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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 9:12:00 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
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Not where my mind was when I posted to this thread, but a pretty interesting link nonetheless:

Moment of Truth in Iraq

Michael Yon changed my mind about the war in Iraq, by making me understand it for the first time.

From the very beginning I was against the war. I thought it would be a disaster, another Vietnam. And until I had the privilege of working on this book with Michael I was always for immediate pull-out: why should one more American die for a doomed effort?

Michael--who is as close to totally non-political as anyone I know--showed me two things. First, because I judged by Vietnam, the war of my youth, I had radically underestimated what American soldiers could do. I knew they could blow away any regular opponent on any battlefield. But wage a counterinsurgency against an enemy with broad support in the population? Win the "hearts and minds," to use the Vietnam era phrase that now can be used only ironically? That was asking too much, I thought.

I was 100 percent wrong. Today's American soldiers excel at counterinsurgency, because they excel at the most important thing: winning over the people by inspiring them with their own courage and compassion, discipline and determination. Reading this book is like watching the movie Apocalypse Now, but in an alternate universe in which the opposite always happens. Every time our soldiers get into an incredibly tense situation with some Iraqis who might be friends or might be enemies or murderers, some situation in which what's needed is amazing calm and courage to keep things from blowing up and ending in a blood bath, our guys pull it off!

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 9:20:20 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

Here`s some links.....

They`re from real soldiers who`ve lived this war and fought it.

Winter Soldier Testimony




(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 9:22:30 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

They aren`t making any progress is Iraq.

The "surge" hasn`t produced the factional cooperation, it was supposed to.

The only progress that`s been made is getting Bush closer to the end of his term,period.

Iraq has been nothing but a huge deadly mis-adventure.

No amount of spin or ignorance will hide that.

How`s that for engaging conversation?


ahhh ... quoting the "party line" like it was gospel from on high, and absolutely no room for differing points of view?

 They aren`t making any progress is Iraq.

I suspect nothing less than heaven on earth in Iraq would convince you that anything qualified as "progress".

Ideologically driven opinion.

The "surge" hasn`t produced the factional cooperation, it was supposed to.

The surge was suppose to produce "factional cooperation"?  I think it would help if you had some understanding about what the surge was suppose to accomplish, and how, and when before we got into a discussion about it.

Ideologically driven opinion.

The only progress that`s been made is getting Bush closer to the end of his term,period.

Ideologically driven opinion. 

Iraq has been nothing but a huge deadly mis-adventure.

Ideologically driven opinion.

No amount of spin or ignorance will hide that.

I think both the spin and ignorance lies elsewhere.

You sound pretty much like any other religious fanatic, where any evidence or beliefs that conflict with your fanaticism is classified as heresy.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 9:26:25 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59



Here`s some links.....

They`re from real soldiers who`ve lived this war and fought it.

Winter Soldier Testimony



I'd guess you might want to actually read the quote I posted about the Michael Yon book, especially the part where the guy talks about the fact that the soldiers of Vietnam and the soldiers in Iraq seem to be having a difference of experience.

Bringing up the Winter Soldier testimony from the Vietnam war says little or nothing about the US soldiers now in Iraq.

However, they do say a lot about your negative beliefs about the military, about US soldiers, and ... hell .. about the United States.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 9:28:33 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

They aren`t making any progress is Iraq.

The "surge" hasn`t produced the factional cooperation, it was supposed to.

The only progress that`s been made is getting Bush closer to the end of his term,period.

Iraq has been nothing but a huge deadly mis-adventure.

No amount of spin or ignorance will hide that.

How`s that for engaging conversation?


ahhh ... quoting the "party line" like it was gospel from on high, and absolutely no room for differing points of view?




 They aren`t making any progress is Iraq.

I suspect nothing less than heaven on earth in Iraq would convince you that anything qualified as "progress".

Ideologically driven opinion.

The "surge" hasn`t produced the factional cooperation, it was supposed to.

The surge was suppose to produce "factional cooperation"?  I think it would help if you had some understanding about what the surge was suppose to accomplish, and how, and when before we got into a discussion about it.

Ideologically driven opinion.

The only progress that`s been made is getting Bush closer to the end of his term,period.

Ideologically driven opinion. 

Iraq has been nothing but a huge deadly mis-adventure.

Ideologically driven opinion.

No amount of spin or ignorance will hide that.

I think both the spin and ignorance lies elsewhere.



You sound pretty much like any other religious fanatic, where any evidence or beliefs that conflict with your fanaticism is classified as heresy.

Firm



Yawn 


I think it`s incumbent on those that drove us into this ditch,to show the progress,if any.

You can`t show progress,other then republicans saying there`s progress ,assclowns like Lieberman or payed actors like Gen. Peter Patreas saying so also.

Otherwise you guys would show the progress.You can`t.

Your mis-adventure is now something over 2/3s of this country wants out off.

It`s them, you gotta convince.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/12/2008 9:40:40 PM >

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 9:41:29 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Yawn 


... which just goes to prove my point.  You aren't interested in doing anything other than pouring the greatest amount of negativity and bullshit onto the subject.  When called on your BS, you either go into a rage, or desert the field.

I haven't seen you ever post an original thought.  You are so soaked in your worldview and narrative of "US bad", that a laser beam couldn't penetration with an original thought.  You post stuff just to rant and vent, and attempt to get "amens" in support of a personality  so steeped in ideology that it is divorced from a rational thinking process. It would likely cause physical pain to even listen to an idea that might conflict with such a closed mind.

*yawn* indeed.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 9:44:14 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
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ohh ... going back and adding some ... ahh "original thought" to your post, huh?  That "yawn" looked kinda lonely and unsupportable out there, did it?  

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 9:46:29 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


I think things are going pretty good, overall, in Iraq.

Firm



I don't want my point to be missed.

GO FUCKING MOVE TO IRAQ. *PROVE* you think it's paradise.

I didn't think so.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/12/2008 9:47:00 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 9:46:55 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		no,no.

Don`t put words in my mouth,fellow American.

You have a hard enough time speaking for yourself.

It`s Bush and his minions who I think are bad.

I love America and Americans.

Stranding a 100 thousand GIs in the middle of Arabia is not my definition of supporting the troops.

But I`m funny that way.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 9:48:29 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Stranding a 100 thousand GIs in the middle of Arabia is not my definition of supporting the troops.

But I`m funny that way.



Well, you don't directly profit from their deployment, so your feelings in that are understandable.

The **ONLY** people who honestly support the continued occupation, are those getting paid to support it.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 9:55:41 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Stranding a 100 thousand GIs in the middle of Arabia is not my definition of supporting the troops.

But I`m funny that way.



Well, you don't directly profit from their deployment, so your feelings in that are understandable.

The **ONLY** people who honestly support the continued occupation, are those getting paid to support it.




Well then Farg, I ask,who are these dummies who aren`t profiting but are still voting against their`s and America`s best interests?

Not every republican has stock in  Raytheon or works for Exxon corporate.

What`s their excuse?

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/12/2008 9:56:55 PM >

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 10:05:19 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Voting is a joke. Only fools believe that the ballots cast are actually COUNTED much less that they add up to the fabricated, reported totals.

The only important thing to these people is that the war profits continue.

That's why NBC and CBS are all for the continued occupation. How much money did GE make last year? How much money did Westinghouse make last year?




< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/12/2008 10:07:04 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 10:06:27 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Fargle......sooo jaded.....

<notices lisacat look`n at me>

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/12/2008 10:07:21 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 10:08:21 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Fargle......sooo jaded.....


Actually, I have an IT and Financial Auditing background, and have never met *anyone* who could actually prove the results of these 'elections' legitimate in even the most basic way.

My reconning is it's been *demonstrably* crooked back to the War of Northern Aggression.






< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/12/2008 10:09:07 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 10:15:14 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		 You`re trained to be suspicious and skeptical.

You`re an essential part of the republic.

I thank you.....

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 10:43:34 PM   
Gemini1766


Posts: 991
Joined: 3/7/2008
Status: offline 		Want to see the nation suddenly stand up and take real notice of the War in Iraq? Institute the Draft, as it should have been.

What has the war accomplished? Severely diminishing our ability to fight, period. Our armor, artillary, and our Soldier, Sailors, Airmen and Marines are all over taxed. But Bush doesn't give a damn, he's happy to let them rot to hell rather than bring up the Draft. People get upset if the Draft is mentioned.

The surge, works only as long as the heavy presence of our military is in the area. As soon as they leave, the insurgents return. You can't beat an enemy that just disappears and blends in, happy to shoot you in the back, or blow themselves up to take out 10 or more of our well trained fighters. The cost to train a suicide bomber and send him off on a mission? Negligible. The cost for each soldier killed, 20k just for basic training, then you add in the cost of MOS/Rating training, and then their experience. It gets very expensive for us.

If you say we had to go there because Saddam was a bad man, I'll remind you that we backed his Dictatorship over a Democratically elected government next door in Iran. We taught him how to build chem weapons, and sold him what he needed.

If you claim the WMD, you're lying to yourself and others. He did have some at one point, he got rid of them, and Bush knew it and did not want to lose his chance so went in before the UN Weapons inspectors had a chance to write up their findings. We never found a thing. Oh, and if you want to claim that he sent his stock piles to Syria, why don't we have evidence? Our spy satellites and U-2 aircraft and UMAVs would have caught the movement of such across the open desert.

I have a friend over there, and am reminded repeatedly that nearly everyone she knows hates Bush and how he has gotten us involved in this travesty of a war. They are honorable service members and do what they are trained to do, and do it well, but that does not mean that they approve of it. You can find dart boards with Bush's picture on them all over the place, apparently.

If things are so great, the twins should be encouraged to enlist, and go over there and serve. It won't happen.

On average it takes 10 years to break an insurgency. We're only half way there. So, is it, or is it not time to start the draft rather than keep grinding our military into dust?


_____________________________

"Strangers do not owe strangers anything, beyond an obeisance to the laws mutual conduct as dictated by the land in which they live. Anything else is negotiable." puella

"TwistedKinkerBell's online male companion of a nearly intimate nature."

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/12/2008 10:54:49 PM   
Gemini1766


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Well then Farg, I ask,who are these dummies who aren`t profiting but are still voting against their`s and America`s best interests?

Not every republican has stock in  Raytheon or works for Exxon corporate.

What`s their excuse?

They have been made to stop thinking for themselves. They've bought into the hype of how much danger we are in from terrorists. They believe that things are best as they are right now, because there have been no more attacks on US soil. Therefore they are happy to continue with what seems to be working.

Truth is, if OBL wants to hit us again, he can. Remember, the events of 9/11 took 4 years or more to orchistrate, and while it did not go quite as planned, it had the effect he wanted. He caused us, as a country, to fear him and his organization.

"Better to fight them over there than over here" is a stupid mentality. There were no ties between Al Qaida and OBL, and Saddam, none of the links espoused by Bush and Co. were true and they even admitted it, quietly. Even to this day many still believe such ties existed.

I've seen this all first hand. My partner's parents, lovely caring intelligent people, have bought into it. I even had a bit of a heated debate with her mother over the whole thing, and reminded her of what the Constitution says, what Benjamin Franklin said, and others on the subject of tyranny and security. She finally decided to stop arguing with me, because she could not refute what the Founding Fathers view on such things would be from what they wrote. And she could not refute what I said about Bush's trampling of Our Constitution.


_____________________________

"Strangers do not owe strangers anything, beyond an obeisance to the laws mutual conduct as dictated by the land in which they live. Anything else is negotiable." puella

"TwistedKinkerBell's online male companion of a nearly intimate nature."

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 6:28:48 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


I think things are going pretty good, overall, in Iraq.

Firm



I don't want my point to be missed.

GO FUCKING MOVE TO IRAQ. *PROVE* you think it's paradise.

I didn't think so.




How your brain translates what I posted to mean "Iraq is a paradise" is a very good example of the kind of thinking I'm talking about in Owner. 

The reality that you see in your mind is pretty well controlled by a belief system that discounts any events, thinking or reasoning that challenges it.  That's why even trying to have an open discussion with either of you is futile.

Fuck reality, unless it reinforces your already existing beliefs.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 6:34:40 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766

I've seen this all first hand. My partner's parents, lovely caring intelligent people, have bought into it. I even had a bit of a heated debate with her mother over the whole thing, and reminded her of what the Constitution says, what Benjamin Franklin said, and others on the subject of tyranny and security. She finally decided to stop arguing with me, because she could not refute what the Founding Fathers view on such things would be from what they wrote. And she could not refute what I said about Bush's trampling of Our Constitution.



Maybe she just recognized that you are as locked into your ideological belief system as Farg and Owner are, and that it was useless in trying to reason with a fanatic?

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 6:36:35 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Good to see you posting down here again, Firm.

10 out of 10 for persistence; I'll give you that.

And, you'll nail your colours to the mast at any given opportunity - credit for that.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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