwynvyd

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I have worked in law enforcement as well.. and it always amazes me that when you have a hate crime of this sort you inevitably get people who say it couldnt possibly be because the kid was gay.. or maybe it was something else... even when the person who did the killing was screaming things like I am going to kill this faggot ( As I have heard before in police reports on people who have been killed because they were gay)

There is no Ellen agenda here..

I can not believe you are thinking it is an Ellen agenda.. wow she is upset a kid was killed.. how sick and twisted of her... She is upset that the reason he was killed is because he was openly Gay.. How dare she have the gal.. WTF?

This falls right in there with saying "The Gays have an Agenda.." Why yes we do.. not to get killed, or fired, or discriminated against because we love someone of the same sex. I am not blasting you.. but you are disgusted with the wrong person.

Simply being gay was so awful when this other kid recived a valentines day card in class. ( remember those.. you get one from *each* student..) it was so awful in his mind he had recived one from this gay kid he killed him. There were reports of the kid actualy taunting him days before.. but nothing was done about that.

I dont know about you.. but I didnt hear anything about this school shooting on the news. Why? When all school shootings are covered widely.. why wasnt this one?

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1582039/20080221/index.jhtml?rsspartner=rssYahooNewscrawler

I dont think taking away peoples guns is the answer.

If people are responsible with thier guns they have them with trigger locks, or in a gun safe. Not laying around for the kids to get them in the first damn place.

People are fine with things and not changing how they talk or think it is too much work.. besides it isnt them or thier family... Untill they found out someone in their family is affected.

Taking away guns isnt going to make people more tolerant.

Education does that.

Gwyn

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Post #: 6

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 2/29/2008 10:34:34 PM

IrishMist

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You know Gwynvyd, perhaps you should go back and re-read what I wrote. I was not saying that hate crimes against ANYONE should be tolerated.

Just a tad defensive there aren't you?

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 2/29/2008 10:41:37 PM

SubbieOnWheels

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd
I dont know about you.. but I didnt hear anything about this school shooting on the news. Why? When all school shootings are covered widely.. why wasnt this one?

It got lots of coverage here, but probably because it happened nearby. I didn't realize it was covered only locally.

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 2/29/2008 10:46:17 PM

MollHackabout

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Joined: 2/16/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

~fast reply ~

I am going to speak bluntly, and honestly.

I watched the video, listened to it…and the only thing I felt while watching it was disgust for Ellen…to use this as a personal crusade for her own agenda…disgusted me.

How dare a gay person speak out on gay issues!
Would you accuse her of having an 'agenda' if she were speaking against domestic violence, because she's a woman? Or speaking out against racially-motivated crimes if she were a woman of colour?

quote:

What I dislike about ‘videos’ and shows such as this one is that you only hear the side of the person speaking. It probably is true that this boy learned hate of this kind from his family; but no where did I see her try and make the point that it could also have come from another direction. What I mean is this. Some youngsters and adults learn hate from their family; but some manifest hate and rage of this kind ‘in reaction to something that they themselves have witnessed personally’. Who is to say that this kid was not reacting to nothing more than embarrassment that turned to anger? I am not saying that it excuses him for what he did; only that to automatically assume that it was only one reason is kind of …one sided?, don’t ya think?

I must have watched a different video. She clearly places responsibility on the media, the government, and consequently, voters. And yes, there is reference to be careful of the images we send to "our" children, which I understood more broadly than just cautioning individual parents, but rather society at large.

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 9

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 2/29/2008 10:58:07 PM

Gwynvyd

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yeah I do get defensive.. when ever people see it as an "Agenda" when someone brings up hate crimes it irks the hell out of me. Having been a victim of them. and having it brushed off time and again. Also watching my friends and loved ones getting it brushed off.

What Ellen said was "Some were along the way Brandon got the message" She did not blame it on his parents, the media.. ect.

But she is right that it does start with laughing at gay jokes, and seeing the hatred that is out there. They get the idea that it is ok to see the people who get picked on.. in this case GLBT as lesser.

Remember when it was "ok" to lynch black people who happened to be in the wrong area, or did something wrong... this is where all of this is going. Only because of how embarrasing all of this is, and how we hate as a society to admit we could be doing this at this late date we refuse to acknowledge that killing and beating someone because they are gay is a hate crime.

In some of the reports the kids from the classroom stated that Brandon had teased Larry about being gay just days before. Brandon then recived a Valentines day card... He then came in and shot Larry. This article got pulled ( go fig) but I found the cached version.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:0JyJiJbUZfoJ:www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-oxnard23feb23,1,1086853.story+larry+king+killed&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us

Gwyn

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Post #: 10

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 2/29/2008 11:18:56 PM

Gwynvyd

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It is akin in my mind at least to when the white men folk of a town would take a black guy and lynch him because he had looked at a white woman funny. It was just "wrong" he should have known better.. he should have "known" he was going to upset the white men.

This very out gay kid had a crush on a boy.. told the boy about it. the boy ended up gunning the kid down in school.

Instead of saying , ya know.. I dont swing that way.. can we just be friends... his one time friend gayness was so Horrific and awful that he had to be killed. Just saying no thanks wouldnt be good enough.

This statement:
but some manifest hate and rage of this kind ‘in reaction to something that they themselves have witnessed personally’. Who is to say that this kid was not reacting to nothing more than embarrassment that turned to anger? I am not saying that it excuses him for what he did; only that to automatically assume that it was only one reason is kind of …one sided?, don’t ya think?

Yeah he was embarrased that a gay kid had a crush... what the fuck in our society makes it "ok" for him to shoot the other kid? We all deep down know it isnt ok.. just like back in the time of lynchings we knew it wasnt ok.. but still some stood back and said "well.. they shoulda knew better.. thats just the way things are around here." That is complete BS.

This... *This* is why it needs to change. This is why people need to be educated on how bad it has become.

The ingrained hatred, fear, and social inequity seeps into the subconcious and makes all of this possible.. and it hapens more and more.

It is all of our problems... because we are part of society.

Gwyn

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Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

(in reply to Gwynvyd)

Post #: 11

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 12:17:55 AM

IrishMist

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I laugh at gay jokes; I poke fun at gay people.
I laugh at black jokes; I poke fun at black people.
I laugh at white jokes; I poke fun at white people.
I laugh at straight jokes; I poke fun at straight people.

My sister is bisexual; my daughter is best friends...for the last 4 years, with a male who happens to be openly gay; and my oldest daughter has, in her short time, gone from swearing she is a lesbian ( and living with her GF ) to being with men, to being back with females.

None of it bothers me.
None of it bothers me when it is others outside my family.

What does bother me is the way that Ellen went on a tirade about being gay herself and then using this shooting to further her rant against the hatred that IS protrayed towards those who do not conform to what 'our so called society' thinks is normal. THAT IS WHAT DISGUSTS ME about that clip.

I am all for speaking out against it; I am all for doing something to stop it; I am all for standing up against it...but I sure as hell am not for someone to take a tragedy and use it to make themselves look better or boost their ratings. FUCK THAT.

And yes...if this had been about a white killing a black, and instead had shown up on Opera....my disgust would be the same for the same reasons.

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 12:18:42 AM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

Yet we are *still* fighting to have it seen as a hate crime.

Hate crime bills are nonsense. I agree that this is horrible, but there is no need to start passing laws against thought. Murder is murder, assault is assault. The only reason to ever discuss offender's thoughts is for the purpose of establishing intent and motive. We do not need more laws.

(in reply to Gwynvyd)

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 1:25:52 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Hate crime bills are nonsense. I agree that this is horrible, but there is no need to start passing laws against thought. Murder is murder, assault is assault. The only reason to ever discuss offender's thoughts is for the purpose of establishing intent and motive. We do not need more laws.

In a way, yes they are nonsense. But as a young straight white male, presumably Christian or of Christian heritage, who has no disabilities, one might ask whether you could have any first hand experience of hate crime along these lines?

But hate crime laws also fulfil a very important social function - by enhancing the penalties for crimes deemed motivated by hatred, society sends a clear message that this is an aggravating factor which will receive additional punishment as compared to the same crime not motivated by hatred.

If we are to hold that punishments handed down by the courts are meant to be deterrents to some extent, then by treating hate motivated crime with special penalties, the deterrent to further hate crimes is increased.

The only way to deal with it though is to make it possible for third parties to report crimes as hate crimes - for often the victims (should they survive) are too scared to do so. And to treat by default, any crime against ethnic groups, religions, sexualities, genders, age and disabilities as hate crime until it can be proven otherwise - the offender(s) word not being sufficient proof to overturn that default position.

The only problem we have had in bringing in hate crime laws and reporting here, is that I'm afraid it just isnt applied equally - and that is something which needs looking into - it is just as much a hate crime when ethnic minority groups attack a white person out of hatred, as when the situation is reversed.

E

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 1:40:54 AM

Rule

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I have always suspected that people that molest homosexuals - and in this case even murder them - are themselves latent homosexuals that use violence against homosexuals as a means to deny their own latent homosexuality.

(in reply to ItalianSMistress)

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 1:59:02 AM

LadyEllen

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Thats a somewhat popular view Rule - and likely true in some cases. But I think its plain human nature being demonstrated more than anything else. Because we define ourselves like our primate relatives in terms of troops - our friend and families - those like us, and like our primate relatives need to maintain a strong, healthy troop to ward off others from our territory, its inevitable once we throw in our peculiarly human cultural and social ideas too, that who belongs in our troop and who must be repelled or expelled is affected by these ideas in addition.

Thus we have a tendency to repel those who dont look the same (different ethnicities), those who dont think the same (religious variations). And we retain the basic instinct of killing or expelling those who are too old to be useful to our troop (elder abuse), those who are disabled and no longer useful to our troop, and those who for whatever reason are not useful reproductively to our troop - for we need mating to keep our troop strong (LGBT).

But as natural as these tendencies might be, we are human and as such we recognised a long time ago that our animal instincts are not necessarily the best bases for our actions if we are to avoid conflicts - which generally reduce our success in the world by their effects. If we are to be fully human, then we cannot be exactly as the animals, so we developed laws to govern our ends so that our animal instincts are controlled, for the good of all; where we are now is the next stage of that development where we have to throw off the laws developed so far and which still rely to some extent on animal nature, and move further towards being gods.

E

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Post #: 16

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 2:00:35 AM

Foititis

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What disturbs me is why there is such a large amount of open violence against young gay males. Why is it young men feel that their masculinity is so threatened by having a gay person attracted to them? Personally I'd seen it as a great compliment, guess you just can't get past those wholesome family 'values' can you?

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 17

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 2:08:18 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Foititis

What disturbs me is why there is such a large amount of open violence against young gay males. Why is it young men feel that their masculinity is so threatened by having a gay person attracted to them? Personally I'd seen it as a great compliment, guess you just can't get past those wholesome family 'values' can you?

My pet theory is that every male in the world is so utterly convinced that he's "God's Gift" and that every woman in the world would want to mate with him, that this gets applied too in the case of gay males; obviously the gay male wants to mate with him, because after all he's so damned irresistible!

Obviously, the impression of himself the male has, is at variance with the opinions of others. This is one of the factors which plays a part in the fact that its women who choose men, not the other way around - and I dont know, but maybe its the same for gay men?

E

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Post #: 18

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 2:57:01 AM

Rule

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A very good post (16), LE. I agree.

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 3:16:58 AM

IrishMist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

A very good post (16), LE. I agree.

Yes, I would second that.

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