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RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/25/2005 10:21:46 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I think the only thing i have to say to all of this, is don't close yourself off to new ideas. Maybe your Dom is trying to tell you, hey i think you are great the way you are. Embrace yourself and see yourself as I see you. I think if you start hardlimiting every thing you feel uncomftorable about, you aren't leaving yourself alot of room to grow.


I think that this is wonderful advice. Just as an example, I had an experience early this summer that I believe very much relates to your current situation. I have always been very self concious about my arms. I have always thought that they were somewhat "masculine". I used to do a lot of weightlifting and also a fair amount of heavy physical labor. Although others have told me that my view of them is incorrect, I have not been able to overcome the feeling. This has caused me to always keep them covered....even on the hottest of days.

Early this summer I was visiting at the home of ScooterTrash and Shifted Jewel. They were taking me out for the day and it was HOT! As we were getting ready to go, Jewel produced a tank top for me to wear. OMG! There was just no way I could actually go out in public like that! No one had seen my arms in public in at least 10 years! Despite my "resistance", Jewel "insisted" that I try it on. She and Scooter then decided that I looked just fine, despite how I felt, and yes that would be my attire for the day.

Well, I must tell you, I was very self concious. I was absolutely sure that everyone was looking at me and thinking terrible thoughts about my masculine arms. Through the course of the day though, I found that I was much less self concious and much more relishing the feeling of being in such cool and comfortable clothing. Well, I stayed a week or so after that....and tank tops became the norm. They even sent me home with some.

Now that summer is coming to a close I can tell you that this has been my coolest summer in many years, despite it being amongst the hottest summers in recent memory. I can also tell you that I am no longer self concious about my arms. Not to mention, I have had quite a number of compliments on all of the cute new tops. I even had a girlfriend of mine confide in me that she wished she had the confidence I have to be able to wear such outfits. I told her....you do hon....you just have to "help" it out.



_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to justatoy2)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/25/2005 10:24:02 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot
We are talking about my professional face and going out socially, where I may run into clients, contacts etc.

You keep bringing up new reasons why this isn't cool for you. Maybe you need to really just sit down on your own with pen and paper (old fashioned style eh) and write down "Reasons Why I Don't Think This is a Good Idea"

That way you can go through them each together thoroughly.

quote:

Yes, it is rude for people to ask such a question, but they do. So the answer is to invite more of this type of rude behavior by showing it off more often, to more people so that the odds of more questions are increased? And my comfort level is decreased?

The more you are asked, the more practice you have with telling people that you aren't comfortable discussing it, or whatever it is you will say to delicately handle the situation. Over the LONG TERM, one would hpe you would become more comfortable. That's what training is about, long term behavior and perspective changes.
quote:


I am not defending my self consciousness as a " good" thing. But neither is it a "bad" thing. It simpy is what is is, and I am unwilling to go thru the emotional pain/discomfort of tearing down what I have built up, in order to spend alot of stressful and unhappy times to try and figure out a way to build myself back up.

And that's what you and your dom have to go through now- deciding whether this path of training will ultimately bring you to a place of more fulfillment in the end, either for yourself or through service to him. It's not wrong at all for you to decide this isn't where your life is going, and it's not wrong for him at all to want to train you to the perspective he finds best for you.

You simply each have to decide if it will work happily for everyone in the long term to be together.

(in reply to maybemaybenot)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 12:35:40 AM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline 		All this talk about "hard limits" and how this poor woman should have listed it as one of hers.

What a load of bullshit! Let's see, do you list as a hard limit that you will not stop brushing your teeth at the whim of your master? How about bathing? Do you state that not showering regularly is a hard limit?

We discuss hard and soft limits in regards to things we think might arise. She explained her position on her makeup. She gave this position early on, in the "courting" phase as she put it, which would be before any "agreements" (think in terms of contract) was made. It was not then considered something that would be an issue.

Do I think that her dom is a jerk? I don't know because I don't know him. The point is that on this issue he is wrong. End of story.

I applaud you maymaybenot for having standing your ground. No one ever disputes that it is a dom's duty to protect the health and well being of his sub, yet they will all vigorous defend an illogical whim of a dom as it being his right. It makes absolutely no sense.

As for me, I guess I need to go and work on my "hard limit" list. I wear contact lenses after all, and I certainly don't want to find someone and then later have them tell me that I must suddenly start wearing my glasses all the time because he thinks it will teach me a valuable life lesson.

(in reply to maybemaybenot)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 1:01:51 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut
As for me, I guess I need to go and work on my "hard limit" list. I wear contact lenses after all, and I certainly don't want to find someone and then later have them tell me that I must suddenly start wearing my glasses all the time because he thinks it will teach me a valuable life lesson.


But but but... glasses turn me on!

Just call it a Librarian Fetish

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 1:16:17 AM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren


quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut
As for me, I guess I need to go and work on my "hard limit" list. I wear contact lenses after all, and I certainly don't want to find someone and then later have them tell me that I must suddenly start wearing my glasses all the time because he thinks it will teach me a valuable life lesson.



But but but... glasses turn me on!

Just call it a Librarian Fetish



Well then, should we ever meet, I will wear them for you. Just because you have always entertained me and educated me here.


< Message edited by FLButtSlut -- 9/26/2005 1:57:50 AM >

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 1:44:37 AM   
NewlyBruised


Posts: 22
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline 		huh, well... you don't like it... walk

you're you - even if he owns you.

if you're chained to a wall in the dungeon... we might have a problem.

however - I think you're not.

so... if you WANT to obey this decision - do.

If you are uncomfortable - do not.

What will HE do if you decline to stop? Is this his deal breaker too?

The other option - and my favourite personally (but it's my smartassedness that makes it that way) - do it, stop wearing makeup and let it all show - but make up a story that shuts people up about your skin - tell them you were abducted by purple lizards, and they spit on you and stained your skin. Or it's an experiment with new makeup and ask them if they like the alternative colouring you're trying out.

Or, try this - when they ask you what happened, ask them what they mean. When tehy say your skin, tell them your skin is normal and healthy and ask them why they thinks it's their business anyway. Tell them, politely, that while their concern is appreciated it's tactless.

And finally, ask yourself this one last thing - if he left today, would you miss him?

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 2:30:17 AM   
frillsnthrills


Posts: 15
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline 		i know... and good for them. They are not for me though, just not my style. 'Right' or 'wrong' doesn't come into it. Hairy legs and armpits just doesn't go with an elegant dress and heels ;-)

(in reply to FelinePersuasion)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 3:34:23 AM   
frillsnthrills


Posts: 15
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline 		Ok.. ok, so the name calling was a bit tacky of me. It was my 3rd post, i live and learn. :-)

(in reply to fastlane)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 5:49:57 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut

What a load of bullshit! Let's see, do you list as a hard limit that you will not stop brushing your teeth at the whim of your master? How about bathing? Do you state that not showering regularly is a hard limit?


I did. We decided that he is cannot make rules regarding my personal apperance that would damage my ability to work. So, while not stating spesific things, he knows that he cannot control that aspect of my personal apperance.

BEcause not showering regularly would make me unable to go to work, he cannot control it. You don't hvae to think of -every- eventuality, just the general categories which one does not want controll exerted over.


quote:


Do I think that her dom is a jerk? I don't know because I don't know him. The point is that on this issue he is wrong. End of story.


How can one be wrong in doing what one things one is allowed to do? He hasn't been told "no, you cannot have controll here" only "no, I don't want to do this" I think those are two very different things.

quote:


As for me, I guess I need to go and work on my "hard limit" list. I wear contact lenses after all, and I certainly don't want to find someone and then later have them tell me that I must suddenly start wearing my glasses all the time because he thinks it will teach me a valuable life lesson.


Maybe it -would- be a good idea to think about what areas of your life could be control if your dominant partner sees fit. It's always a good idea to realistically know what you don't want someone to tell you to do.

Another example--I refuse to change my religious practice. It is realistic to think my partner could ask that. We've agreed that he will not controll that aspect of my life.

As new things arise, we either talk about them, or I do what he wants.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 5:54:53 AM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RandBcouple

If your Master wants you to walk around without a single drop of makeup on your face, my advice to you would be to simply say Yes Master and obey. He has His reasons, and your only concern should be to obey him and please him in every way you can. We all have our own insecurities, but we need to find ways to get over them and in the long run this will be beneficial to you, don't hesitate or contemplate what to do, just do as you are told. You will be much happier for it in the long run, and most importantly, you will make your Master happy and proud of you.

~Best of luck

Babygirl



The "master always knows best" and "your only concern should be to please him" is starting to get waaaayyy out of hand. This "he has the right to change on a whim" is ridiculous as well. If "master" comes home on a whim one day and says, "today you start being a human toilet and I will shit in your mouth each morning." This is his whim, so you blindly obey? You didn't list it on your "hard limit" list, but rather you both discussed having no interest in such things. Today, it is his "whim" to have the interest, so you just follow along, because he is "master"? I guess if you are willing to compromise your own values to bow to a whim, then I guess so. Me, I'm proud of my values, and I don't compromise them on a whim.


quote:

ORIGINAL: justatoy2

I think the only thing i have to say to all of this, is don't close yourself off to new ideas. Maybe your Dom is trying to tell you, hey i think you are great the way you are. Embrace yourself and see yourself as I see you. I think if you start hardlimiting every thing you feel uncomftorable about, you aren't leaving yourself alot of room to grow. For example, if your Dom said i want you to undress and crawl naked before me, and you said...naww i really don't feel comfy with that, isn't that similar? We all have issues about our bodies, faces, looks, whatever. If you try it, you may find it to be very liberating. You never know until you try. Anyway i will you luck on this, i know its a diffucult thing to go through. I know from my own experience. Peace.



A more appropriate comparison would be that her Dom asked her to undress in the local supermarket and crawl naked to him. Or perhaps, you feel that because you are told to do that, you don't have a right to feel "comfy" with it. Pay attention, she DOES go out in public at times sans makeup, it ISN'T liberating. Just because her dom is now telling her to do it is not going to suddenly cause it to be liberating.

I said it before, and I will say it again. No, this man should not be villified, however, he should not be so blindly defended either.

(in reply to RandBcouple)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 8:23:46 AM   
ChereeAmoor


Posts: 185
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline 		Continue wearing your make-up, as it is part of your grooming. We all do things to look/feel better than we normally do when we first roll out of bed, or at least I hope we all do! I read somewhere that 87% of all females in the US wear cosmetics, so if he really, really wants a bare-faced girl, he is going to be doing some looking!

As far as teaching humility is concerned, maybe he is biting off more than he can chew. I think there are some things that must be self-taught.

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 8:34:56 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChereeAmoor

Continue wearing your make-up, as it is part of your grooming. We all do things to look/feel better than we normally do when we first roll out of bed, or at least I hope we all do!

Depends on what's going on and how I feel already. I love being nude as much as I love dressing up. I wear appropriate nice boring clothes for work, but honestly I'd be ok with being nude all the time if it was socially acceptable.

quote:

I read somewhere that 87% of all females in the US wear cosmetics, so if he really, really wants a bare-faced girl, he is going to be doing some looking!

Is it really that awful a thing for submissives in general to follow an order to not wear make-up? I think we can agree that this situation is a special one with specific issues and concerns involved. It just doesn't compute for me that the average looking submissive without specific concerns would have it be such an issue that they would refuse to obey such a simple order.

A dom doesn't have to find a woman who doesn't wear make-up. A dom has to find a woman willing to submit to the dominants orders regarding the use of make-up.
quote:


As far as teaching humility is concerned, maybe he is biting off more than he can chew. I think there are some things that must be self-taught.

In the end, everything is self-taught, it all has to be taken into the person and accepted actively by the person themselves. No matter what it is, if the person refuses, then there's nothing going on.

But if the person is open to it, humility can be learned and taught just like many other things.

(in reply to ChereeAmoor)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 9:35:37 AM   
nelbot


Posts: 95
Joined: 9/6/2005
Status: offline 		As for my 2 cents, you say it is a deal breaker for you- whether that is a good thing or a bad thing it is what it is. If you are willing to go back on your word, however, would to me seem the worst of all- if it is a deal breaker it is, if it isn't you should never had said it was. Maybe making it a hard limit is something you should have done from the begining but as far as I am concerned there is always room to change your mind and want to renegotiate terms. THAT might be a deal breaker for him, who knows. But it is what it is and there seems to be no more reason to discuss it, he wants to see if you change your mind- you want to see if he changes his. Don't ask us whether or not we think you are justified in discovering this limit you will not break, ask yourself if you will break it- if not then it is a hard limit, a deal breaker and then the only thing that is up for discussion is if the deal is breaking...

_____________________________

In life there are no winners, only saints and sinners
of pleasure and pain both have their gain for
what is a devil but an angel in bondage?

(in reply to maybemaybenot)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 9:45:32 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14414
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		My view is....neither of you is being unreasonable.

You're uncomfortable and you have discussed it at length.

He's actually trying to do something to help you become comfortable.

My issue with this situation is that what he is suggesting is akin to getting over your fear flying by plunking you on a plane without giving you the tools to deal with the situation.

If this is something which you choose to pursue for him, I would suggest talking to psychologist to give you some tools to deal with the anxiety that this brings up in you.

I can understand what he's trying to accomplish, I just feel he's going about it in the wrong manner.

And finally, I'll say again. We are all in this "lifestyle" because it makes us happy. It's something that we're all entitled to. I don't buy the "if he's happy, I'm happy" routine. (That's a whole 'nother post) If you're not happy, you need to do something different.



_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 10:54:59 AM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline 		I think he should give her a choice: go out without makeup or go out wearing a halloween mask. After all, if she insists on covering her face then he should chose how she does it.

It is all about her vanity so I can see why he's doing it. But I also see it as an almost spiritual issue along the lines of eastern philosophers who said someone with no possessions is truly free. I see such vanity as a serious problem in someone who would walk out on a relationship that is otherwise fine. However, she would obviously prefer carrying that burden for the rest of her life because she said in her original post that she was really just looking for affirmation for her point of view; the inconsistencies erin pointed out prove that.

_____________________________

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." . . . Mark Twain

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 11:16:17 AM   
petwolf22


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		in the end we can all make judgments on what we may not fully understand, but it is going to be her choice. She's going to have to listen to herself and do what she thinks is right, regardless of what anyone of us says about her or her Master on here.

(in reply to happypervert)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 11:21:30 AM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline 		This subject has really been done to death, I think because most of us are not that concerned with makeup.

Let's use something different, but similar circumstances (as in physical alteration caused by serious illness). If she had been diagnosed with breast cancer and needed a mastectomy, if her master told her that she should not have reconstructive surgery because it would teach her humility, would you all still be asking her the questions that you are? BOTH situations are because of a medical condition causing an alteration of your physical appearance, hers discolored her skin, my example leaves her with no breasts. Both can make a woman feel self conscious about her appearance, but I bet none of you would dispute her desire to have reconstruction surgery because it made her feel better about herself.


(in reply to happypervert)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 11:34:03 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut
Both can make a woman feel self conscious about her appearance, but I bet none of you would dispute her desire to have reconstruction surgery because it made her feel better about herself.

No one is disputing her desire. In fact we're all encouraging her to really sort out and examine her desires.

But we are saying that there is a choice here- stick with your desires, or submit them to the authority of the dominant. Either choice is acceptable and its up to her to decide which is the best for her well-being in the long term. But it is a choice.

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 12:44:00 PM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline 		First of all... a big Thank You to all who have written with pro and con advice/ideas, etc. While I may look like a hard head and unreasonable.. there have been things written that I did not consider. I have taken them to heart and have made a plan, outline of things I want to include in our discusssion. More to see if there is something more below the surface than what he is stating. Again, in my OP I offered the suggestion that maybe he is having difficulty with this. Seems by many relpies that is impossible. It has to be me, because I am submissive and he is Dominant. I actually hope that is the problem, that is something we can work with and can come to a resolution.

I began this thread for confirmation of what I was feeling, yes, that is true. I also said I would welcome any thoughts that could show to me how this would be a positive, relationship expanding experience. Some have pointed out possibilites that I did not consider, deeper than " master says, sub does" and they have been helpful in forming my approach to this all.

While I am fairly thick skinned and take criticism well, I do take issue with others re inventing my post.
As for my this being " all about my vanity". My written words were this:

*** I refer to myself as somewhat " vain ". Meaning that I am not a beauty queen, but like to look my best when out publically. < ie: hair done, make up on, dressed neatly, well groomed, clean, etc. You get the idea> ***

I clearly defined what I meant by " vanity", I even put it in quotations as not to be misunderstood. I simply like to look my best when out at work or in a public venue. < work and public are one in the same to me> My Dominant likes me to wear red.. bright red. I am a redhead, this is not a comlimentary color for me... I wear it when he wants, because it is appealing to HIM !!! I wear it publically, despite not liking it with absolutely no emotional distress. I could list many other things to bore everyone, but will not.

There are no inconsistancies in what I wrote.. they were taken out of context and " line itemed". My blotching is not my disease.. it is a side effect of medication.

If this cannot be worked out, I will leave yes, very true. This is not because I have some sort of extreme sense of conciet.. it is because I chose not to take on the emotional burden of feeling crappy about myself. < bad subbie, bad subbie, you have no right to feel good about yourself, you should feel like crap>

As for " you should have made it a hard limit".. I admitted perhaps the posters were correct in that. Lesson learned. However, in the conception of the relationship.. as I stated in my OP.... I told him I will not go out publically without evening my skin tone. " i will not".. I was not vague or misleading. I stated what I was not willing to do.

My final words are not to gain any one's pity.. I don't feel bad for myself, so need no one elses.

I spent three years on Prednisone < steroid> and Cytoxin < breast cancer chemotheraputic agent, used in my case to treat a different disease> Both of these drugs cause Physical, emotional, chemical, and psychcological disturbances that were beyond my ones control. I got a " moon" face which completely distorted my features. Due to the redistribution of fat my neck became like a linebacker, I got shingles 4 times, once on my forehead. I got a cataract, I went thru a complete and irreversable menopause, at a time I was planning to have a child. I lost bone density. I had 3 tooth abcesses requiring surgical intervention. I got an unknown amount of skin abcess, that required lancing I lived with a white blood cell count that put me a risk for secondary infection. I lost my immune system to fight these secondary infections. I lost my platelet count, which interferes with blood clotting. I had frequent scleral hemmorhaging< bleeding from the small vessels in the white's of your eye making it " blood red">
I could not go out during cold season very much, due to a depleted immune system. I had episodic hallucinations from dose increasing of Prednisone., I had chronic fatigue. Sometimes I lost my hair, sometimes I grew hair in very unfeminine places. Depended on my dosing of meds.. I could go on and on.... I lived with this for three years. Then I went thru another year of withdrawl from these medications which was physically painful. Bone and joint bpain, inability to bend my ankles or wrists for periods of time.. etc. I went to work every day, I maintained my home everyday, I cooked the meals every day, I involved myself in the lives of those I loved. Yes, I had days, some times many in a row, where I was miserable and not myself. I was entitled to that. And those who cared about me understood and accepted it. I still have scars on my back, my arms and my upper chest from the abcesses. I don't cover them or hide them. I wear sleeveless clothing in the summer, even backless dresses. I have no choice but to accept them. I believe I am a stronger person today, for having gone through it.. and as unpleasant as it was, there were many valuable lessons on what and who is important in your life and how you approach life.

So yes, I take offense to anyone suggesting this is soley about my vanity... I explained this was a result of illness/treatment. I did not think at the time I needed to detail any further than that. I spent a very long time with daily inner and outer " scars" and functioned quite well, because it was beyond my control. I had no choice. In this very itsy bitsy case of my make up wearing, I have a choice. Call me what you will.

This information and more was disclosed to my Dominant very very early on. It is possible I will go thru it again, he needed this information to see if he wanted to enter into our relationship given the potential medical problems and the duration of treatment. And this is one of the reasons this new request is soooooo out of character and upsetting to me. He knows where I have always stood on this matter. I think any " adjusting" to this matter, I did years ago. I know what humility is... i was "disfigured" for three years, on every level, not just outwardly.


maybemaybenot

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 9/26/2005 12:51:44 PM >

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: makeup or no makeup - 9/26/2005 12:54:46 PM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline 		And a word to those of you who have supported me...Thank You for your understanding. It has helped me be comfortable with what I may have to go through. Well, as comfortable, as one can be. ~ sigh~
maybemaybenot


(in reply to maybemaybenot)
Profile   Post #: 60
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