RE: A man's voice should be his own.

RE: A man's voice should be his own. (Full Version)

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celticlord2112 -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 1:24:45 PM)
quote: You hold him( Rev Wright) to a higher standard because he is entangled with a politician that you do not favor. People say shit all the time that they don't actually mean. Wrong. I hold Wright to the same standard I hold everybody. If you want to try the "just kidding" defense, apply it to Hagee first, then we can talk--but not before.

subtee -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 1:25:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 Mainly because it isn't "condemnatory". Not even a little bit. Judgemental, certainly, but not condemnatory. "God damn America": Wright is saying that God should send America in its entirety straight to Hell. That's what damnation is, a condemnation to hell, a curse placed upon the entirety of the American people. If Wright is one tenth the respected theologian Obama proclaims him to be, this he knows full well. Saying that a natural disaster is a punishment for sin is very Old Testament, judgemental in the extreme, and quite offensive to those of differing beliefs--but punishment is not curse, judgement is not condemnation. Spiritually, theologically, and linguistically, Hagee's statement is considerably milder in its ramifications. Do I agree with it? No. Do I find it half as troubling as "God damn America"? No. You've lost me here. Judgment is a recognized synonym of condemnation. Roget’s International Thesaurus: NOUN: CONDEMNATION, conviction, judgment, penalty, sentence; proscription, damnation; death warrant. attainder, attainture, attaintment. Definitions of condemnation on the Web: disapprobation: an expression of strong disapproval; pronouncing as wrong or morally culpable; "his uncompromising condemnation of racism" (law) the act of condemning (as land forfeited for public use) or judging to be unfit for use (as a food product or an unsafe building) execration: an appeal to some supernatural power to inflict evil on someone or some group the condition of being strongly disapproved of; "he deserved nothing but condemnation" conviction: (criminal law) a final judgment of guilty in a criminal case and the punishment that is imposed; "the conviction came as no surprise" wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn And doesn't everybody have a crazy uncle?

DomKen -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 1:25:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen ? Hagee saying god destroyed New Orleans as punishment is not condemnatory? How many people did god supposedly kill to appease his anger over a gay rights parade? Wright just said god should damn america, Hagee opines that god already has damned part of america. I find neither comment to be in good taste but I certainly find Hagee's to be many orders of magnitude worse. I don't. Why not? Mainly because it isn't "condemnatory". Not even a little bit. Judgemental, certainly, but not condemnatory. "God damn America": Wright is saying that God should send America in its entirety straight to Hell. That's what damnation is, a condemnation to hell, a curse placed upon the entirety of the American people. If Wright is one tenth the respected theologian Obama proclaims him to be, this he knows full well. Saying that a natural disaster is a punishment for sin is very Old Testament, judgemental in the extreme, and quite offensive to those of differing beliefs--but punishment is not curse, judgement is not condemnation. Spiritually, theologically, and linguistically, Hagee's statement is considerably milder in its ramifications. Do I agree with it? No. Do I find it half as troubling as "God damn America"? No. "God damn America" is what Wright said. I'm sure he does't think he can tell god what to do so this is basically a prayer or supplication. One that we can look around and see quite clearly wasn't answered. Which doesn't strike me as being nearly as awful as a right wing presidential candidate debate opening with a reworking of "God bless America" into an anti American song Hagee on the other hand said it was his belief that god destroyed New Orleans to stop a gay rights parade. I don't believe it but what if his followers do? If god is destroying whole cities over gay pride parades what should faithful christians due to save their communities? How man gays must be lynched to satisfy Hagee's god? So a man who thinks god did kill a bunch of people and wreck a city because of a gay parade is better than one who prayed for but didn't actually get something worse. No matter how I look at it Wright was spouting rhetoric but Hagee was trying to justify and glorify his own hatreds as well as justify more hatred and violence towards homosexuals which I find a whole lot worse.

philosophy -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 1:25:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 Mainly because it isn't "condemnatory". Not even a little bit. Judgemental, certainly, but not condemnatory. "God damn America": Wright is saying that God should send America in its entirety straight to Hell. That's what damnation is, a condemnation to hell, a curse placed upon the entirety of the American people. If Wright is one tenth the respected theologian Obama proclaims him to be, this he knows full well. Saying that a natural disaster is a punishment for sin is very Old Testament, judgemental in the extreme, and quite offensive to those of differing beliefs--but punishment is not curse, judgement is not condemnation. Spiritually, theologically, and linguistically, Hagee's statement is considerably milder in its ramifications. Do I agree with it? No. Do I find it half as troubling as "God damn America"? No. ......i think many here will not agree with your value judgement here. What wright said was not well put, but came from a perception that is arguable without being persecutary. What McCains guy said was......well, a good way to put it is cruel and nasty. This is not just about how nasty my spiritial advisor is compared to yours......its about responses. i have suggested time and time again that the way to judge this is not what was originally said...it is how that is responded too. You have made no comparison between McCain and Obama in this regard. Are you seriously suggesting that McCains mealy mouthed one liner is, in some way, more honourable than Obama making a whole damn speech on the subject? If so, i'm not sure there's anything left to say.......communication requires at least some common ground........ ...i have italicised the section in your last post that seems totally odd to me. Glorying in the death of gay people like Hagee did is worse than Wright taking a shot at US foreign policy and its spiritual consequences? Not in my universe. The day i dont find a gay-hating bigot as 'troubling' as an angry pastor is the day i think it'll be time to put me to bed with a shovel.

kittinSol -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 1:26:30 PM)
But in that case... any candidate who happens to be black, or a woman, or worse! A black woman, imagine that? Any such candidate will be suspected of being there because of some nefarious reason. So basically, we all go on as we always have, because one thing we know for sure: a white man will have succeeded at becoming a candidate for the presidency only because of his hard work and iron will. Right? WTF, people? Look around you for once, instead of up your arseholes. PS: I can't quite believe I'm still reading this kind of thing: quote: ORIGINAL Mercnbeth However there are victims of Black biased racial prejudice against whites. Whites, especially white men, are victimized daily, legally in the US. The process was legislated into power. Every time there is a hire of a black, Hispanic, or woman to any civil service job, from the mail service to police department who is given the job despite having a lower test score than a white male; it represents bias, prejudice, and creates a victim. Let me laugh quietly now...

celticlord2112 -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 1:29:05 PM)
quote: Glorying in the death of gay people like Hagee did is worse than Wright taking a shot at US foreign policy and its spiritual consequences? Not in my universe. The day i dont find a gay-hating bigot as 'troubling' as an angry pastor is the day i think it'll be time to put me to bed with a shovel. Study the meaning of the word "damn" and then review what both men said.

slvemike4u -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 1:29:26 PM)
Don't know if he got my vote or not with this speech,but he got my attention and my respect.He spoke truths and i thought spoke from the heart.Maybe the process can now move beyond race and we can hear something about the issues .Personally I'm not sure there's enough substance with his campaign,but after today's speech i wont be questioning the substance of the man

Mercnbeth -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 1:36:37 PM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL Mercnbeth However there are victims of Black biased racial prejudice against whites. Whites, especially white men, are victimized daily, legally in the US. The process was legislated into power. Every time there is a hire of a black, Hispanic, or woman to any civil service job, from the mail service to police department who is given the job despite having a lower test score than a white male; it represents bias, prejudice, and creates a victim. Let me laugh quietly now... You always laugh at a factual representation of reality? Where is the humor or the lie in the quote? And why the edit? Wasn't this part as humorous? quote: It harms Blacks much more than Whites because it makes it politically correct to see Blacks as unable to compete equally with Whites and in need of these racist programs. There are now two generations of American's who were brought up to see this as truth. Every one of these programs should all be eliminated, especially today, when it would be so easy for a computer can keep the race, gender, age, and any other birth assigned trait blind to the screening process.

Owner59 -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 1:37:53 PM)
He`s some`m else,isn`t he? It`s not all show and sizzle. There`s substance and courage there. He`s brilliant and has the makings of a great POTUS. Added: All this Rev.Wright stuff kinda dispels all the ugly "Obama is a Muslim" rumors/innuendo,at least.

philosophy -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 1:43:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Glorying in the death of gay people like Hagee did is worse than Wright taking a shot at US foreign policy and its spiritual consequences? Not in my universe. The day i dont find a gay-hating bigot as 'troubling' as an angry pastor is the day i think it'll be time to put me to bed with a shovel. Study the meaning of the word "damn" and then review what both men said. ....i know what the word 'damn' means and i've read Obama's speech and McCains one liner. i've also read what Wright and Hagee said. i stand by my earlier words. Hagee is a nasty mean spirited bigot, who used a natural disaster to justify his sick world view. Wright is an angry pastor, fed up with US foreign policy and the inability of some to see how that translates into how the US is seen around the world. May i suggest you, in turn, look up the words 'rhetoric', 'karma' and 'gay-hating bigot'. Then, maybe, you'll do what i asked ages ago....contrast and compare McCains and Obamas responses.

kittinSol -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 1:46:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth You always laugh at a factual representation of reality? Where is the humor or the lie in the quote? I laughed in despair, Merc, I laughed in despair... you don't even realise how great your prejudice is, and you take it for fact. The edit? Because I don't like quoting entire posts. It's bad manners, so I only quote what's relevant to the comment I'm about to make.

slvemike4u -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 1:48:50 PM)
Not yet convinced about the POTUS part but thought the comment about Rev Wright dispelling the Obama is a Muslim part hilarious.Actually had a serious conversation months ago with my younger sister after she recieved one of those E-Mails ,i couldn't believe that someone who i thought of as intelligent and reasonable was giving credence to that bullshit

BitaTruble -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 1:50:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth One of these subjects raised was the "quality gap between white and black education". The solution is more government money, without any reference to the lack of discipline or the current state of those poor inter city schools being caused by the very students and people living in those areas. We must have listened to different speeches because he absolutely made reference to that very issue and the culpability the black community carries in this regard. quote: How about the impossible reconciliation of the US being "irrevocably linked" to its past of slavery yet representing change? Something is either "irrevocable" or can change. It can't be both. That's not what he said. I seriously think you should review the speech because you completely missed the context if that's the meaning you got. quote: I can't support Senator Obama. I could never vote for a racist regardless of his color. You're, of course, entitled to your opinion. I don't think the Senator is a racist and haven't seen one shred of evidence which would cause me to draw such a conclusion. I haven't decided to vote for him but I haven't decided not to vote for him either. My vote is still up for grabs (not for McCain though.. that's a no for me) and, like Bull, I'll be watching closely. Celeste

xBullx -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 1:52:20 PM)
-fast reply- This is obvisouly a subject we need leadership on, I doubt however a single man can muster the proper bipartisan support. I want to remind you all, my intent for this thread wasn't to debate or solve the issues of racism. It's about hearing the voice of this one man and not the Preacher. Obama garnered my interest because of the content of his speech, I am willing to give him a chance to demonstrate the man he is. I kinda liked the character he displayed in this speech. Do me a favor though and keep this civil and on track; I'm sure XI is watching us. This could be a hot button topic. Live well, Bull

Owner59 -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 1:56:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Apparently the Democratic side of the election campaign is hoping to build a coalition of 'victims'. They want to create a majority who see themselves incapable of managing their own life. They want people who want to blame someone for their lack of advancement, lack of vision, lack of planning. They would never subscribe to "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your county." Instead they want all these victims to beg for the government to 'save them'. I don't see myself as a victim and if I ever did, the government would be the last source of 'help' I'd seek. My statement concerning Senator Clinton notwithstanding, it makes it a difficult party to support. Ahhh. The soothing voice of reason. I couldn't agree more. Being that I'm from Michigan, I can't see how anyone could support any candidate from a political party that snubs it's nose at an entire state simply because we moved our primary elections ahead of others. All we wanted was to be heard for the destruction our economy is suffering. For our efforts, we got "punished" and our delegates nullified. They tell us how much they want to change things for our benefit then pull the rug out from under us? As far as I'm concerned, this kind of bullshit should convince anyone that the Dems aren't worth voting for this time around. Note to rotten johnny: Rules are made to be kept, not broken. Michigan broke the rules and will be punished for it.(as well as Florida) Get over it. This me 1st ,me 1st selfishness is what got your state shit canned.Think twice next time. added: Perhaps you`d prefer a party that broke the rules when it was convenient.If so,vote McCain.

popeye1250 -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:03:06 PM)
Three hundred million people in this country and look who we end up with! Couldn't we just "hire" governors, congressmen, senators and presidents? P.S. lawyers should be disqualified from the above positions.

Owner59 -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:07:04 PM)
~Popeye For President ~

kittinSol -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:09:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 ~Popeye For President ~ Certainly not: he just made some lewd comments at me on another thread, so who knows who he'll hit on when he's elected [:D] ?

Mercnbeth -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:10:02 PM)
quote: Merc, I laughed in despair... you don't even realise how great your prejudice is, and you take it for fact. I will not accept insult from someone so ignorant and uninformed of the facts. So much so that you couldn't cite any opposition to the post. What is the basis of your despair? That the world in reality is not as you would like it to be? You identify a call for equal treatment as prejudice. Are you intelligent enough to appreciate the irony of that position? How is a call for a blind application process prejudice? How is identifying the law of the land and how it is perceived prejudice? Appreciating it is a fools mission to try an enlighten you, I'd expect no more that further insult.

subtee -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 2:15:19 PM)
quote: You identify a call for equal treatment as prejudice. Are you intelligent enough to appreciate the irony of that position? How is a call for a blind application process prejudice? How is identifying the law of the land and how it is perceived prejudice? This would require equal footing out of the gate to erradicate or negate prejudice, which we are moving towards, but have not achieved as of yet, it seems to me. [Edited for clarity]

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