RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/6/2008 3:51:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Now..... do you feel the Muslim population has done enough to denounce the acts of the terrorists? If so, why don't we seem to see it as much as might be helpful? If it's the media and/or government holding things up, why would they do so?



Give me one good reason why they should: how are the average Muslim guy or gurl in any way responsible for terrorist acts?! You automatically make them related to terrorists because of their religion; it's short-sighted, at best.

You expect the entire Muslim population of the planet to speak in unison against something they have no control over. Did you expect the Catholics of the world to denounce the IRA? Do you see how terrorist groups are motivated by politics before religion?

Western governments have a vested interest in demonising Islam, if not too openly, at least subtly and perniciously: it's the 'common enemy' that has justified a senseless war and a demagogy that has no other aim than to keep people in power.




TheHeretic -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/6/2008 4:15:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

They are incomparable.



      Indeed they are.  Far more people have died horribly in communist regimes.  Perhaps you should use a more generic term for your jokes.  'Totalitarian' perhaps?

      As to the desecrated graves, that's an ugly form of expression, deep into the gray area where free speech turns into criminal acts.  Very angry stuff.  Did this occur in an area of France where the riots were bad last year?




Rule -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/6/2008 4:22:39 PM)

FR
 
The graves may perchance have been damaged by the French secret service. Western powers are continually raising the temperature of the kettle, with the purpose to eventually cause a carefully orchestrated explosion of the islamic population in revolt to the insults and indignities perpetrated against them.




kittinSol -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/6/2008 4:31:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

They are incomparable.



     Indeed they are.  Far more people have died horribly in communist regimes.  Perhaps you should use a more generic term for your jokes.  'Totalitarian' perhaps?



No. It doesn't work, for some reason... you see, nazi 'thought' is based on the premise of racial superiority... communism isn't. While both regimes can be described as totalitarian, one is definitely anchored in racism, while the other isn't. Communism remains an ideal which was never achieved by any society; Nazism was made into a reality. 

quote:



     As to the desecrated graves, that's an ugly form of expression, deep into the gray area where free speech turns into criminal acts.  Very angry stuff.  Did this occur in an area of France where the riots were bad last year?



Non. The desecration occurred in a large military cemetary in the north of France, at Notre-Dame de Lorrette , a pretty quiet, rural area. There are roughly 40,000 tombs there, dating from 1915.  




Level -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/6/2008 4:51:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Give me one good reason why they should: how are the average Muslim guy or gurl in any way responsible for terrorist acts?! You automatically make them related to terrorists because of their religion; it's short-sighted, at best.


If the problem of the Muslim people being misjudged is to be overcome, everybody in the boat better row. If decent people the world over are to overcome mindless violence, no matter where it comes from, then they need to make their voices heard.
 
If the Muslims speak up, it doesn't have anything to do with linking them to terrorists; it shows those ignorant about Islam that it isn't just about violence, and hatred. 

quote:

You expect the entire Muslim population of the planet to speak in unison against something they have no control over. 


I expect people of good character to speak out against horror, yes.

quote:

Did you expect the Catholics of the world to denounce the IRA?


YES. [8|] And southerners to denounce the Klan. And Christians to denounce the ultra-right goofs. And for ravers to denounce the DJs. Etc.

quote:

Do you see how terrorist groups are motivated by politics before religion?


To a large extent, of course. Motivated by power, more aptly.

quote:

Western governments have a vested interest in demonising Islam, if not too openly, at least subtly and perniciously: it's the 'common enemy' that has justified a senseless war and a demagogy that has no other aim than to keep people in power.


This does happen, no doubt.




TheHeretic -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/6/2008 10:53:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

While both regimes can be described as totalitarian, one is definitely anchored in racism, while the other isn't.   



          Shallow.  Both require a scapegoat for hatred. 


          Why do you think communism has failed every time it has been attempted?  An ideal?




hisannabelle -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/7/2008 12:24:54 AM)

fast reply.

these are posts i made on another website but insha'allah they will also be useful for those here in seeing a small amount of muslim reactions to terrorism gathered in one place. i'd also like to point out that...well...what else can we DO? other than live our lives? i mean, for every single muslim in the world to try to make their voice heard in western media at every opportunity is almost entirely prohibitive. we have jobs, school, immigration, bills, and everything else to worry about. on top of that, we have to worry upon walking out of our door, because (at least for covering women) we face quite a bit of difficulty even going to the grocery store often enough. what else can i do? should i carry a sign that says, "i denounce terrorism," every time i leave the house? i mean, every sheikh whose teachings i personally read, listen to, and follow is listed among the links i posted below denouncing terrorism. what else can we do?

level, i noticed you list buddhism among things you love. as a buddhist, i never spent my entire existence apologizing for sinhalese genocide of tamils, or for the deaths caused in the terror of the karmapa controversy, or for any other violence in the name of buddhism. i don't know any buddhists who are expected to expend all extra energy they have trying to get the "moderate voice" heard on tv (and, being involved in buddhist leadership here and maintaining ties to that community, as well as studying buddhism academically, i know a LOT of buddhists). how is that different?

quote:

Insha'Allah this will be of some help to your concern about Muslim responses to terrorism. I looked for specific links to Muslim responses to terrorism, particularly those of scholars, leaders, and organizations. There were too many to list, but many of them can be found here:
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Another listing can be found here:
http://www.unc.edu/%7Ekurzman/terror.htm

This includes responses from well-respected Islamic scholars with a huge following, such as Shaykhs Hamza Yusuf and Yusuf al-Qaradawi and Iran's Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Scholars have even declared fatwas against terrorism. This letter: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/h..._07_letter.pdf is from 130 well-respected Islamic scholars condemning terrorism. It also lists links to information about organizations of Muslims in America, Canada, and the UK who condemn terrorism.

They are as public as humanly possible. Most of those links are to articles from major news sources like the BBC, the Washington Post, Associated Press, Agence France Presse; the letter I posted was sent to a huge list of major Christian religious leaders, including the Pope. Many of the messages have been projected on Muslim and Arab news sources, opening them up to criticism from the "many" you seem to think agree with terrorists. A huge number of the messages are from high government leaders, including heads of countries, in Chad, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, and Egypt. How much more public can you get? The fact is, the media reports about Islamic terrorism because Muslims speaking out against terrorism does not make money.

One of the interesting points I'd like to make on behalf of non-Wahhabist Muslims is that we are in the same boat you are. Aside from the fact that many of us (like myself) are Americans, born of American non-Muslim families, and members of other Western nations, we are also considered "unbelievers" by pretty much every terrorist group. These radical groups denounce Shi'a and Sufi Muslims as unbelievers, and all Sunni Muslims who do not agree with them, and call for our destruction as well.




meatcleaver -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/7/2008 1:17:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Haven't the French got form for this sort of carry on? Wasn't there a problem with Jewish graves not so long back?


The Israeli conflict has long been contributing to anti-semitisc attacks and the vandalising of Jewish graves by Arabs in France. However, it has long been accepted by international humanitarian organisations, these are more to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict than historical European anti-semiticism.

It is not just the French that have form on this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4095762.stm and this is probably historical European anti-semiticism.




Rule -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/7/2008 1:49:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle
what else can we DO?

During the past centuries Satan has conducted war and genocides against many religions, such as the buddhists in Mongolia, the christian Armenians in Turkey and many others. Now islam is being targeted by Satan as next on their list. There is no defense possible. Satan has the technology, the power and his evil purpose, and his minions have infiltrated all religions.

What to do? How about worshipping Allah, as Mohamed did, instead of the God of Mercy of the jews? How about rejecting the traditions and embrace, as Mohamed did, the change of reason? How about rejecting the book Koran that Mohamed did not write?

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle
the letter I posted was sent to a huge list of major Christian religious leaders, including the Pope.

Satan is ever power hungry. The Pope is not a christian; he is one of the incarnations of Satan.




Level -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/7/2008 4:07:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

fast reply.

these are posts i made on another website but insha'allah they will also be useful for those here in seeing a small amount of muslim reactions to terrorism gathered in one place. i'd also like to point out that...well...what else can we DO? other than live our lives? i mean, for every single muslim in the world to try to make their voice heard in western media at every opportunity is almost entirely prohibitive. we have jobs, school, immigration, bills, and everything else to worry about. on top of that, we have to worry upon walking out of our door, because (at least for covering women) we face quite a bit of difficulty even going to the grocery store often enough. what else can i do? should i carry a sign that says, "i denounce terrorism," every time i leave the house? i mean, every sheikh whose teachings i personally read, listen to, and follow is listed among the links i posted below denouncing terrorism. what else can we do?


Good morning, annabelle. One can only do so much, I agree, but is everyone doing what they can, including non-Muslims?

quote:

level, i noticed you list buddhism among things you love. as a buddhist, i never spent my entire existence apologizing for sinhalese genocide of tamils, or for the deaths caused in the terror of the karmapa controversy, or for any other violence in the name of buddhism. i don't know any buddhists who are expected to expend all extra energy they have trying to get the "moderate voice" heard on tv (and, being involved in buddhist leadership here and maintaining ties to that community, as well as studying buddhism academically, i know a LOT of buddhists). how is that different?



I never suggested anyone "expend all extra energy" to do anything.
 
Buddhist terror is, if nothing else, on a far smaller level than the Muslim counterpart. But I would hope Buddhists of good faith would speak out against any of their brothers or sisters that do evil. Why wouldn't I? More importantly, why wouldn't they?
 
Again, much depends on the scope of the problem. If we have a garbage can on fire over here, and an entire row of buildings on fire over there, which is going to get the lion's share of attention? Which should?
 
I do thank you for the links; after 9/11, I took it upon myself to try to learn a bit about Islam - one book in particular, Taking Back Islam, was quite helpful to me.




LadyEllen -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/7/2008 4:30:19 AM)

as I see it;

- the media are not interested in reporting the views of normal Muslims; theyre not "newsworthy"
- any Muslims who do speak out publicly are likely to make the hit list as "collaborators"
- any Muslims involved in undermining or inhibiting the radicals would prefer to be out of the news
- and their anonymity is the only way they can do this

E




Level -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/7/2008 4:36:07 AM)

A quick reply before getting ready for work:
 
E, I agree with all you just said. But, is it kind of like the old saying, if you don't vote, you shouldn't complain? If, even for good reasons, you are silent about wrong-doing (especially by your "group"), then do you have any moral ground to stand on for being offended by your group being misconstrued?




LadyEllen -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/7/2008 4:50:13 AM)

I can see that Level, but honestly, using the IRA comparison - no one expected the local priest here or his parishioners to denounce the IRA as R Catholics. What I see is an expression of the seething undercurrent of racism present in our society, and this is just an excuse to express it against a whole group rather than denouncing a few criminals who happen to be Muslim.

E




Level -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/7/2008 4:57:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I can see that Level, but honestly, using the IRA comparison - no one expected the local priest here or his parishioners to denounce the IRA as R Catholics. What I see is an expression of the seething undercurrent of racism present in our society, and this is just an excuse to express it against a whole group rather than denouncing a few criminals who happen to be Muslim.

E


For some (too many) that is true, E. It's like when someone sees a black person commit a crime, and they say, "bunch n_____s, always causing trouble".
 
But, I'll stand by my belief, that in order to reach those that are reachable, everyone needs to do their part.
 
And, if the IRA hid any of their actions behind Catholicism, why wouldn't Catholics protest? Maybe the IRA didn't do so, I'm far from well-read on them.




charmdpetKeira -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/7/2008 5:41:14 AM)

~fr~
 
The act of defacing graves is simply a lack of responsibility toward, and for one’s self, in light of others.
 
It is done in cases like this, most likely, because those who do it are sending a symbolic message; and hey, it works.
 
If people did not equate the marker of a grave site, as a representation of the body that is buried there; defacing gravestones would be useless as a weapon.
 
k




hisannabelle -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/7/2008 11:46:52 AM)

level, please tell us muslims what you think we should do, realistically. i'm willing to try whatever you propose. you still haven't really said anything about what realistic steps we can take, though. what would make you and other non-muslim americans more comfortable with our presence?




NorthernGent -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/7/2008 4:08:35 PM)

'Can't be bothered to post links to the Muslim Council of Britain denouncing terrorism on television yet again.

Let's just say that until every Muslim in the world has knocked on your door begging for forgiveness, "the Muslims" will be deemed to be conspicuous by their silence.




Level -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/7/2008 4:14:33 PM)

I am already comfortable with Muslims. And it isn't just Muslims that need to "do" anything, but anyone opposing wrong-doing (as I've said).
 
What to do? Oppose the terrorists. Wherever we can. In print, in schools, vocally. Someone says that jihad needs to be waged on the west, or whomever, well, if they mean violence, then denounce it. Governments need to work better with one another stopping violent acts, and promoting peace and understanding. Media needs to do a better job in promoting the majority of Muslims that aren't supportive of terror.





Politesub53 -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/7/2008 4:20:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

 
If people did not equate the marker of a grave site, as a representation of the body that is buried there; defacing gravestones would be useless as a weapon.
 
k


True enough, but since most people do equate a gravestone with someones memory, these scum should be caught and punished.





Rule -> RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. (4/7/2008 4:47:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Governments need to work better with one another stopping violent acts, and promoting peace and understanding.

Western governments are promoting violence and are either blaming muslims for it, even though no muslims are involved (911, the London subway bombings), or are turning some of them into religious nuts and activating them to commit murder and other violence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Media needs to do a better job in promoting the majority of Muslims that aren't supportive of terror.

The media are controlled. It is pretty clear that western media have gotten the order to aggravate muslims and to show some of them on their worst.




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