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The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 2:26:21 PM   
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quote:

IMAGINE GETTING A bee sting; then imagine getting six more. You are now in a position to think about what it means to be poor, according to Charles Karelis, a philosopher and former president of Colgate University.

In the community of people dedicated to analyzing poverty, one of the sharpest debates is over why some poor people act in ways that ensure their continued indigence. Compared with the middle class or the wealthy, the poor are disproportionately likely to drop out of school, to have children while in their teens, to abuse drugs, to commit crimes, to not save when extra money comes their way, to not work.

To an economist, this is irrational behavior. It might make sense for a wealthy person to quit his job, or to eschew education or develop a costly drug habit. But a poor person, having little money, would seem to have the strongest incentive to subscribe to the Puritan work ethic, since each dollar earned would be worth more to him than to someone higher on the income scale. Social conservatives have tended to argue that poor people lack the smarts or willpower to make the right choices. Social liberals have countered by blaming racial prejudice and the crippling conditions of the ghetto for denying the poor any choice in their fate. Neoconservatives have argued that antipoverty programs themselves are to blame for essentially bribing people to stay poor.


http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/03/30/the_sting_of_poverty/?page=full

Interesting ideas floated in the article, but I think it just proves that one size doesn't fit all.

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 3:43:49 PM   
kittinSol


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I read this article when it came out in newsprint - I thought it was very interesting as well.

quote:



When we're poor, Karelis argues, our economic worldview is shaped by deprivation, and we see the world around us not in terms of goods to be consumed but as problems to be alleviated. This is where the bee stings come in: A person with one bee sting is highly motivated to get it treated. But a person with multiple bee stings does not have much incentive to get one sting treated, because the others will still throb. The more of a painful or undesirable thing one has (i.e. the poorer one is) the less likely one is to do anything about any one problem. Poverty is less a matter of having few goods than having lots of problems.

(...)


If Karelis is right, antipoverty initiatives championed all along the ideological spectrum are unlikely to work - from work requirements, time-limited benefits, and marriage and drug counseling to overhauling inner-city education and replacing ghettos with commercially vibrant mixed-income neighborhoods. It also means, Karelis argues, that at one level economists and poverty experts will have to reconsider scarcity, one of the most basic ideas in economics.



It would seem to prove that it's very difficult to get out of the poverty trap, however much do-gooders try to help you with 'poverty initiatives' and other 'charitable' actions. So, what's the solution?

Redistribution of wealth.

I have my flame retardant suit on :-) .


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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 3:56:25 PM   
popeye1250


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And if the only jobs available pay $8-$10 an hour you're going to continue to be poor.
As I've said before many times we need to shitcan this "global-economy" "free-trade" crap because it just does not work for 95% of the people in the U.S.

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 4:03:40 PM   
Poetryinpain


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Great idea, Kittin, but who decides whose wealth gets redistributed to whom?

The original Communists tried the "from each according to his ability; to each according to his need" idea, and what happened? There were still people who didn't work and didn't contribute, even though they received only enough to keep them barely alive. And there were people who hid their assets so others couldn't get their grubby hands on them.

There would have to be a fundamental shift in our way of thinking - across the board - in order to make wealth redistribution work in a way that would empower every human being to live a life free from poverty.

pip, wouldn't it be loverly, though?


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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 4:08:01 PM   
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I fall into the social conservative bracket, so  on average, and I must emphasise we are talking averages, I think really poor people "lack the smarts" to improve their lot.

However, I would certainly be willing as a taxpayer to  fund any programme that was designed to help such people.

The problem is that dopey PC liberals would, after the poor had learned to read and write, offer courses on things like constitutional history or ebonics or why is racism so bad, things like that.

I would offer instruction on bricklaying, electrician, motor vehicle mechanic so that if the silly buggas applied themselves they would emerge with a usefull skill that would help them escape the circumstances  in which they have to spend their lives.
You know I am right.

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 4:24:48 PM   
Real_Trouble


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Redistribution of wealth is very definitely not the answer.

Consider - do you really want to put in place a system that incentivizes not achieving, not attempting to push the envelope, not innovating, and not working hard so that you can collect someone else's hard-earned money?

I certainly do not.  While I do agree our attempts to address poverty have, on average, been embarassingly bad (so on par with most things governments do), I don't think moving to economic systems that have repeatedly proven to be a total clusterfuck is the answer.

Wealth redistribution will quite possibly make things worse, not better.


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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 4:31:32 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I fall into the social conservative bracket, so  on average, and I must emphasise we are talking averages, I think really poor people "lack the smarts" to improve their lot.

However, I would certainly be willing as a taxpayer to  fund any programme that was designed to help such people.

The problem is that dopey PC liberals would, after the poor had learned to read and write, offer courses on things like constitutional history or ebonics or why is racism so bad, things like that.

I would offer instruction on bricklaying, electrician, motor vehicle mechanic so that if the silly buggas applied themselves they would emerge with a usefull skill that would help them escape the circumstances  in which they have to spend their lives.
You know I am right.


Hey PrettyBoy, that would make too much sense though, wouldn't it?
You mean like not *give* someone a fish, but "teach* them to fish so they can feed themselves for the rest of their lives?
But,... but, that would put too many social workers out of work!
People with trades and skills? Able to earn a good living for themselves and their families? That would be a disaster!

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 4:40:50 PM   
seeksfemslave


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he he he he Say no more

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 4:49:50 PM   
hisannabelle


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funny that that is the perception. most poor people i know work much harder than any middle class or wealthy people i know.

anyway, on the topic of the op - i have to say that i didn't agree with the whole article, but that this part: Poverty is less a matter of having few goods than having lots of problems. i find to be very true.

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 4/13/2008 4:50:50 PM >


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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 5:08:32 PM   
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How nice. Some rich people wrote an article about how poor people "bring it onto themselves." I'm certainly glad they spent their time doing so. Now that they have defined the poor people as being their own worst enemy, they (the rich) can continue to suck the life out of the economy, hording wealth at the top, and leave the rest of us to live hand to mouth. Better still, the rich will continue to make sure that those beneath them (to their way of thinking) will not have access to health care, family planning, education, or living wages. Legislating them out of existence doesn't really bother them... they're rich. If their daughter gets knocked up, they can hop a jet to someplace that does allow abortion, or effective cancer treatment, or other benefits of civilized life that they deny others because it cuts too much into their horde.

The top 2% wage earners in theis country make 95% of the money. Yet they pay virtually none of the taxes. The overwhelming burden of that falls squarely on the middle class. No one wants to make the uber wealthy pay their fair share, simply because most people worry about the point in their lives when THEY will be rich. Unfortunately for them, statistically, it's not very likely to happen. Unless they happen to hit the lottery, write a best seller, or invent the next thing that sells as well as sticky notes. A miniscule percentage of the population will ever become "rich." 

The solution is simple: force the wealthy to pay their fair share into the system that allowed them to become so prosperous in the first place. When they do, suddenly we will have better roads, schools, healthcare for everyone, and opportunities to better your, and your families, situation.

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 5:11:44 PM   
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I suggest you give the article a second read. It looks as though you seriously misunderstood the main argument.

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 5:14:50 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Annabelle: as you will probably know by now I have peeked at your profile and I am totally confused as to why an attractive lady like yourself would choose to hide  under such self denying clothes.
If I wish to admire your youthful sensuality, is that soooooo bad ?

Not a very original point I admit and also a thread hijack, but I dont care.
I just wanted to say it thassal.

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 5:27:31 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber
The top 2% wage earners in theis country make 95% of the money. Yet they pay virtually none of the taxes.


Do you believe the things you make up or make up the things you believe?

quote:


Top 25 Percent Paid 84 Percent of Income Taxes; Top One Paid 37.4 Percent
According to preliminary data released by the Internal Revenue Service and a new Tax Foundation Special Report, the top-earning 25 percent of taxpayers earned more than two-thirds of the nation's income (67.3%) and paid more than five out of every six dollars collected by the federal income tax (84%) in 2000. There were 32 million tax returns in the top 25 percent, all with adjusted gross incomes (AGI) over $55,225.
The top one percent of U.S. taxpayers (annual income over $313,469) made 20.8 percent of the income earned in 2000 and paid 37.4 percent of the total federal individual income taxes collected that year. This fraction of the tax burden paid by the top one percent - well over a third of the total - is up from 25.1 percent ten years earlier in tax year 1990.
At the other end of the income spectrum, the bottom 50 percent of the nation's taxpayers earned only 13.0 percent of all income in 2000, but they paid an even smaller fraction of the federal individual income taxes collected - 3.9 percent.
source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/818546/posts  

 
What a formula not to be poor huh? Don't have kids early in life or as a single parent, get an education, avoid arrest; DAMN that's too tough and to much to demand!
 
Better to create 'facts' and make idiotic statements and rationalize that someone else caused you to be a failure. Then while whining about it, demand those who did become success share it with you - because after all - you're entitled.

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 5:28:41 PM   
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General question: who pays the most in taxes?
 
edited to add: ah, Merc, thanks for the info. I'd like to see others weigh in, too.

 

< Message edited by Level -- 4/13/2008 5:29:52 PM >


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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 5:44:54 PM   
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I don't think people entrenched in the idea of the evil wealthy will change their minds. It seems to be one of those annoyingly polarizing issues that sparks deep emotion to an irrational point. Hmm. I just made a really cynical post eh.

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 5:55:34 PM   
kittinSol


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Fast reply.

The subject of poverty is only polarising if one wants to see it that way. Wealth isn't evil, nothing in life is. But some things are wrong - and the growing disparity between the very wealthy and the very poor in our society (let's not forget, one of the richest on the planet) is cause for concern to some of us.

It's not because some people have their eyes wide open that they're making things up. Similarly, it's in the benefit of some interests groups that we further the myth that poor people are always responsible for their own undoing and have some kind of defficient 'moral gene'. As a matter of fact, it's something I read frequently on these boards. Something I, for one, find disturbing.



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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 5:56:37 PM   
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i grew up with everything and anything money could buy. For varying reasons i thumbed my nose to it all and further insulted my very self by turning down Princeton, the US AirForce, and Butler Univ. i choose instead to be a stay at home mother who volunteered at Rest Homes, the Women's shelter, as a Guardian Ad Litem, and just for shits and giggles managed an animal shelter. Some of my dearest friends are uber rich; a few others have not graduated high school and live in the same trailer they grew up in.
Last April i loaded my van with a smidge of what i had amassed in the prior 17yrs with my ex, (mostly books, & UM's too!), triple checked the $400 in my pocket, and double saluted our five bedroom/three bath, two car garage.
Your numbers aside .... they are simply numbers to me. i have been well off, and i have been one breath away from being homeless.
In my limited experience my poor friends lack a long term plan, my well off friends have always had some notion of a plan. Not one group of my friends work harder; one group merely works smarter.
b.~

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 6:05:29 PM   
bipolarber


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Nice that you had the choice... (and probably could always fall back on your family to help you out when things got too tough.)

Try surviving hand to mouth sometime when you don't have a safety net.

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 6:19:19 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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Ah, merc, you think you can find anything more recent? That post was from 2003, the data appear to be from 2000.

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 6:19:57 PM   
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While not a socialist, I see things like a news story this morning, where someone paid $675,000.00 for a license plate in Delaware, and I see human beings suffering, and it boggles my mind.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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