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RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 3:21:41 AM   
lronitulstahp


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quote:

   Otherwise, it's useless to argue historical facts with someone who refuses to acknowledge them. 
Ironically enough, you gave the best advice concerning how to deal with you......no matter what anyone says, you aren't willing to see the forest for the trees.
quote:

What gets me hard is when I use pure, un-adulterated logic to win an argument and those who oppose my viewpoint have little left to fall back on besides personal insults or try to in some way demonstrate that I'm not what I claim. 
and that's probably the ONLY thing too...thus i'm sure the political rants shall continue.  Ya know, it's really unfair to punish EVERYBODY because you need to geet your rocks off like this....

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 301
RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 7:28:30 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

You need to read up on your history. I researched it well before I posted. They attacked us first, not the other way around. Do a little research to avoid looking foolish. I even PASTED the first "attack" in the war and as you can plainly read, it was them attacking us.
 
 
 
Smith:
Here is a copy of the battle report.  You will note that it clearly states that we attacked them not vice versa  (line 27 and 28 the bold part).
What we have here is a company of dragoons deep into Mexico attacking the Mexican army.  Please pay close attention to the part which describes how the POWs were treated.
You might consider taking your own advice on how to avoid looking foolish.
 
 
BATTLE REPORT
Captain William J. Hardee, at Matamoros, Mexico, to Brigadier-General Zachary Taylor, at camp opposite Matamoros. Dispatch communicating particulars of "Thornton Skirmish."
Matamoras, Mexico, April 26, 1846.
Sir: - It becomes my painful duty to inform you of the circumstances which led our being brought to this place as prisoners of war. Captain Thornton's command, consisting of fifty-two dragoons, left camp, as you know, at night on the 24th instant; it marched 15 miles and halted until daylight, when the march was again resumed. Captain Thornton's orders, as I understood them, were to ascertain if the enemy had crossed the river above our camp, and to reconnoitre his position and force. All his inquiries on the way tended to the conviction that the enemy had crossed in strength. About 23 miles from our camp our guide became so satisfied of this fact that he refused to go any further, and no entreaties on the part of Captain Thornton could shake his resolution. About three miles from this latter place we came to a large plantation bordering the river, and enclosed with a high chapparal fence, with some houses at its upper extremity. To these houses Captain Thornton endeavored, by entering the lower extremity, to approach; but failing to do so, he was compelled to pass round the fence, and entered the field by a pair of bars, the house being situated about 200 yards from the entrance. Into this plantation the whole command entered in single file, without any guard being placed in front, without any sentinel at the bars, or any other precaution being taken to prevent surprise. Captain Thornton was prepossessed with the idea that the Mexicans had not crossed; and if they had, that they would not fight. I had been placed in rear, and was therefore the last to enter. When I came up to the house I found the men scattered in every direction, hunting for some one with whom to communicate. At last an old man was found; and while Captain Thornton was talking with him, the cry of alarm was given, and the enemy were seen in numbers at the bars. Our gallant commander, immediately gave the command to charge, and himself led the advance; but it was too late; the enemy had secured the entrance, and it was impossible to force it. The officers and men did every thing that fearless intrepidity could accomplish; but the infantry had stationed themselves in the field on the right of the passage way, and the cavalry lined the exterior fence, and our retreat was hopelessly cut off. Seeing this, Captain Thornton turned to the right and skirted the interior of the fence, the command following him. During this time the enemy were shooting at us in every direction; and when the retreat commenced, our men were in a perfect state of disorder. I rode up to Captain Thornton and told him that our only hope of safety was in tearing down the fence: he gave the order, but could not stop his horse, nor would the men stop. It was useless, for by this time the enemy had gained our rear in great numbers. Foreseeing that the direction which Captain Thornton was pursuing would lead to the certain destruction of himself and men, without the possibility of resistance, I turned to the right and told the men to follow me. I made for the river, intending either to swim it or place myself in a position for defence. I found the bank too boggy to accomplish the former, and I therefore rallied the men, forming them in order of battle in the open field, and without the range of the infantry behind the fence. I counted twenty-five men and examined their arms, but almost every one had lost a sabre, a pistol, or carbine; nevertheless, the men were firm and disposed, if necessary, to fight to the last extremity. In five minutes from the time the first shot was fired, the field was surrounded by a numerous body of men. However, I determined to sell our lives as dearly as possible if I could not secure good treatment, and accordingly I went forward and arranged with an officer that I should deliver myself and men as prisoners of war, to be treated with all the consideration to which such unfortunates are entitled by the rules of civilized warfare. I was taken to General Torrejon, who by this time had his whole force collected in the field. I found that some prisoners had already been taken; which, together with those I had and those which were subsequently brought in, amounted to 45 men, exclusive of Lieutenant Kane and myself. Four were wounded. I know nothing certain of the fate of Captain Thornton and Lieutenant Mason: the latter I did not see after the fight commenced. I am convinced they both died bravely. The former I know was unhorsed, and killed, as I learn, in single combat, Romano Falcon. Lieutenant Mason's spurs were seen, after the fight, in possession of the enemy. The brave Sergeant Tredo fell in the first charge. Sergeant Smith was unhorsed and killed. The bodies of seven men were found, including, as I believe, the two officers above mentioned.
I was brought to Matamoras to-day about 4 o'clock, and I take pleasure in stating that since our surrender I and my brave companions in misfortune have been treated with uniform kindness and attention. It may soften the rigors of war for you to be informed fully of this fact. Lieutenant Kane and myself are living with General Ampudia: we lodge in his hotel, eat at his table, and his frank, agreeable manner and generous hospitality almost make us forget our captivity. General Arista received us in the most gracious manner; said that his nation had been regarded as barbarous, and that he wished to prove to us the contrary. Told Lieutenant Kane and myself that we should receive half pay, and our men should receive ample rations, and in lieu of it for to-day 25 cents a piece. On declining the boon on the part of Lieutenant Kane and myself, and a request that we might be permitted to send to camp for money, he said no; that he could not permit it; that he intended to supply all our wants himself. These promises have already been fulfilled in part.
I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
W. J. HARDEE,
Captain 2d Dragoons.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 3/31/2008 7:38:08 AM >

(in reply to Smith117)
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RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 10:26:55 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

The point is, if I'm in America, in an American city and state, I should be able to order my food without learning a second language.



..why?

......i mean, the US has no official language, there is no law that states what language you can order food in. i am not aware of any lingual communication statutes. What you seem to be arguing for is some kind of moral or ethical right to not learn another language. Forgive me if i misunderstand but on what principle do you base your assertion?
You see, it sounds to me as if you're proclaiming some kind of moral superiority of mono-lingualism......or maybe you're using the majority rules argument. Isn't that, in essence, unamerican?

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 303
RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 10:38:15 AM   
domahpet


Posts: 1505
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no, the majority definetly rules.
foolish or not, its true.

_____________________________

Zeedaddys
~DJ domahpet~
*Love is giving someone the power to break your heart, but trusting them not to*

*crystal*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLI12uN6k5k

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 10:48:37 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domahpet

no, the majority definetly rules.
foolish or not, its true.


........for a given value of true, certainly. i would suggest though that there are many laws in the US and other countries that protect the rights of minorities. If we accept the principle that 51% of a population can control all aspects of the lives of 49% then we are not living in a democracy, it is an electoral tyranny, and if we do have the misfortune to live in such a place then our duty to future generations becomes clear. Revolution.

(in reply to domahpet)
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RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 10:57:07 AM   
domahpet


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yep, youre right. i agree totaly.
we're almost doomed by that alone.

_____________________________

Zeedaddys
~DJ domahpet~
*Love is giving someone the power to break your heart, but trusting them not to*

*crystal*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLI12uN6k5k

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RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 11:07:42 AM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domahpet

yep, youre right. i agree totaly.
we're almost doomed by that alone.


Sod defeatism. Agitate, educate, organise.

(in reply to domahpet)
Profile   Post #: 307
RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 3:24:06 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


How cute that your example proves my case. Thank you.

From reading that report, I gather that it was indeed a mexican attack. They laid a trap and the order to charge was to charge the exit as you can plainly see by the line following what you bolded:

"..but it was too late; the enemy had secured the entrance, and it was impossible to force it. The officers and men did every thing that fearless intrepidity could accomplish; but the infantry had stationed themselves in the field on the right of the passage way, and the cavalry lined the exterior fence, and our retreat was hopelessly cut off..."

That suggests to me that it was a trap that our boys walked into and, failing the ability to fall back, had to fight, and were subsequently captured by a hostile enemy. They didn't enter the camp in a hostile fashion, and sought to find someone with whom they could speak. It was when they found this person that an "alarm was sounded" and the enemy troops surrounded their position.

That is a CLASSIC trap. Thank you so much for proving my case.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 3:26:12 PM   
Smith117


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

It is interesting that in the "those damn illegals thread you rant on and on about the law and against "what is right"  now you argue the opposite.  Why the inconsistency?


And where have I been inconsistent?

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 309
RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 3:27:30 PM   
Smith117


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

Ironically enough, you gave the best advice concerning how to deal with you......no matter what anyone says, you aren't willing to see the forest for the trees.


That's funny, I was thinking the same about Thompson. As his post after this one just proves my case, I don't see where he has a leg on which to stand.



(in reply to lronitulstahp)
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RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 3:35:06 PM   
thompsonx


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Smith:
You keep ignoring the fact that they were in Mexico.
The Mexicans had not made any offensive moves.
The battle report says nothing of a "trap".
The officer in charge needed only to say...Hey dude we been looking for you ....whaddup?
Instead with a force of 70 men he attacks a force of 2000.
It would seem to most reasonable observers that he was instructed to create an incident.
It would seem that your powers of clairvoyance and spin could make anything be what ever you wish it to be.
thompson

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 311
RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 3:36:30 PM   
Smith117


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

..why?

......i mean, the US has no official language, there is no law that states what language you can order food in. i am not aware of any lingual communication statutes.


Because, while you think there is no official language, there is an unofficial, official language. That is evident from the repeated bills put for a vote to make english the national language. The only reason they fail is because the racist card comes out everytime they are put forth and no policital figure, save those who wish no longer to be in office, will let themselves be saddled with the racist label.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

What you seem to be arguing for is some kind of moral or ethical right to not learn another language. Forgive me if i misunderstand but on what principle do you base your assertion?
You see, it sounds to me as if you're proclaiming some kind of moral superiority of mono-lingualism......or maybe you're using the majority rules argument. Isn't that, in essence, unamerican?


If that's what you get out of my posts, you need to re-read them. I am ALL FOR learning more than one language. I am NOT, however, for letting those in this country illegally dictate what language I am to learn.

It becomes a bit of a quandry, you see. For we ALL know that mexicans are not the only ones illegally entering the US. There are many enthnic backgrounds that come here without proper documentation.

Who then do we bow to and let tell us what language to speak? Making teachers speak both english and spanish may cover the mexican illegals. But what of chinese? What of pakistani? What of german, french, irish, italian, etc ,etc ,etc. Shall I go on?

Making people learn spanish assumes that it is our "official second language," where people like to claim we have no "first official language."
What about the struggling lebonese immigrant who speaks neither english or spanish? Why's he get left out? Or the young, hard-working couple from Nigeria? Who communicates with them if they speak neither english or spanish? How many languages are we going to 'demand' that our citizens learn in order to keep up with those who enter this country illegally?

Or, the simpler option: we expect those entering, legally or illegally, to speak one, common, language. Chinese might be the widest-spoken language in the world, but english is right behind it. No excuse whatsoever for an immigrant to this country to not learn it.

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 3:40:22 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:


I was brought to Matamoras to-day about 4 o'clock, and I take pleasure in stating that since our surrender I and my brave companions in misfortune have been treated with uniform kindness and attention. It may soften the rigors of war for you to be informed fully of this fact. Lieutenant Kane and myself are living with General Ampudia: we lodge in his hotel, eat at his table, and his frank, agreeable manner and generous hospitality almost make us forget our captivity. General Arista received us in the most gracious manner; said that his nation had been regarded as barbarous, and that he wished to prove to us the contrary. Told Lieutenant Kane and myself that we should receive half pay, and our men should receive ample rations, and in lieu of it for to-day 25 cents a piece. On declining the boon on the part of Lieutenant Kane and myself, and a request that we might be permitted to send to camp for money, he said no; that he could not permit it; that he intended to supply all our wants himself. These promises have already been fulfilled in part.
I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
W. J. HARDEE,
Captain 2d Dragoons.


They were POW's so it has to be taken in context but this is a pretty amazing passage to read and in stark contrast with how prisoners are treated in modern warfare. 

_____________________________

Memory Lane...been there done that.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 3:49:25 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

It is interesting that in the "those damn illegals thread you rant on and on about the law and against "what is right"  now you argue the opposite.  Why the inconsistency?


And where have I been inconsistent?



Funny, I don't recall saying it was the law. I did say it wasn't right though.
It is interesting that in the "those damn illegals thread you rant on and on about the law and against "what is right"  now you argue the opposite.  Why the inconsistency?

Don't you find it more than a little disingenuous to quote out of context?
Above please find your statement and my question.
In the other thread you argued that what is right is not the law.
Here you argue that what is right is how it should be  even if it is not the law.  This is what many would consider to be inconsistent,illogical and irrational.  If you feel otherwise...well there is no law against being irrational,illogical or inconsistent.
thompson
 

(in reply to Smith117)
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RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 4:27:15 PM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

Because, while you think there is no official language, there is an unofficial, official language.
ROFLMAO....yer funnin' me right???  What exactly is an unofficial official language? 


That is evident from the repeated bills put for a vote to make english the national language. The only reason they fail is because the racist card comes out everytime they are put forth and no policital figure, save those who wish no longer to be in office, will let themselves be saddled with the racist label.
Are you really suggesting that there have been no overtly racist politicians in America?  We have had over two hundred years to make an official language.  If you were to read the speeches of Clay and Calhoun you would find that they speak directly to this question.
You have labeled yourself as prejudice and seem proud of it.  So too have many in the senate and the house.  So why were they elected and reelected and the English only position was not presented.
Texas seems to be the only state where Spanish is being taught manditorily...if you don't like it why don't you move or vote against it. 


If that's what you get out of my posts, you need to re-read them. I am ALL FOR learning more than one language. I am NOT, however, for letting those in this country illegally dictate what language I am to learn.
How exactly did the illegals manage to dictate this?  If they can't dictate higher wages or better living conditions how did they manage this? They don't hold public office.  They can't vote.  How did they do this? 

It becomes a bit of a quandry, you see. For we ALL know that mexicans are not the only ones illegally entering the US. There are many enthnic backgrounds that come here without proper documentation.

Who then do we bow to and let tell us what language to speak? Making teachers speak both english and spanish may cover the mexican illegals. But what of chinese? What of pakistani? What of german, french, irish, italian, etc ,etc ,etc. Shall I go on?
How did these Chinese,Pakistani,German,French,Irish,Italian etc. get here?  "I smell a red herring here"

Making people learn spanish assumes that it is our "official second language,"
Really????Just how is that?  If we do not have an official language how can we have an official second language?
 
where people like to claim we have no "first official language."
What about the struggling lebonese immigrant who speaks neither english or spanish?
What about him?


Why's he get left out? Or the young, hard-working couple from Nigeria? Who communicates with them if they speak neither english or spanish? How many languages are we going to 'demand' that our citizens learn in order to keep up with those who enter this country illegally?
Are you saying that there are no U.S. citizens who only speak Spanish?  How would you know this?  You cannot possible know everyone in the U.S.

Or, the simpler option: we expect those entering, legally or illegally, to speak one, common, language.
It is clear that you do but isn't it more than a little presumptuous to speak for everyone?
 
Chinese might be the widest-spoken language in the world, but english is right behind it.

Actually less than half as many people speak English as speak Chinese.  That is hardly "right behind"  That is second place by a couple of laps.
While the number of people who speak Spanish is about 80% of those who speak English.

No excuse whatsoever for an immigrant to this country to not learn it.
Since there is no official language in this country and we are all forced to learn to speak English in the school system...how is that any different than being forced to learn Spanish. 
As far as you have been able to establish only Texas has that law and it was Dubya who did it.
Did you vote for him?





< Message edited by thompsonx -- 3/31/2008 4:34:43 PM >

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 315
RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 6:12:18 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Smith:
You keep ignoring the fact that they were in Mexico.
The Mexicans had not made any offensive moves.
The battle report says nothing of a "trap".
The officer in charge needed only to say...Hey dude we been looking for you ....whaddup?
Instead with a force of 70 men he attacks a force of 2000.
It would seem to most reasonable observers that he was instructed to create an incident.
It would seem that your powers of clairvoyance and spin could make anything be what ever you wish it to be.
thompson


Spin it all you like. The proof is in the report YOU posted. Your refusal to read it isn't my problem. It plainly says they saw nothing to indicate a military presence and then were cut off from escape when the alaram was raised. Look up "trap" in the dictionary and tell me what you find.

By the way that fact you keep repeating about it being "in" mexico....

"On April 25, 1846, a clash occurred between Mexican and American troops on soil claimed by both countries."

To the victor goes the spoils.....and the writing of the history books. If both countries claimed the territory, your agument is void. Sorry, try again.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 6:16:30 PM   
Smith117


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
It is interesting that in the "those damn illegals thread you rant on and on about the law and against "what is right"  now you argue the opposite.  Why the inconsistency?


Alrighty then.....if you're not going to show us what you took as inconsistent, I guess I won't answer your question, since repeating the same question does nothing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Don't you find it more than a little disingenuous to quote out of context?
Above please find your statement and my question.
In the other thread you argued that what is right is not the law.
Here you argue that what is right is how it should be  even if it is not the law.  This is what many would consider to be inconsistent,illogical and irrational.  If you feel otherwise...well there is no law against being irrational,illogical or inconsistent.
thompson


Where did I ever say that what was right wasn't the law? Again, show me the line, or I can't help you, nor am I inclined to.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 317
RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 6:37:14 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ROFLMAO....yer funnin' me right???  What exactly is an unofficial official language? 


I believe I covered this in my post. Feel free to re-read it at your leisure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Are you really suggesting that there have been no overtly racist politicians in America?  We have had over two hundred years to make an official language.  If you were to read the speeches of Clay and Calhoun you would find that they speak directly to this question.


I've suggested nothing of the kind. However, illegal immigration wasn't seen as the same problem back then as it is today. NOW politicians are trying to make english our language and every time they do, they're called racist. It matters not what politicians of the past were, I'm talking in the here and now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
You have labeled yourself as prejudice and seem proud of it.  So too have many in the senate and the house.  So why were they elected and reelected and the English only position was not presented.
Texas seems to be the only state where Spanish is being taught manditorily...if you don't like it why don't you move or vote against it. 


Actually you fail here too. I never "labelled" myself as prejudiced, nor did I say I was proud of it. I said everyone has their own, and I am honest about mine.

As for voting against the spanish mandate, last I heard it's not up for a vote. It's one of those 'subversive' things going on, such as companies preferring people who speak spanish, the PD hiring cops from Puerto Rico, etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

How exactly did the illegals manage to dictate this?  If they can't dictate higher wages or better living conditions how did they manage this? They don't hold public office.  They can't vote.  How did they do this?


If this is a question you actually need answered, you might be too far gone than I originally thought. How did they do this? How did they now? It's done. Their refusal to learn our language has forced either A) people to learn their language to conduct business with them or B) the hiring of translators (at taxpayer expense I might add) to help them understand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
How did these Chinese,Pakistani,German,French,Irish,Italian etc. get here?  "I smell a red herring here"


This question has no relevance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Really????Just how is that?  If we do not have an official language how can we have an official second language?


This is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make. If we don't have an official language, we certainly don't have 2. Therefore I should not have to learn spanish to communicate with them, they should learn my language to communicate with me. We're in America, not Mexico. If I went there, I'd learn spanish. If they come here, I am not learning spanish, it's up to them to learn english. Otherwise, you have all give from us and nothing from them. Why is it if we go there, we have to learn spanish, but not the other way around? What sense does that make?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
What about him?


Exactly my question. Do you have an answer for him? No schools around here teach pakistani that I am aware of, but they're made to teach spanish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Are you saying that there are no U.S. citizens who only speak Spanish?  How would you know this?  You cannot possible know everyone in the U.S.


I've said nothing of the kind. Though I do love the whole "you can't possibly know everyone in the US" argument. It's as funny as it is ridiculous. It first assumes I have indicated that I know everyone, which is just hilarious, and then it accuses me of not knowing everyone, which I never indicated I did.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
It is clear that you do but isn't it more than a little presumptuous to speak for everyone?


You misunderstand....again. I don't speak for everyone. I am in the group that feels the same way I do. Those politicians who keep trying to pass the bill; the restaurant owners who refused to serve those who can't order in english, the protesters on the news who cry out that they should learn the language.  There's lots of us. Ask around, you'll be surprised.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Actually less than half as many people speak English as speak Chinese.  That is hardly "right behind"  That is second place by a couple of laps.
While the number of people who speak Spanish is about 80% of those who speak English.


Now we get to the part where you nitpick what I said because you have no answer. Behind by 1 person or behind by 100,000, second place is still second place. Spanish ain't second place. English is. Spanish is 4th, behind Hindistani.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Since there is no official language in this country and we are all forced to learn to speak English in the school system...how is that any different than being forced to learn Spanish. 

Because more people in this country, its surrounding countries and its allies speak ENGLISH. Japenese do it, that's how they deal with us. Canadians do it (some anyway), Puerto Ricans can do it, even CUBANS can do it, Russia, France, Germany, Greece, Vietnam, etc, etc, etc. These our our allies, and they speak a common language in order to deal with us.......ENGLISH. We don't require all of our diplomats to be multilingual. Sure, perhaps the diplomats in specific counties learn the local language, but when you see speeches on CNN, when you see them at the UN....they....speak.....ENGLISH. Why should mexicans who intend to be in this country be any different?

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 318
RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 6:58:15 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
Spin it all you like. The proof is in the report YOU posted. Your refusal to read it isn't my problem. It plainly says they saw nothing to indicate a military presence and then were cut off from escape when the alaram was raised. Look up "trap" in the dictionary and tell me what you find.
What would they be escaping from?  If they were on U.S. soil why the attack.  If they were on Mexican soil why attack when so seriously outnumbered?

By the way that fact you keep repeating about it being "in" mexico....
I am sure I pointed out earlier in this discussion how and why they were in Mexico.  I am sorry if I was unclear.
Santa Ana the president and commander and chief of Mexico was captured by Sam Houston.  Sam Houston coerced a cession from Santa Ana of the state of Texas which was part of Mexico.  That is the Texas claim on the land.
If dubya were to be captured by the Iraqis on one of his trips to Iraq and they were to coerce his signature on a document ceding the U.S, to Iraq would it be a valid document?
I am sure you have studied high school civics and are quite aware that the senate must vote on all treaties.  The same is true of Mexico.  So the facts are that the cession by Santa Ana is no more valid than one by dubya would be. 

"On April 25, 1846, a clash occurred between Mexican and American troops on soil claimed by both countries."

To the victor goes the spoils.....and the writing of the history books. If both countries claimed the territory, your agument is void. Sorry, try again.

So it would appear that you are agreeing with me that if you can take it and hold it it is yours.  Legality has nothing to do with it.  Which has been my point all along.  The U.S. took Texas and when Mexico whined about it the U.S, took half of Mexico.
That is called international thugary...or more politely Imperialism.  It seems from your post that you approve.  If you approve there is no need for you to obfuscate and try to justify anything...might makes right.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 3/31/2008 7:07:24 PM >

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 319
RE: Learn english or go to jail - 3/31/2008 7:20:10 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
Actually, I recall a thread on tampons, on international women's day, on the Harvard gym mini-scandal and a plethora of other threads, where you came across as rather bigotted - perhaps you don't mean to be quite so obstinate, but you really do seem to argue for nothing else than for the sake of it.

As for arrogance, you once erroneously attempted to correct my French - when there had been no mistake made. Me, a native Frog!



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(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 320
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