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RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 11:56:10 AM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Dartmouth...2008;

"
Dartmouth accepted 44.6 percent of African Americans who applied -- 2.5 times higher than the overall rate of 18.3 percent. Native Americans were accepted at 34.6 percent and Latinos at 29 percent. White students, on the other hand, had a more difficult time getting accepted; only 16.2 percent of white, non-international students received letters of acceptance.
This kind of racial preference has white students crying foul. The Supreme Court approved last summer the consideration of race in college admissions after two white appellants sued the University of Michigan for discrimination. The petitioners alleged that the University's use of racial preferences in undergraduate admissions violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment and Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
The resulting decisions handed down by the Supreme Court found that race could legally be used as a factor in admissions decisions, but not in the specific way it was used by the undergraduate school. In the majority opinion in the Michigan law school case, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor declared that the Constitution "does not prohibit the law school's narrowly tailored use of race in admissions decisions to further a compelling interest in obtaining the educational benefits that flow from a diverse student body."

This is just one example out of thousands. As I stated before, HM is a minority, and, He is in a very high ranking position in a major university. He disagrees with this on principle, as do I.


_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 11:57:10 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		So much for my theory that colleges and unis are enlightened institutions of higher education.
Well, one notable exception, "YALE" but we all know that.

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 12:07:56 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Where are you quoting from, blushes?

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 12:49:52 PM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		http://www.ivysuccess.com/dartmouth_college_2008.html

*edited to say* unfortunately, this is not difficult to find at all....just one of the first ones I stumbled across.

< Message edited by xxblushesxx -- 3/13/2008 12:51:16 PM >

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 12:57:37 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		You quoted from a site owned by "admissions strategists"?!!!

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 12:57:51 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

These things were put in place because there was already division and no equality.  Putting affirmative action aside, the Black Beauty Pagents and Black Only Scholarships were in whole funded by Black People. There were no major across the racial barrier corporate sponsors for things such as this initially.  The interest only came from non-black corporate sponsors when it was determined that money and/or noteriety could be made from it.  They were started so that black people became empowered and show that they are a force to be reconed with.  They continue today so that black people continue to become empowered.  Until things of this nature came about and flourished, there was no equality.  Until there is true equality, these things will continue to exist.


I have to say I really do agree with most if not everything you've said.  I didn't think what Ferraro said was racist.  I don't agree with what she said but I don't consider it racist.

There are St. Patricks Day Parades for irish-americans - I never see people complaining about that.  There are scholarships available for people only of italian, irish, and a variety of european descent yet I don't ever see complaints about that.

C~


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

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The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 1:00:47 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Is there any indication whether the selected applicants were chosen because they showed themselves to be harder working, more driven candidates than those who were unsuccessful?  In short, couldn't they just be more likely to produce better lawyers in a justice system that is also "coincidentally" in need of more minority practitioners? 

(in reply to xxblushesxx)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 1:02:19 PM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Are questioning the numbers, the statistics, the quotes from the Supreme Court or what? It's a valid site with accurate data.
What exactly is your point, KS?

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 1:04:44 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Admissions strategists... this is a kind of college to go to college... I wonder who the majority of their clients are? Are we really expected to take this source as a proof that, "black students get preferential treatment", seriously?

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 1:05:43 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		http://www.ivysuccess.com/dartmouth_college_2008.html

"While Connerly and other opponents of racial consideration of any kind use the argument of fairness to make their point, proponents of the use of race also argue that it is a question of fairness--fairness for those who have not had as much opportunity in their lives."

What many universities consider is that many minority students never were afforded the opportunity that many of their white counterparts take for granted.

Is it fair? Not anymore than if you got to school in a white suburb of Chicago that you are offered many more resources than the majority of the minority students that are not afforded that luxury.

To further make your argument it would be interesting as to what favoritism is bestowed upon these students once they are accepted? Less expectations? What percentage don't make it?

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/13/2008 1:06:14 PM >

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RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 1:15:00 PM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Idk...
I do believe racism is wrong no matter which direction it's pointed in.
There are a lot of poor disadvantaged people of every colour, and I really wish they could have all the advantages the ones 'who have' do.
KS, I could send you thousands of pages of data and info showing that indeed there is a bias toward minorities within academia, but, I tend to doubt the numbers and the statistics would move you.

"Is there any indication whether the selected applicants were chosen because they showed themselves to be harder working, more driven candidates than those who were unsuccessful? "
 
This is a great question, and the reason that I said not only should grades and test scores be taken into account but also clubs and other accomplishments. But still in a blind manner so everyone is playing on a level playing field.

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com


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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 1:16:05 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

I absolutely know so.
HoneyMaster is a high-ranking higher education person, and He knows so as well.
He is a minority, btw...and thinks people should be given the same opportunites based on grades, test scores, clubs joined etc.
These should be blind applications...by which I mean race should not be known to those making the decisions. It should be performance based, period.
Do you believe it should be some other way?
I find it disrespectful and insulting to minorities, and unfair to the rest.


What about legacies?  At my undergraduate alma matter its common knowledge that in the points system used, legacies get extra points for that. 

On top of that they value diversity (and no that doesn't mean counting the number of black people because the number of black people they admit is woefully low) so they do take into consideration if someone is an asian american cattle farmer from Idaho because they will bring something unique to that class.  So literally there is no such thng a blind application, we are all unique individuals with a particular story to tell and potentially contribute to the college/university.

As a black woman that went to an ivy league university I find it insulting and ignorant when I've had people tell me that I got into either the undergraduate or graduate university I went to because of my race or my gender.  People that know nothing about my achievements (which I'm definitely not sharing on here of all places), who seem to presume that I couldn't have possibly reached where I did because of hard work, late nights, or practicing (in my field at that point) for hours.  Of course, its because I'm black! Duh!

BTW you may want to actually go to the universities websites to understand their student population.  Dartmouth's most recent class is only 7.6% Black.  Yale is 7% and Harvard 10.2%.*  There's other ivy's (Cornell, Columbia, Princeton), but I'm not going to do the research for you - just go to each universities website.

C~

* See: http://www.dartmouth.edu/apply/generalinfo/profile.html
http://www.yale.edu/oir/factsheet.html
http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/counselors/stats/index.html


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to xxblushesxx)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 1:18:32 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Rant....I love the fact that people think that because we live in this country that all are afforded the same education or opportunities...It just isn't so. If educators are wise enough to realize it then I have no problem with them trying to do some sort of a balancing act by skewing admissions.

We live in a society of idiots....Today I saw a survey where only 28% of the citizens of this Country know that 4,000 soldiers had died thus far in Iraq.

I also saw a survey about exit polls where the question was asked what percentage of voters were basing their decision solely upon race....The response by white voters was approximately 15% of the voters cited that as the primary factor in reaching their decision.

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 1:34:03 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		General repsonse, or rather to about half the posters.

I don't understand why people want to support white racist admission or minority racist admissions. If you want to be fair about the skewing, it should be based on income and opportunity. I see zero reason that race should even be mentioned on any college application, or taken into account ever. Now, income, quality of the schools attended, yeah.

In my view if any person thinks a race section should exist on a college application, they definitely need to examine why, when income, and quality of schools could address the same issues, without racist questions being shoved down our throats..

< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 3/13/2008 1:35:00 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 1:35:03 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
As a black woman that went to an ivy league university I find it insulting and ignorant when I've had people tell me that I got into either the undergraduate or graduate university I went to because of my race or my gender.

Why? Surely it will at least cross people's mind if they know or only believe they know that +ve discrimination is taking place.

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 1:38:41 PM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		"I find it insulting and ignorant when I've had people tell me that I got into either the undergraduate or graduate university I went to because of my race or my gender." 

As would I. I never said or implied that about anyone. I said that minorities have an unfair advantages as far as admissions go at many/most major colleges and universities. Fact.

HM is a minority. He has a Phd and a doctorate. He is a doctor, and an educator at a large University. He feels the system is unfair, as do I.

"I love the fact that people think that because we live in this country that all are afforded the same education or opportunities...It just isn't so. If educators are wise enough to realize it then I have no problem with them trying to do some sort of a balancing act by skewing admissions."

I do not believe we are all afforded the same educational opportunities. It is not the educators that skew admissions, it is the people in charge.

Something I've been thinking about, the Supreme Court is forcing KY to change how they decide which school is available to which child. We had been trying to skew the numbers so that minorities got the same education as non-minorities, and we were spanked by the Supreme Court and told we are not allowed to consider minority status in our elementary, middle and high schools. Otoh, they have ruled that colleges may do just that.  

I absolutely do realize this is a hot button issue, and the last thing I want to do is insult or offend anyone; but if this country is ever to be a truly diverse melting pot, we have to understand each other. I really hope that the arguments I have made have been seen as honest, well thought out, and respectful, because the last thing I want to do is cause a larger division than there already is. I think the first thing that needs to happen is for all of us to be able to feel that we can voice our opinions respectfully, and that *if* we do have a point that isn't based on hate or fear of someone else's race, that the others can at least accept that perhaps it is only an honest opinion.



_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com


(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 1:44:59 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		the link is from a 2002 Guardian article about University entrance requirements.
http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/worldwide/story/0,,816369,00.html
quote:


For decades, many predominantly white institutions ( in the US )have assigned extra "points" to applicants from under-represented racial groups to help them clear the admissions bar.

(in reply to xxblushesxx)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 2:29:18 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

In reply to the OP, have you seen the voter count?  It is very clear that the majority of African Americans favor Obama, and the majority of the white middle class or what is left of it favor Hillary.  I am anti McCain.  Which one wins the nomination is the one I will go for. 
It is about race, and that is the sad part that in this year of 2008, we cannot elect a candidate based on race or gender yet. 
 
Regards, MissSCD



Obama, is mixed race, his mother is white I believe. Therefore as I see it , maybe he is in a good place to be a leader of one of the most powerful countries on this planet. He has as far as race is concerned, a foot in each camp, maybe he is the answer.

Sadly in our civilised world, race is still a big issue, a very sore pity it is, I would have liked us to be further from this, but we are not. Furthermore, I feel we will not get any further until we put away these stupid ideas. Yes, we might be of  a differnt colour, but we are all people and we all want the same, equality and integration.

There are I know people who call themselves supremacist, but the question I have to ask, is when they have got rid of those of a different skin colour, what is next, religion, sex, preference, hair colour or even people with spots. And when they are all gone, there is nothing left that is different from yourself, oh, I am sure there will still be something until you are on your own alone.


We're gonna find out where you folks really stand.
Are there any queers in the theater tonight?
Get them up against the wall!
There's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me,
Get him up against the wall!
That one looks Jewish!
And that one's a coon!
Who let all of this riff-raff into the room?
There's one smoking a joint,
And another with spots!
If I had my way,
I'd have all of you shot!


(Excerpt from The wall by Pink floyd)


How far have we really come since WW2


Yoda


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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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(in reply to MissSCD)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 2:33:25 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

I absolutely know so.
HoneyMaster is a high-ranking higher education person, and He knows so as well.
He is a minority, btw...and thinks people should be given the same opportunites based on grades, test scores, clubs joined etc.
These should be blind applications...by which I mean race should not be known to those making the decisions. It should be performance based, period.
Do you believe it should be some other way?
I find it disrespectful and insulting to minorities, and unfair to the rest.


What about legacies?  At my undergraduate alma matter its common knowledge that in the points system used, legacies get extra points for that. 

On top of that they value diversity (and no that doesn't mean counting the number of black people because the number of black people they admit is woefully low) so they do take into consideration if someone is an asian american cattle farmer from Idaho because they will bring something unique to that class.  So literally there is no such thng a blind application, we are all unique individuals with a particular story to tell and potentially contribute to the college/university.

As a black woman that went to an ivy league university I find it insulting and ignorant when I've had people tell me that I got into either the undergraduate or graduate university I went to because of my race or my gender.  People that know nothing about my achievements (which I'm definitely not sharing on here of all places), who seem to presume that I couldn't have possibly reached where I did because of hard work, late nights, or practicing (in my field at that point) for hours.  Of course, its because I'm black! Duh!

BTW you may want to actually go to the universities websites to understand their student population.  Dartmouth's most recent class is only 7.6% Black.  Yale is 7% and Harvard 10.2%.*  There's other ivy's (Cornell, Columbia, Princeton), but I'm not going to do the research for you - just go to each universities website.

C~

* See: http://www.dartmouth.edu/apply/generalinfo/profile.html
http://www.yale.edu/oir/factsheet.html
http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/counselors/stats/index.html



Wildfleurs, exactly, schools like "YALE" are chock full of legacy admissions.
The Bush and Kerry (or whatever their name was before that) families are some of the oldest wealthy families in the country.
Most of the Bushes go to "YALE".
Then you have people like Ted Kennedy's son the boy "congressman" who went to Phillips Academy in Andover, Mass who's graduates go onto places like Harvard and Stanford. For some reason "Patches" Kennedy went to,....Providence College.
Of course they'll never release his grades from Andover or Providence College but if you have enough money you simply "buy" a "degree."
Of course no-one wants to talk about that. And don't *ever* ask about his I.Q.
"Mom! Dad! I got excepted inta Providence College!"
"You sure did, Patches."
I see Patches Kennedy as more of a Carnival person wearing a funny hat and operating a kiddy ride but,... he comes from a wealthy family and has....."a degree" from "Providence College."
You see, the rich are... "different"... than you and me.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Racist - 3/13/2008 2:34:44 PM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Too late Annerin; didn't you know that slick willy was the 'first black president'?

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com


(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 80
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