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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 3:23:14 PM

mbes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

Thank you domah..I was beginning to feel awfully lonely. THe point is NOT that the sub should feel the need to lower herself or that the act of submission makes her lesser. However why in the world would she want a dom that she couldn't "look up to"? (Please ignore gender specific pronouns; the same appies to dommes too of course). To me a submissive MUST truly BELIEVE that the dom is smarter, more experienced, more stable, more decisive, more SOMETHING (that she views as important) than she is or why in the world would she be serving him? Otherwise, it seems to me, it's all role-playing rather than reality. Now role-playing can be hot but is that really all there is?

I can only answer for myself, but I have no interest in being with someone "better" than me. I spent years thinking he was better, and it was miserable for me.
He has strengths I don't have. I have strengths he doesn't have. Neither is better or worse.
As for why I submit, it's because it satisfies me. The reason I submit to him is because it pleases him.
To relate to the driving analogy someone used--- I know how to drive. I don't have to believe someone is a better driver than I am to let them drive, I have only to believe they are a competent driver, and that it works well with both of us for them to drive.

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 3:28:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

To me a submissive MUST truly BELIEVE that the dom is smarter, more experienced, more stable, more decisive, more SOMETHING (that she views as important) than she is or why in the world would she be serving him?

How about just believing he is more Dominant?

Why isn't his being just more dominant equatable in your eyes to being more experienced, more stable, more decisive?

Perhaps the real question is, why do you have such a strong need to feel "greater than", or smarter than, or more stable than the one you dominate? Will you feel inferior and unable to control her if she is smarter than you? More artistic than you? Better managing money than you?

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 4:04:56 PM

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From: Quietville
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i did not read any of this thread other than the op, so forgive if this has already been said.

I cannot wrap my mind around where the sub is coming from. I want to give my Dom the best i have to give...not lessen it. Why would i want him to have something sub-standard (no pun intended). Acting inferior is a dishonor to both the sub and her Dom.

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(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 5:02:40 PM

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I'm not lesser, I'm of equal value. I just don't have equal power. Imagine a surgeon, getting ready to perform a cardiac operation which will save someone's life. He turns and says "Nurse, scalpel". What happens if there's no OR nurse to assist? He can't operate alone. The nurse's value is equal, but the power wielded in the OR is not.

Now it seems as if your sub gets off on humiliation, pretending she's lowly and of little value. That's a fantasy because if her boss walked up to her and said she has the same responsibility as her coworkers but is of half the value and therefore will now only earn half of what they do, she sure wouldn't be happy nor would she put up with it.

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 5:12:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I'm not lesser, I'm of equal value. I just don't have equal power. Imagine a surgeon, getting ready to perform a cardiac operation which will save someone's life. He turns and says "Nurse, scalpel". What happens if there's no OR nurse to assist? He can't operate alone. The nurse's value is equal, but the power wielded in the OR is not.

Now it seems as if your sub gets off on humiliation, pretending she's lowly and of little value. That's a fantasy because if her boss walked up to her and said she has the same responsibility as her coworkers but is of half the value and therefore will now only earn half of what they do, she sure wouldn't be happy nor would she put up with it.

No actually we are more powerful in our submission. we open our legs and you intercourse us with your energy. That is why you are a spent snoring bear after and we are energized and wide awake. We're alive, Ahahahahah

_____________________________

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(in reply to DesFIP)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 5:14:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I'm not lesser, I'm of equal value. I just don't have equal power. Imagine a surgeon, getting ready to perform a cardiac operation which will save someone's life. He turns and says "Nurse, scalpel". What happens if there's no OR nurse to assist? He can't operate alone. The nurse's value is equal, but the power wielded in the OR is not.

Now it seems as if your sub gets off on humiliation, pretending she's lowly and of little value. That's a fantasy because if her boss walked up to her and said she has the same responsibility as her coworkers but is of half the value and therefore will now only earn half of what they do, she sure wouldn't be happy nor would she put up with it.

No actually we are more powerful in our submission. we open our legs and you intercourse us with your energy. That is why you are a spent snoring bear after and we are energized and wide awake. We're alive, Ahahahahah

and all this time i thought it was the beer

_____________________________

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MEMBER OF THE SUBBIE MAFIA
GRACEFULLY CHALLENGED :::::splat:::::
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(in reply to lusciouslips19)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 5:40:04 PM

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Maybe you and MasterDoc need to talk.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

To me a submissive MUST truly BELIEVE that the dom is smarter, more experienced, more stable, more decisive, more SOMETHING (that she views as important) than she is or why in the world would she be serving him? Otherwise, it seems to me, it's all role-playing rather than reality. Now role-playing can be hot but is that really all there is?

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublibrarian

Do I consider myself a lesser human being than anyone (MasterDoc included)? No. I have value and skills and am a bascially good, worthwhile person. Shouldn't a submissive be worth the Dominant's time by being worthwhile themselves?

Do I look up to MasterDoc and respect him a great deal? Yes. I really appreciate having his guidance and I wouldn't take it so much to heart if I didn't respect his level of intelligence and life experience. I wouldn't want to submit to someone I didn't hold in high esteem.

As for my use of the word pretending... mmm that maybe wasn't the best word choice to convey my meaning. I don't ever pretend to respect and defer to MasterDoc. I genuinely do. But if I'm ever feeling lesser or humiliated it's a temporary place I've put myself into because I get something out of the dynamic and perhaps it's a bit like pretending.

(in reply to sublibrarian)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 5:50:45 PM

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there are just some things in life that cant exist together yet do. why waste time thinking about just accept. otherwise you might go crazy thinking.

(in reply to lanie38)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 6:15:32 PM

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Oh no worries, he and I talk. He just posted this thread here because he thought it would stir up discussion. :-) And it certainly has!

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 6:49:24 PM

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Joined: 5/10/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

Thank you domah..I was beginning to feel awfully lonely. THe point is NOT that the sub should feel the need to lower herself or that the act of submission makes her lesser. However why in the world would she want a dom that she couldn't "look up to"? (Please ignore gender specific pronouns; the same appies to dommes too of course). To me a submissive MUST truly BELIEVE that the dom is smarter, more experienced, more stable, more decisive, more SOMETHING (that she views as important) than she is or why in the world would she be serving him? Otherwise, it seems to me, it's all role-playing rather than reality. Now role-playing can be hot but is that really all there is?

To turn the question around a bit, What challenge is there in dominating a stuffed animal. i admire someone who can outwit and Master me, but i certainly consider that to be a challenge to them. Do i intentionally lose? Now that would be telling, wouldn't it?
if i derive pleasure from my Domme's pleasure, then it is a win-win situation.

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 7:08:31 PM

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I heard someone say this once and I heartily agree: "We are equal in value, but not equal in status." Many, many people confuse the two and think that being submissive means being of lesser value.

Master Fire

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(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 7:10:45 PM

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Joined: 12/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

So one of my submissive playmates is back to inflamatory journaling.
After a lengthy discussion giving her views on the apparent incongruity between being a feminist and a submissive (yes sometimes she worries too much; perhaps I need to beat her more) she concludes with:

Being a submissive doesn't mean I'm a lesser human being. It just means I get wet pretending I'm lesser and giving over control to another person. Getting horny from being submissive doesn't mean I can't be a feminist.

I have a comment of my own but first...what do YOU think?

Being submissive is empowering. In the vanilla world I AM a dominant woman who everyone wants to be or be close to. In my relationship i empower my Dominant even more by submitting to Him. She needs to learn how to balance being a Woman and a woman.

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 7:11:57 PM

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Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
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The fact that I am a submissive, mostly.
The fact that I have been paid, occasionally.

None of this makes me "less" than the dominant/top/client.

Being paid, can be degrading, and I get off on that. It can also be a power kick, and guess what, I get off on that too.

Being tied up, it's like meditation. Does someone who practices yoga become less?

Because the bf likes to hit me with his singapore, and I like to be hit with the same, that doesn't mean we aren't, for all intents and purposes, equal.

I will point out, that there are parts of the scene where I have been treated as "less" for being a)female of b)a new face c)both. This had nothing to do with my orientation, cos no-one knew it at the time. And that, the being treated as less/patronised, pissed me off.

(in reply to lanie38)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 8:06:33 PM

Daddyslilpookie

Posts: 498
Joined: 3/3/2008
From: OC, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I'm not lesser, I'm of equal value. I just don't have equal power. Imagine a surgeon, getting ready to perform a cardiac operation which will save someone's life. He turns and says "Nurse, scalpel". What happens if there's no OR nurse to assist? He can't operate alone. The nurse's value is equal, but the power wielded in the OR is not.

Now it seems as if your sub gets off on humiliation, pretending she's lowly and of little value. That's a fantasy because if her boss walked up to her and said she has the same responsibility as her coworkers but is of half the value and therefore will now only earn half of what they do, she sure wouldn't be happy nor would she put up with it.

No actually we are more powerful in our submission. we open our legs and you intercourse us with your energy. That is why you are a spent snoring bear after and we are energized and wide awake. We're alive, Ahahahahah

and all this time i thought it was the beer

Yeah me too lol this is what my Master would say

_____________________________

Princess Andie

"A Woman Loves Only Her Master"

(in reply to sirsholly)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 8:25:47 PM

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

Thank you domah..I was beginning to feel awfully lonely. THe point is NOT that the sub should feel the need to lower herself or that the act of submission makes her lesser. However why in the world would she want a dom that she couldn't "look up to"? (Please ignore gender specific pronouns; the same appies to dommes too of course). To me a submissive MUST truly BELIEVE that the dom is smarter, more experienced, more stable, more decisive, more SOMETHING (that she views as important) than she is or why in the world would she be serving him? Otherwise, it seems to me, it's all role-playing rather than reality. Now role-playing can be hot but is that really all there is?

If I had to find someone who was smarter than me, more capable than I am in all the areas I am capable in, wealthier, more traveled, more stable, etc etc I'd be alone. Because I'm highly educated, financially stable, I've had many years of therapy, traveled more than I ever wanted to.

He has to be complimentary to me. Better in the areas I'm worse in, stronger in the areas I'm weak in. So that together we are an amazing team. And like most teams, someone has to lead. I'm capable of leading but it takes a huge amount of psychic energy. He does it with a lot less angst and second guessing. Which doesn't make him smarter, more stable, etc, etc. It just makes him a better leader.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 8:32:17 PM

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quote:

Being a submissive doesn't mean I'm a lesser human being. It just means I get wet pretending I'm lesser and giving over control to another person. Getting horny from being submissive doesn't mean I can't be a feminist.

Immediate reaction: Makes sense to me. I can see how the word pretending may set someone off, though.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 4/9/2008 8:44:52 PM >

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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 8:44:24 PM

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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

As far as people having difficulty with contradictions, that's what I like, people who have contradictions within themselves.

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes).

Walt Whitman, "Song of Myself"

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to KatyLied)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 10:20:45 PM

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Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
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quote:

(I am large, I contain multitudes).

Walt Whitman, "Song of Myself"

May have to be my next sig. :)

(in reply to dcnovice)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/10/2008 12:16:58 AM

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Joined: 8/22/2005
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A lot of people will talk (and apparently are, on this thread) about how feminism doesn't preclude submission, and submission doesn't imply "lesser", etc. However, that doesn't change the fact that one form of submission, which some people like and seek, involves one person accepting in some sense that they are inferior to their partner. This may be just in the context of a scene, in which case it could be termed "pretending", or it may go past that. It may be limited to inferiority in one or two specific areas (e.g., physical weakness), or it may be broader. Even if it's broader, it need not imply that the submissive is less "valuable" or worthy, but could simply mean that, in the relationship, their needs and preferences are, by agreement, less important than the dominant's.

There are also many different construals of "feminism".

Not every combination of the above sexual preferences and version of feminism is incompatible, but I think some certainly are. Some people are able to maintain feminism and submission. Some abandon feminism for submission. Some modify or expand their view of feminism to accomodate their submission, or vice versa.

So, as with most questions on these forums, I think there's no one answer. Personally, I think it's unhelpful to think about feminism per se. Each woman has her own beliefs about what she should and shouldn't do, and should and shouldn't be able to do, and almost certainly a form of submission can be negotiated which is consistent with these. In my experience labeling these beliefs as "feminism" adds nothing but confusion.

(in reply to IvyMorgan)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/10/2008 12:55:53 AM

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From: Montana
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quote:

Being a submissive doesn't mean I'm a lesser human being. It just means I get wet pretending I'm lesser and giving over control to another person.

If she has to pretend....then this isn't for her....except as a certain kind of role play that doesn't interfer with reality.

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

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