RE: "Pretending I'm lesser"

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 8:26:59 AM

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I've known women who were ardent feminists,who loved humiliation play and being abused in various role play manners.

But they knew it wasn't "real" and enjoyed the release of just using it to blow off steam.

I don't see any incongruity in it. And it doesn't take an Einstien to figure it out.

< Message edited by Leatherist -- 4/9/2008 8:27:24 AM >

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 8:27:09 AM

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"Being a submissive doesn't mean I'm a lesser human being. It just means I get wet pretending I'm lesser and giving over control to another person. Getting horny from being submissive doesn't mean I can't be a feminist."

MasterDoc, i will have to pick it apart a bit. What stands out to me is the 'pretending i'm lesser'.
It simply says she feels submissve to be a lower state than Dominance. (Rather than an equal partner in a power exchange.)
I guess everyone has their own headspace on these matters.

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 8:44:30 AM

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i am still me, no matter what. i might not discuss certain aspects of politics, religion, or my work life, but i am still me, and all of that has an effect on who i am and who i have become. when my submission is offered it is as a gift. if something i say or do causes discomfort, it is still there and i am still who i am. if i choose to back off of an area, it is a gift, not a lessening of myself. if my passion for a One overrides my passion for a particular cause, then it is wonderful to have my heart that filled with that One's needs and thoughts. Does this lessen me, or enhance me in recognizing and accepting the Other's needs? No matter what, i am still me.

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 9:16:58 AM

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quote:

What is the point of submitting to anyone other than your "better"?

Because some of us just like to submit. To a person who likes to be Dominant. It hasn't got a damn thing to do with being lesser or inferior. I for one have never felt that way. It's just a mode of being. My dominant has the character traits of being dominant and is happy that way, I am comfortable and happy submitting. So I submit to her and it fulfils both of our needs.

Perhaps your sub feels that way too and it's right there in front of you. She likes submitting because 'it gets her wet". Like it gets me hard. But because you feel the need to be "better" than her, she pretends to be lesser. Because that way it gets you both off

< Message edited by WalterRego -- 4/9/2008 9:21:41 AM >

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 9:20:38 AM

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Mzbehaving: but from my point of view should you need to PRETEND in order to serve? Or should you FEEL that way without pretense? I'm not talking about a "scene" but an actual D/S relationship. Shouldn't a submissive seek to serve (and ONLY seek to serve) someone who they view as significantly "better" (as I said at least in some respect, NOT necessarily in all).

< Message edited by MasterDoc1 -- 4/9/2008 9:25:53 AM >

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 9:26:09 AM

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There are and have been times when I did pretend. I did have to bluff my way through it while dealing with things inside my head.Never long term though, it was always to get me past something until I was for lack of better words 'back to myself'. Sometimes when I want to scream I keep quiet. That for me is a form of pretending. I'm not sure if I'm writing this well but it goes along with my earlier post of 'act as if and it will become a part of you'.If I act all confident and strong in a situation, then sometimes I can actually grab hold of that and become confident/strong. The same thing in the opposite direction.A few times I have railed inside against my nature, against being submissive but I continued on anyway. Acting or pretending until things were balanced again.*shrug*

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 9:29:40 AM

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Walter: see above. I'm NOT talking about a "scene" (for which I would totally agree that with you) but an actual LTR.

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 9:36:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

Mzbehaving: but from my point of view should you need to PRETEND in order to serve? Or should you FEEL that way without pretense? I'm not talking about a "scene" but an actual D/S relationship. Shouldn't a submissive seek to serve (and ONLY seek to serve) someone who you view as significantly "better" (as I said at least in some respect, NOT necessarily in all).

You said she was a 'play partner.' That makes a big difference, IMO. If she were your 'submissive' or 'slave,' that would be a different kettle of fish.

I have a play partner. Most of the time we are on equal ground in most things. (He is a professional in an area where I have no knowledge, and I am a wordsmith, which he has little knowledge or interest in.) But when we play, I 'pretend' that he is the all-knowing, all-powerful Domly-Dom and I am the sub that he can order around. Certainly his experience and skill in BDSM (particularly the SM part of it) outstrip mine by light-years, and in that respect he is 'better' and I am 'lesser.' In all other respects, I am no lesser, but it pleases both of us for me to pretend that I am for that time.

Come to think of it, even if our relationship were more than the casual play dates, I would still 'pretend' during play, but would assert my acknowledgement of my own superiority in areas where it exists.

One is 'better' or 'lesser' only in spots, not in entirety, even within a D/s or M/s relationship.

pip, maybe I'm 'besser'

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 9:37:00 AM

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And there we have it the need to feel superior to someone else. not the need to have power or control but the need to feel superiour/ better. I'd be more than wiling to bet I can find within most slaves things they are better/ superiour to their owners at.
I hire a doctor because he has superior knowledge in the area of medicine and he serves me. I hire a lawyer because he has superiour knowledge to me in the area of law, and he serves me. They serve me not because they are less than me but because the exchange of one thing money for another thing service has been deamed to be of equal value.

In the area of power exchange, the service of dominance is exchanged for the service of submission, again not based on superior vs infereior but based on equal value each for the service the other offers.

Although I agree with the idea that pretending runs counter to my view on D/s.

I strongly disagree with the idea that one is better than the other inherantly. If Dominance was the universal measure of value then what of value are we dominants getting back from them? If submission is the universal value measure then what are they getting from us?

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 9:51:22 AM

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I never got that feminist stuff. To feel the need to push yourself forward suggests that you think your life was less than someone else. I am a peoplist. I believe that all people have the right, if they have the ability, to get themselves in a better position. If you feel that you are happiest catering to someone elses needs above your own, then that is your better position. It has nothing to do with feeling, or needing to feel lessor, in my opinion (unless that kink makes you horny); It has everything to do with being who you are.
Kyst

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 9:59:35 AM

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Poetry: You are right in context. Lets pretend that I had said submissive instead of "submissive play partner" in my first post. Although perhaps you have struck gold in THIS case; perhaps the "pretense" is core in this case because of the tension between "true" submissive and "submissive play partner. But for the sake of the theoretical discussion lets put that aside, k?
Archer: yes that is a large part of my issue here. If it is a D/S relationship "pretending" should NOT be the predominant feeling IMO.
Camille: I agree that pretending might be necessary sometimes but in a real D/S relationship it should not usually be the case.
Specific questions are:
1) shouldn't a submissive want to be in a relationship with only those doms who she thinks of as her "better"
2) If in such a relationship with the "right" dom, shouldn't feeling or being lesser (at least somehow) be the usual state rather than "pretending" to be lesser?

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 10:09:17 AM

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I think the majority have responded to both questions with disagreement.
The premise that one is better than the other being central to most answers thus far indicates that the premise has been rejected and thus all subsequent findings based on that premise would be false.

The premise of lesser has been rejected by most people in this post. Thus in their mind anything that follws that premise of "lesser" is irrelevent.

To simplify then answered in order asked
1) NO, better has nothing to do with D/s, power is unequal but that does not make either party better than the other only complimentaraly different in what role in a relationship fulfills them.

2) pretending as a normal regular state is counter to healthy relationships in my mind. But again I and several other folks have rejected the premise that better or lesser is foundationally related to D/s, so only the idea that pretending as a normal state is unhealthy holds any water.

< Message edited by Archer -- 4/9/2008 10:10:36 AM >

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 10:15:49 AM

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Doc,

I am a woman, Are you better then I at the knowledge of childbirthing, a monthy cycle, devolopment of breasts, the change of hormones a woman goes through? No why your a man. You will never intimately know these things even if your an obgyn because you are a man.
I will never know the deep wonderful knowledge of all things that go on in a male.

My (Invisdible) D-type, will be better at some things then I will be. for the simple fact. Hes going to have knowledge I will never have. He could fix this or that or this. It doesnt make him better then me, because I still have knowledge he will never really grasp, like how to do ever so shiney french knots with beads in a cross stitch pattern.

The point everyone is making here Is submission does not make ANYONE LESSER then their partner on a scale at whole.

Wheres Aquasubs Siggy when you need it (Sorry If I killed it)

With out my Dominanice you can not submit, with out your submission I can not Dominate. We are equal in this, even though our roles are different.

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 10:18:23 AM

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Feminism started to promote the radical notion is that men and women are equal in fundamental ways. The feminist movement still exists because even though more people accept that notion, men and women still don't get treated equally in important areas such as pay.

I see that notion of equality, and the work the feminist movement have achieved, as fundamental to my submission. I only enjoy submitting because I have the choice who and when to do so.

Feminism is about the right to hold equal power - not about having to wield it at all times.

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 10:26:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1
Specific questions are:
1) shouldn't a submissive want to be in a relationship with only those doms who she thinks of as her "better"
2) If in such a relationship with the "right" dom, shouldn't feeling or being lesser (at least somehow) be the usual state rather than "pretending" to be lesser?

1) No, although a savvy submissive will only put control into the hands of someone he/she trusts to make decisions at least as good as his/her own. But someone who walks around seeing people as his/her "better" probably needs serious work on his/her self-image. Someone who sees others as a "lesser" may well need to work on his/her ego.

2) No. The feeling of choosing to cede power - i.e. submitting - is not the same as feeling lesser. It's just like when a man cedes his power to walk through a door first to let a woman pass through, or when you have the right of way yet you wave the driver at the other stop sign to go first. Do you feel "lesser" for that?

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 10:27:39 AM

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quote:

Feminism is about the right to hold equal power - not about having to wield it at all times.

I like this.
I equate feminism with choice. Having a choice and acting on it, hopefully with the support of others.
As far as people having difficulty with contradictions, that's what I like, people who have contradictions within themselves. Someone who can understand my strength and appreciate it, yet also enjoy seeing me yield, and appreciating that this is a part of me that enjoys that.

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 10:54:22 AM

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In my beleif, Kneeling and giving yourself to a good, strong, and true master is in no way "lesser" in fact you have to be really strong with Innner power to give ALL of you to Him/Her. It is far beyond "lesser"

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 11:10:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

Walter: see above. I'm NOT talking about a "scene" (for which I would totally agree that with you) but an actual LTR.

I wasn't talking about a scene either, Doc. I submit outside of "scenes" all the time. Sometimes 'cause I don't care, sometimes because she likes it, sometimes 'cause that's the basic premise of my agreed submission to a Dominant. It's never because She's "better" than I am.

Submitting outside of a scene or play may not get me hard, but it does fulfil some basic component of my nature.

< Message edited by WalterRego -- 4/9/2008 11:12:05 AM >

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 11:47:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1
Maybe you consider yourself on a level with (or higher than) 95% of the human race. But when it comes to your dom...
What is the point of submitting to anyone other than your "better"?

am i weird for agreeing with this???

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 11:50:03 AM

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Differant people need differant things to function at their best. Some people like to be with really tall people, some like to be with someone dumber than them, some need to be with some who earns more money, some need lots of hugs, some dont want sex, some want equality. For me my personality who i am and how I function works best in a power exchange dynamic, I dont do it because I am selfless , im not doing it because I feel inferiour I do it because it works best for me. In a relationship without it I struggle a lot more and can be quite difficult, it doesnt make me happy. NEITHER person is less than the other they compliment each other, its just conveniant that there is a nice little community of people like me who need similar things.

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