RE: A man's voice should be his own.

RE: A man's voice should be his own. (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:15:36 PM)
Two things: first of all, saying that I despair at somebody's prejudice isn't an insult. It would have been an insult if I had called you names. You, on the other hand, called me ignorant, which is definitely an insult. Secondly, it quite suffices to reread your post in its integrity to confirm what I first suspected. I don't want to drag Bull's thread further down, so I suggest you take the last word if you want it, and that we leave it at that.

DomKen -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:16:15 PM)
For those who are keeping track, Saturday Iowa had their county conventions and California finalized their results. Obama gained a net 13 pledged delegates over previous reports. If Edwards 6 Iowa delegates split the way I read the rules that will result in another 2 net delegates for Obama. Which puts the pledged delegate count at Obama 1404 HRC 1249 with 2024 needed to clinch the nomination.

slvemike4u -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:19:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth One of these subjects raised was the "quality gap between white and black education". The solution is more government money, without any reference to the lack of discipline or the current state of those poor inter city schools being caused by the very students and people living in those areas. We must have listened to different speeches because he absolutely made reference to that very issue and the culpability the black community carries in this regard. quote: How about the impossible reconciliation of the US being "irrevocably linked" to its past of slavery yet representing change? Something is either "irrevocable" or can change. It can't be both. That's not what he said. I seriously think you should review the speech because you completely missed the context if that's the meaning you got. quote: I can't support Senator Obama. I could never vote for a racist regardless of his color. You're, of course, entitled to your opinion. I don't think the Senator is a racist and haven't seen one shred of evidence which would cause me to draw such a conclusion. I haven't decided to vote for him but I haven't decided not to vote for him either. My vote is still up for grabs (not for McCain though.. that's a no for me) and, like Bull, I'll be watching closely. Celeste

DomKen -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:19:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 ~Popeye For President ~ Certainly not: he just made some lewd comments at me on another thread, so who knows who he'll hit on when he's elected [:D] ? If I say exactly who I'll hit on once elected can I have your endorsement?

celticlord2112 -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:20:43 PM)
That's a nice trick. Make the original actors (Wright and Hagee) seem equally obnoxious by expecting equal responses from the political candidates. Doesn't wash though. Until consensus is reached on the relative distaste of Wright and Hagee's respective remarks, any comparison between McCain and Obama is futile. Beyond saying that all divisive rhetoric has no place in political discourse, there is no comparison to make. I'm not ignoring your request; I'm rejecting it. And, so as not to completely hijack this thread, until Obama cuts ties with a racist church and its racist pastor, he is not suited to be my President. He made a marvelous speech, but, without actions to back it up, contrary to how he wishes it were, his words don't matter. Obama's actions make a mockery of his speech. Damn shame, too--it's a nice speech.

kittinSol -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:24:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen If I say exactly who I'll hit on once elected can I have your endorsement? It wouldn't be worth very much, but I'd be glad to.

Mercnbeth -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:26:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee quote: You identify a call for equal treatment as prejudice. Are you intelligent enough to appreciate the irony of that position? How is a call for a blind application process prejudice? How is identifying the law of the land and how it is perceived prejudice? This would require equal footing out of the gate to erradicate or negate prejudice, which we are moving towards, but have not achieved as of yet, it seems to me. [Edited for clarity] subtee, The individuals come from the same communities the same, in many cases, public schools. This position must be in-line with Senator Obama's reference to "irrevocable". As I believed when I heard him say it, it creates an expectation of failure and futility. Arguing against that is prejudicial, yet perpetuating racist programs is fair? On one side it generates resentment on the other entitlement. Wow! What a wonderful environment to ensure another few generations of people wanting to attend Reverend Wright type services and recruits to the KKK. President Bush and his Illuminati friends stayed up late at Yale coming up with that divisive plan. But it takes a naive citizenry to keep the torches of prejudice burning bright.

DomKen -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:27:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen If I say exactly who I'll hit on once elected can I have your endorsement? It wouldn't be worth very much, but I'd be glad to. Every little bit counts. And really after the last 16 years who wouldn't rather have an inveterate skirt chaser over a man who thinks god wants him to start wars?

slvemike4u -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:31:50 PM)
Obviously i still need some help with the quote function.My intention was to highlight the quote "I could never vote for a racist regardless of his color" How can you be sure ,not all racist wear white robes or preachers vestment's .

subtee -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:32:28 PM)
quote: The individuals come from the same communities the same, in many cases, public schools. I'm sorry, who?

kittinSol -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:32:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Every little bit counts. And really after the last 16 years who wouldn't rather have an inveterate skirt chaser over a man who thinks god wants him to start wars? Well, I'd rather the American people elected Obama - I think he has upheld high standards of dignity so far, considering the shower of shit that has been thrown in his path. I liked Bull's premise for this thread. A man's voice should be his own, and I know I've harped on about this enough, but I'll say it again anyway: who cares what Obama's pastor said? It's irrelevant to his politics. And Obama just made a clear enough statement about it, which ought to satisfy his most strident critics. But many want the mud slinging to continue... I guess it covers their hidden agendas nicely [:(] .

Mercnbeth -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:36:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Two things: first of all, saying that I despair at somebody's prejudice isn't an insult. It would have been an insult if I had called you names. You, on the other hand, called me ignorant, which is definitely an insult. Secondly, it quite suffices to reread your post in its integrity to confirm what I first suspected. I don't want to drag Bull's thread further down, so I suggest you take the last word if you want it, and that we leave it at that. Calling me prejudice is an insult. You being ignorant of the facts regarding how AA programs are used in the world is obvious, and confirmed by your lack of response. I find no importance in having the last word. Rather, I'd prefer you to back up your position that the statement was inaccurate or based upon racial prejudice. If you stopped laughing from the original post, enlighten us all with your wisdom how a AA/EEO program giving prejudicial preference and priority to any group is not inherently prejudicial; while a blind application process where the race/gender of the candidate isn't considered, is prejudicial. quote: "I could never vote for a racist regardless of his color" How can you be sure ,not all racist wear white robes or preachers vestment's . Good point! I'll amend my statement to say; "I could never vote for a KNOWN racist regardless of his/HER color". quote: I'm sorry, who? subtee, The "who" was a reference to a community I was very familiar, the NYC, and NJ community that lived. I developed my stance toward AA/EEO when a man I hired and promoted at the Bank, who happened to be Black, came to me and asked me if he got the job because I needed AA/EEO 'points'. YES - Corporations give and require supervisors to maintain a certain 'score' for their employees based upon race. Depending on the size, and business, I think the Corporation has a requirement to report the score to the government. I laughed at him but it resulted in a serious, 3 hour while commuting, conversation. I learned that a Black person has to deal with being considered only there to fill a quota. This man had a better education than me, better training; yet he had to ask. I thought that sucked! I was proud to have him on my staff and said to him at the time, that I expected to be working for him someday. Well, we both left the Bank during the last Banking crash of the late '80's; however, we still keep in touch. Turns out we stayed in the industry and we both run our own companies. The point is, those prejudices will never be eliminated until those programs are gone. Why should he have doubted himself? Why should his employees, at the time, be able to consider the thought that he was a 'point' on some higher supervisor's AA/EEO scorecard? I think those laws are huge boulders in the way of that final step of progress you seek.

philosophy -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:46:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 That's a nice trick. Make the original actors (Wright and Hagee) seem equally obnoxious by expecting equal responses from the political candidates. ....well, obviously......remember, this thread is about the politicians, not their spiritual advisors. quote: Doesn't wash though. Until consensus is reached on the relative distaste of Wright and Hagee's respective remarks, any comparison between McCain and Obama is futile. .....as it stands, virtually the only one not accepting the consensus is you. Every other poster finds Hagee's remarks far more distasteful. As for comparing the two politicians.......again, thats the point. quote: Beyond saying that all divisive rhetoric has no place in political discourse, there is no comparison to make. I'm not ignoring your request; I'm rejecting it. .....of course there's a comparison. Every election is essentially an exercise in comparison. your rejection of my call to analyse McCains response as rigorously as you do Obama's merely makes you a liar. May i point you back to your own post number 61. You are not holding everyone to the same standard. quote: And, so as not to completely hijack this thread, until Obama cuts ties with a racist church and its racist pastor, he is not suited to be my President. He made a marvelous speech, but, without actions to back it up, contrary to how he wishes it were, his words don't matter. .....meaningless, until you're prepared to do what i have asked you time and time again. Contrast and compare the two candidates reactions. quote: Obama's actions make a mockery of his speech. Damn shame, too--it's a nice speech. ...only in your mind. Most everyone else is more struck by McCains deafening silence. To recap.....until you contrast and compare the two politicians responses you are running from the issue. Which is more qualified to lead the USA. By simply saying that Obama is dishonourable, while refusing to make any judgement at all about McCains response you merely paint yourself as intensely partisan. Which makes this nothing about the issues (which you refuse to discuss) and all about getting another republican in. Are you really McCains love child or something? (edited for typos)

celticlord2112 -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:49:54 PM)
snort

slvemike4u -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:55:00 PM)
Celticlord I'm not quite sure it's fair to paint the whole church as racist or to set a litmus test of cutting all ties with not just the pastor but now you want him to cut ties with the church,at that point the man will be suited to be "your president".If he had completely thrown church and pastor under the bus ,basically repudiating 20 years of his life How could anyone believe such a repudiation in the first place Not sure at this point if I will vote for him but after this speech i do know Rev Wrights comment's wont be the deciding factor.There is no denying it would be a nice change of pace to hear the State of the Union delivered with some oratorical skill ,as opposed to watching Pres.Bush mangle the english language

philosophy -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:55:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 snort .......let me guess. You aren't McCain's love child.....you're Hagee's!!! That would explain a few things.

kittinSol -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:57:53 PM)
I will suggest only one thing: that you ask whether some of the people on these boards who are directly concerned with "blind application processes" and affirmative action, would be willing to give you their opinion on these matters. You seem to think it harms individuals to have the opportunity to be treated equally: I think it's a great idea to ask these individuals what they think about it.

Mercnbeth -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 3:07:41 PM)
quote: You seem to think it harms individuals to have the opportunity to be treated equally: I think it's a great idea to ask these individuals what they think about it. Not at all, I think just the opposite. I think it harms individuals to NOT be treated equally. When anyone is given preference it harms both the person getting preference and the person who is effective negatively by that preference. AA/EEO programs give prejudicial preference - TODAY. Does that solve for yesterday, or 200 years worth of yesterdays? How many legislated prejudices of tomorrow should be endured before we approach the "irrevocable" threshold? How about a program insuring the hiring of the most qualified? Too much of a stretch to push that kind of equality? Is it your preference to have all people equal, but some, as thought of by AA/EEO MORE equal than others?

philosophy -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 3:13:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: You seem to think it harms individuals to have the opportunity to be treated equally: I think it's a great idea to ask these individuals what they think about it. Not at all, I think just the opposite. I think it harms individuals to NOT be treated equally. When anyone is given preference it harms both the person getting preference and the person who is effective negatively by that preference. AA/EEO programs give prejudicial preference - TODAY. Does that solve for yesterday, or 200 years worth of yesterdays? How many legislated prejudices of tomorrow should be endured before we approach the "irrevocable" threshold? How about a program insuring the hiring of the most qualified? Too much of a stretch to push that kind of equality? Is it your preference to have all people equal, but some, as thought of by AA/EEO MORE equal than others? ...imagine you have a car that seriously pulls to one side. So you compensate by continuously steering against it. This causes shoulder problems for you, so you have to stop steering that way....but thats not a solution to the original problem unless you also fix the car. It's all very well saying there ought to be strict equality of opportunity in the work place......but without removing all the other inequalities all you're doing is driving into a ditch. Affirmative action is a bad solution to a worse problem. Solve the original problem and then we can get rid of the bad solution.

popeye1250 -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 3:23:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 ~Popeye For President ~ Certainly not: he just made some lewd comments at me on another thread, so who knows who he'll hit on when he's elected [:D] ? Why only you KittinSol! Now grab my balls and hold on.

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