RE: Immigration law: something's got to give.

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RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 2:56:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrObjectmaker

I mean the only section of the US population that can be truly classed as "American" are the North American Indian nations and look what a bum deal they've been given by you other American immigrants......

I think technically it was the British and the French who came over and started using and abusing the native folk. But I suppose if you really need a reason to hate the US and have to go back a couple hundred years to find it, we can ignore that point.

(in reply to MstrObjectmaker)

RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 3:00:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Those who wish to tell us how bad and greedy Wal-Mart and IBM and Microsoft are while insisting that they pay even more than they do in taxes and be regulated even more strictly while those who live off the dole want minimal if any supervision of how they spend their taxpayer-provided check?

Hate to get off the subject but it's hard to let this go unchallenged. You need to do some reading of your own instead of blindly buying into the Limbaugh/O'Reilly/Hannity version of the facts.

"After World War II, the nation's tax bill was roughly split between corporations and individuals. But after years of changes in the federal tax code and international economy, the corporate share of taxes has declined to a fourth the amount individuals pay, according to the US Office of Management and Budget." --Boston Globe series on Corporate Welfare

There are all kinds of other interesting stories like how many Fortune 500 companies have paid little or no income taxes by funneling profits through foreign subsidiaries and shell companies. Perfectly legal due to loopholes in the tax code. Not to worry though, the government has true believers like you to make up the loss in tax revenues.

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RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 3:22:09 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrObjectmaker

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrObjectmaker

One of the ways to allow people from other countries to improve their own countries prosperity is through education.......if you spent a little less tax payers money on things like weapons and wars.....you might be able to help those less fortunate than yourselves.....

Soooooooooooooo...instead of spending the part of the money that we pay on national defense...weapons of war and the soldiers that carry them, NOT going into the whole war thing...we should pay for all those less fortunate? Does that include those unwilling to work? Those who wish to scorn our country and its ways while still holding their hand out for economic development? Those who wish to tell us how bad and greedy Wal-Mart and IBM and Microsoft are while insisting that they pay even more than they do in taxes and be regulated even more strictly while those who live off the dole want minimal if any supervision of how they spend their taxpayer-provided check?

I always find that concervatives in general insist on this "US" and "THEM" argument.

There is no "US" and "THEM", theres just people......

You seem to be intent on painting every immigrant with the same tar brush......

Sure there are bad un's and good un's.......thats true of everybody........

Who ever they are.....rich and poor.......immigrant or citizen.....

No...that is not my intent. I have nothing against LEGAL immigrants...those people who have gone through all that is required to become a citizen of this or any other country. What I do have something against is ILLEGAL immigrants, cloyingly called "undocumented aliens" by those media outlets and everyday citizens sympathetic to their 'plight'. Even within that category, I am not without sympathy...those who have run to escape oppression or certain death; for these people I have all kinds of sympathy and as long as the situation exists for them in their home country, I say give them political asylum. But...when it no longer exists and when that person has been in this country for 16 years and has not bothered to go through what is needed to become a LEGAL citizen, then my sympathy evaporates.

And if you can find somewhere in anything I have said where I said that ALL immigrants collect welfare, please show me. If you can find anywhere that I stated that all illegal immigrants are collecting welfare, please show me. My prejudice is against lawbreakers and/or people who are fully capable but unwilling to work. That would include citizens born here.

One last thing...I often find that liberals bring out this argument..."There is No Us vs. Them, There's Only People" when they want to show how compassionate they are vs. conservatives who happen to think that no one is owed a living. We also happen to think that you cannot tax others to make yourself rich. The really ironic thing is that in stating the argument of "there is no Us vs. Them, there are only people", they also tend to state that conservatives somehow fail to recognize that, thus further dividing things into what they say there isn't..."liberals holding up the poor and downtrodden, no matter how they got there and those mean old conservatives who don't care".

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 6/4/2008 3:31:44 PM >

(in reply to MstrObjectmaker)

RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 3:31:28 PM

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quote:

"After World War II, the nation's tax bill was roughly split between corporations and individuals. But after years of changes in the federal tax code and international economy, the corporate share of taxes has declined to a fourth the amount individuals pay, according to the US Office of Management and Budget."

I would not call that a bad thing. Corporations are not people. They don't vote and cannot be represented in Congress.

Corporate income tax generally represents double taxation. Profits in a corporation are taxed at the corporate level, then taxed again when distributed to the owners as dividends.

Curiously enough, if one eliminated corporate taxes, so that corporate owners could minimize their tax burdens by keeping more money tied up in the corporate structure (meaning in a bank account or investment account), that would greatly expand the investment base in this country, which would make the economy considerably more robust and resilient. Tax revenues overall would increase, and unemployment would remain low.

Of course, class warfare rhetoric makes such pragmatic concepts unthinkable.

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RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 3:33:52 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

"After World War II, the nation's tax bill was roughly split between corporations and individuals. But after years of changes in the federal tax code and international economy, the corporate share of taxes has declined to a fourth the amount individuals pay, according to the US Office of Management and Budget."

I would not call that a bad thing. Corporations are not people. They don't vote and cannot be represented in Congress.

Corporate income tax generally represents double taxation. Profits in a corporation are taxed at the corporate level, then taxed again when distributed to the owners as dividends.

Curiously enough, if one eliminated corporate taxes, so that corporate owners could minimize their tax burdens by keeping more money tied up in the corporate structure (meaning in a bank account or investment account), that would greatly expand the investment base in this country, which would make the economy considerably more robust and resilient. Tax revenues overall would increase, and unemployment would remain low.

Of course, class warfare rhetoric makes such pragmatic concepts unthinkable.

And don't forget one other thing, Celtic...the top 10% of earners in this country pay well over 70% of all the tax base that the government operates from.

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RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 5:03:22 PM

MstrObjectmaker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: masternoname

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrObjectmaker

I mean the only section of the US population that can be truly classed as "American" are the North American Indian nations and look what a bum deal they've been given by you other American immigrants......

I think technically it was the British and the French who came over and started using and abusing the native folk. But I suppose if you really need a reason to hate the US and have to go back a couple hundred years to find it, we can ignore that point.

I think you will find that it was infact the Americans after independance that began to seriously abuse the native American Indians.........

Wasn't that what the Indian wars were all about?

The huge land grab in the west!

Who said I hated the US, I love the US........The Architecture, music, automotive and film culture.......The actual scenic splender of the states......infact some of my best friends are Americans........

After all one of my dreams is to own and ride a Harley and you can't get more American culture than that.......lol

(in reply to masternoname)

RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 5:07:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

FRESNO, Calif, June 3, 2008

(AP) The valedictorian at Fresno's Bullard High School won't be attending college in the United States this fall because he's scheduled to be deported.

Seventeen-year-old Arthur Mkoyan's 4.0 grade-point average qualified him to enter one of the state's top universities. But he and his mother have been ordered back to Armenia after their last appeal for asylum failed.

The family fled from what used to be part of the Soviet Union and has been seeking asylum since 1992.

A spokeswoman for Immigration and Customs Enforcement says they were given an extension until June 20 so Mkoyan could attend his graduation ceremony.

A federal bill called the DREAM Act that would have given some high-performing illegal immigrants legal status to attend college stalled last year in Congress.

CBS

Reactions? Suggestions? Emotions?

Immigrnts seeking entrance based on claims of persecution and the need for political aslymn represent an especially thorny issue.

It's clear we cannot become the safe haven for every area of the world in which crimes against humanity are committed...we simply do not have the resources.

It's also clear that the INS handles visa requests based on aslymn in a hap-hazard manner with almost no apparent regard for the P/pl affected.

This particular case IMO is one in which INS has certainly shown its azz. That doesn't help answer any of the bigger questions though.

My suggestion is: fire everyone at INS above the entrance level, hire all new employees from the private sector, and hold each and every dayum one of them to performance standards that are measurable, fair and public.

pinksugarsub

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(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 5:24:18 PM

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I have learned to stay out of immigration threads, because it always strays so far from the original point. So, for those who were unclear on the original situation:

A more complete version of the story can be found here in our local paper (it continues to a second page).

The boy was born in Armenia. What I'm not really understanding is that Fresno has a HUGE Armenian population, and thousands of people fled here from Armenia and were granted asylum. For whatever reason, the father could not prove that returning to his homeland would be dangerous. All I can think is that he had rather faulty assistance in his fight.

Cali

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RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 5:30:07 PM

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Good catch, Moloch. Yup, it lasted until 1991...

So 1992 to 2008 = 16 years for the young man in question.

I still can't figure out how a young man can live his whole life here and still be deported on some technicalities. I hasten to add that it seems impossible that he can put his life back together very easily in the land of his parents. He's probably going to fall though the cracks one way or another.

(in reply to Moloch)

RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 5:31:12 PM

cjan

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quote:

celticlord quote:

Corporations are not people. They don't vote and cannot be represented in Congress.

Oh, my...did you really say that, m'laird ? Can you really think that ? I guess so, and , somehow, I'm not a bit surprised.

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RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 6:29:59 PM

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quote:

h, my...did you really say that, m'laird ? Can you really think that ? I guess so, and , somehow, I'm not a bit surprised.

Name one corporation that has cast a ballot in any election. Name one corporation that is a registered voter anywhere in the US.

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RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 6:38:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Corporations are not people. They don't vote and cannot be represented in Congress.

Yes, that's how the idea of the corporation arose: make an interest group a legal person with all the advantages and none of the responsibilities. The corporation turned out to become one of the most evil ideas ever to arose out of this wonderful capitalist economy you so admire

. Devious brilliance.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 6/4/2008 6:47:26 PM >

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RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 6:46:18 PM

cjan

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M'laird, notice the part of your quoted statement that I underlined.

quote:

celticlord quote:
Corporations are not people. They don't vote and cannot be represented in Congress.

That's laughable and even you must know it. Special interests, including corporations with deep pockets that make PAC contributions to Congressional candidates call the tune. Everyone knows that !

As usual, your "arguments" are all smoke and no fire. But, it's weak, weak, weak...

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 6:46:35 PM

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Thanks for the link.

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RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 6:47:25 PM

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quote:

The corporation turned out to become one of the most evil ideas ever to arose out of this wonderful capitalist economy you so admire

Kittin, there are no evil ideas in economics. Marx was not evil, merely wrong.

Capitalism is the way the world works naturally--it exists despite the best efforts of the socialist saints who know what's best for mankind.

Capitalism is the order of things.

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(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 6:48:45 PM

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So somebody is denying the existence of the 'Iron Triangle' hmmm?

http://home.att.net/~standardsalert_topics/B_law_tax_I_Triangle.htm#_Toc108078439

(in reply to cjan)

RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 6:49:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Capitalism is the order of things.

I just knew you were going to say that ROFL!!! How many times have you said "that is the order of things", in your estimation :-) ?

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 6/4/2008 6:50:57 PM >

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RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 7:13:29 PM

MzMia

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He just came to the USA, the wrong way.
The best way to come here illegally, is just come across the border
through Mexico, like everyone else.

Damn didn't he get the memo or the book?
The New York Times > National > The Everymigrant's Guide to Crossing the Border Illegally

< Message edited by MzMia -- 6/4/2008 7:20:48 PM >

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RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 7:17:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Capitalism is the order of things.

I just knew you were going to say that ROFL!!! How many times have you said "that is the order of things", in your estimation :-) ?

Several thousand and counting. It is an efficient phrase.

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(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. - 6/4/2008 7:22:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

M'laird, notice the part of your quoted statement that I underlined.

quote:

celticlord quote:
Corporations are not people. They don't vote and cannot be represented in Congress.

That's laughable and even you must know it. Special interests, including corporations with deep pockets that make PAC contributions to Congressional candidates call the tune. Everyone knows that !

As usual, your "arguments" are all smoke and no fire. But, it's weak, weak, weak...

Name one corporation that casts a ballot in an election. Name one corporation that is a registered voter.

Just one.

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(in reply to cjan)

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