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Married? Married! - 7/24/2004 6:13:27 PM

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Joined: 6/18/2004
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I am concerned about a problem I'm running into. In my past life most of my experience has been with members of close-knit clubs in Texas where everyone knew everyone and BDSM was, if it involved the married--a 'couple' event. And everybody got to play (if they were't 'exclusive' to each other--some were).

Things are different online. I have been approached by a number of male submissives who state upfront they are married. They usually say their wife knows something about their secret yearnings--but is too vanilla to become dom herself--and they say their wives maintain a 'don't tell me about it' attitude. At least, that's what I've been told. And I know it's possible, certainly.
Guys see professionals all the time for that very reason.
What are these subs telling their wives? "She beats me?"
(And where does being fucked with a strap-on or toy come in?)

I'd love to hold "How to Dom Your Husband" classes, but--otherwise--should I believe these subs and consider them for play? I am not looking for long-term 24/7 commitment--just some subs to play with.

Your thoughts would be appreciated. Personal experiences with problems associated with this topic also appreciated.

--Lady Whipenrod

RE: Married? Married! - 7/24/2004 6:30:57 PM

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To each his/her own. I think it’s important for people to be upfront about their relationship status, whether it is married, in a committed relationship or seeing someone.

It’s also important that someone states what he/she is looking for. For every single desire, there is a desire to compliment it. If the married people aren’t for you, perhaps put it in your profile. You’ll most likely weed out a lot.

I have Dominated two married men who told me that their wife was aware. We didn’t have sex. We simply had a dynamic based on Domination/submission and sadomasochism. It suited me just fine at the time. Depending on where I am in my life, it may suit me just fine again. In talking with these men, they had a wonderful friendship with their wives and beautiful families. They had kinks that their wives did not want to partake in, i.e.: their wives would not have attended your "How to Dom Your Husband" classes.

On the reverse note, there are a lot of Dominants who are in committed relationships with either strong vanilla partners or even Dominant mates and have subs on the side, either as live in, regular or occasional basis.

I simply suggest that we do what feels right to us, that we be upfront and honest and that we all live and let live.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Whipenrod)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/24/2004 7:40:00 PM

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I have a general rule about married submissives (male or female). Having said that, please allow me to note that it's a 'general rule' and that inevitably my final choices will be somewhat situational.

My general rule for married play partners is a question: Can I be, at least casually, acquainted with your significant other? If the answer is no, then the only possibility is a professional relationship (and I havent been overly amenable to new relationships of this sort in a couple of years). As with any professional relationship your confidentiality needs would be high on my list of priorities.

But in my personal life I don't live in anything but "out" and I will not sneak for anyone. I'm not even willing to put myself in the position of it possibly happening. That's a personal choice, others may feel differently.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to Whipenrod)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/24/2004 8:02:05 PM

Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline

quote:

have Dominated two married men who told me that their wife was aware. We didn’t have sex. We simply had a dynamic based on Domination/submission and sadomasochism. It suited me just fine at the time. Depending on where I am in my life, it may suit me just fine again. In talking with these men, they had a wonderful friendship with their wives and beautiful families. They had kinks that their wives did not want to partake in, i.e.: their wives would not have attended your "How to Dom Your Husband" classes.

I had a very interesting experience not long ago with one of my subs, who is a professional male, and married to a *vanilla* wife, very "straight laced", etc. His main *kink* is chastity, and wearing a device when on business trips. I had no doubt that he was for real, and that his situation was exactly as he said it was. My position was one of distance, time, and "how in the world am I gonna do this??? lol He was so sincere that with time and effort, we worked it out, and we have both grown as a result.

It was also my position not to be involved in his *vanilla* life/marraige in any way. However, our subs talk to us, and as a result I did get involved. It was his goal to perhaps subtly encourage, or "train" her to Domme him. It wasn't working, and she was non-responsive, gone with girlfriends "shopping" all the time, and he actually wondered if she may be having an affair.

This perplexed me. This woman had everything. A successful male who adored her, provided a beautiful home, financial security, and the bubble baths too!

She'd say "kiss here" and he was spot on!! I couldn't figure it out. Until another of my subs said, "She wants him to dom her." And I realized immediately, that he was right. lol

That was a little more difficult to accomplish, because while he is professionally and socially a very aggressive and well respected man, he is also submissive. To make the transition from doing the dishes , and pampering her, to expecting dinner at a certain time, choosing what she would wear on any given outing, and watching her as she dressed (from panties to zipping her dress and slipping her shoes on), and encouraging her, teaching her how to pamper him, took some time, but turned out to be just what they needed to put the spark back in their marraige and get them back where they both wanted to be.

As Dominant Women, we think that if women learn to "Domme their husbands" things would be alright and subbie hubbies wouldn't seek a Mistress outside of the marraige. But I've learned that all wives aren't Domme material. lol

That particular sub doesn't see this as dominating her. He sees it as submitting to her need to be submissive. Whatever!!! lol She is whispering to her girlfriends, "He's sooooooo aggressive!" with that flush in her cheeks.

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/24/2004 8:17:09 PM

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Beckett,

What a great story! I have said many times that I never minded losing a sub to their wife. It's a really kewl thing to see happen. I found that quite often all a submissive needs is to be reassured that they aren't freaks for their desires. The self esteem kicks in, the willingness to take personal risks in sharing with the spouse starts happening and things open up for them.

I know a submissive man whose hard limit is that he is not allowed any sort of genital pleasure at all and NO orgasms. His orgasm has nothing to do with our relationship, nor is there any teasing. I found it to be right in keeping with my own attitude.

He adores his wife. Every millimeter of her, just as she is. He'd like it if she were more overtly dominant, but it's not really part of her makeup. So he serves her in his own mind, tends to her needs in the day to day, is an incredible romantic especially on special occasions and sees 'friends' to get his pain fix. They've been together almost 30 years, I think.

This man and I shared some incredible times. He's a keeper (close to my heart), but he belonged to his wife (as it should be) - always.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to LadyBeckett)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/24/2004 8:32:02 PM

Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
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quote:

This man and I shared some incredible times. He's a keeper (close to my heart), but he belonged to his wife (as it should be) - always.

Suz, we really must keep meeting like this.

Once again.....Ditto!

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to MizSuz)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/25/2004 12:25:40 AM

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Joined: 4/26/2004
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Hello,

I have a fairly general albeit strict guideline.

I will NOT get involved with a person currently in a relationship.

She wants to be with me, she needs to end the relationship she is in, GRIEVE for the loss of this relationship, and after this is all taken care of, if she still wants to be with me we can discuss it.

While I imagine it could be said that I am insisting she leave her existing relationship without guarantee that she will be with me, I would respond what would stop this person from doing the same thing to me that she is doing with her current relationship.

Good things come to those who wait.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to LadyBeckett)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/25/2004 9:13:27 AM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

My partner and I are currently looking for play partners (ie, people we are friends with and can play with, without the comitment of a relationship).

We personally have no problem with people who are married, as long as the partner -knows- that his/her husband/wife is looking and activly invovled with someone. For us that means actually meeting the husband/wife in person and talking to them. Needless to say this elliminates most married people we talk to.

I personally will not even chat online with someone who is cheating. I personally believe that if one is going outside the relationship, one should tell ones partner and give the partner a chance to leave.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/25/2004 9:27:01 AM

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Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

I noticed a married Domina in my area wanting a relationship that hubby would not be involved in. She explained he knew of her proclivities and wanted no part.

I asked her if I could talk to her hubby.

She called me the most impertinent unsubmissive man she ever heard from.

(Hey, being called names is better than having an enraged husband shot her then walk to the tied up me and say, "This will be real slow. Let's see if you beg me for merciful death.")

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to Whipenrod)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/25/2004 10:39:23 AM

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Joined: 2/6/2004
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When it comes to such a moral question, I think there is no advise that can direct your personal choices. My experiences would only benefit my growth in the lifestyle. I can debate with the best of them, but in the end no one should direct anothers moral code of ethics. My only advice is think through your own views on life, then decide. Stay safe. Sundew

_____________________________

~~~~~Enjoy the ride, the landing could get painful~~~~

(in reply to Whipenrod)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/25/2004 4:24:31 PM

MistressZanthia

Posts: 88
Joined: 7/2/2004
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
Status: offline

I mirror your thoughts ladies. But I do not consider married boys in any other way than as professional relationships. I know how it's all too easy to let your heart get involved should it become a more "personal" relationship. And I simply do not believe in interfering with some other woman's marriage. I know how I'd feel... betrayal isn't kind. It's still stepping on someone else's turf, and generally if pushed these marrieds wouldn't let you verify with the wife that it's OK with her you play with him, why? Because 9 times out of 10 he's lying to you (she may know his tendencies) but it's a good bet she doesn't know he's actually doing something about it and stepping out on her with you. This has been my experience, when a married boy has been pushed to the wall about it. Truth comes out, the wife is clueless.

So a rule of thumb for me is this: Married or otherwise engaged, emotionally entangled, etc, submissives are professional only, no sexplay and I will not get emotionally attached to them. I will care for them while they are in my hands, I will nurture what about them I can, but my emotional "line in the sand" is set in concrete.

Unfortunately it's sad that so many lovely submissives happened to marry vanilla or worse yet another submissive, but it sounds like he found a creative work around for it. I don't doubt that these relationships can work, but it takes two heads and hearts together on it... not three.

_____________________________

~*Zan*~
www.zanthia.com

(in reply to Sundew02)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/25/2004 5:07:34 PM

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressZanthia

But I do not consider married boys in any other way than as professional relationships. I know how it's all too easy to let your heart get involved should it become a more "personal" relationship. And I simply do not believe in interfering with some other woman's marriage. I know how I'd feel... betrayal isn't kind.

So a rule of thumb for me is this: Married or otherwise engaged, emotionally entangled, etc, submissives are professional only, no sexplay and I will not get emotionally attached to them. I will care for them while they are in my hands, I will nurture what about them I can, but my emotional "line in the sand" is set in concrete.

So very well said. The way I figure it, he/she is not emotionally available to be a significant personal in my life. I must be first to allow myself to invest at that level. A married or involved person cannot put me first. Keeping it professional is another way to keep the boundaries very clear (and I mean that from both directions).

I do wish to stress, though, that I have some professional relationships that are very dear to me. I do not think that professional relationships have to be cold and disconnected, as many who have seen pros claim. However, I consider myself very open to experiencing things on different levels and I'm more interested in the individual than in how I can make them fit into a cookie cutter or blanket rule. Perhaps those pros who are aloof with their clients simply don't know how to allow themself to get close while still maintaining the proper boundaries. <shrug> Who knows?

< Message edited by MizSuz -- 7/25/2004 5:08:04 PM >

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to MistressZanthia)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/25/2004 6:42:44 PM

Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline

quote:

Perhaps those pros who are aloof with their clients simply don't know how to allow themself to get close while still maintaining the proper boundaries.

I thought about that, and then I considered that there may also exist the possibility that they choose not to get close. Which would actually free them up to excel in their field of choice. Not having all of that emotional clutter with their clients, and all.

quote:

Original: MistressZanthia

And I simply do not believe in interfering with some other woman's marriage. I know how I'd feel... betrayal isn't kind.

Have you ever suggested to a male that he buy another woman flowers? I've suggested that to my brother (for his wife), and just today I had a two hour "Mother and Son" talk, that involved some suggestions on expressing his dominance, in his marraige, in a more positive way. Which included some ideas.

In both situations, technically, I am interfering in the marraige of another woman. Assuming that there are not "degrees" of rightness, or wrongness, then I was wrong. Correct? Nevermind that tonight there will be some laughing, giggling, spanking, and the temperature will go up a little bit over on Boone Drive. lol It isn't just about playing, of course, but opening another door in communication as well.

As a Mistress with ads on sites like collarme and alt.com, I get a LOT of email from a wide variety of characters. lol In that mix there are some professional and socially agressive males with a chastity fetish, or a panty fetish, command fetish, or any number of harmless fetishes that their "vanilla" wives or lovers would think were too "kinky" for them. She goes to her girlfriend and says, "My hubbie/guy is a lawyer, plays soccer, his body is nothing but rippling muscles, and my knees get weak every time I think about last night. *sigh* But he likes to wear panties!!!!!!!! What do I dooooooo????" And the other "vanilla" girlfriend says, "Get rid of him before he tries to kill you in your sleep or something! Oh, and don't leave him alone with FiFi!!!!" Then she goes and tells a friend, and the friend go and tells her beautician...the guy's social and professional life are ruined.

I talked to the sub I mentioned earlier, just this afternoon. Apparently they've been "switching" roles, lol. They call it a "partnership". If they like it, I love it!! It sounds to me like they are getting along nicely. So when he says, "Thank you, Mistress." I don't feel guilty.

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to MizSuz)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/25/2004 7:36:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett

quote:

Perhaps those pros who are aloof with their clients simply don't know how to allow themself to get close while still maintaining the proper boundaries.

I thought about that, and then I considered that there may also exist the possibility that they choose not to get close. Which would actually free them up to excel in their field of choice. Not having all of that emotional clutter with their clients, and all.

Most definitely there are many like that. It didn't work for me as a pro. I could never take a session with someone who 'expected their money's worth' or from someone who really only wanted their kink addressed and had little if any thought to a relationship with Suz the woman. I'm not talking about sexual intimacy, but taking risks and sharing and growing with each other. This is why I stopped pro domming for a living. I just could not get my head around the 'service provider' mentality and wasn't even willing to deal with someone who saw it that way. I know a LOT of women who do just that (disconnect) in their professional lives. I suspect these are the people the subs who say "I went to see pros but found it hollow" are seeing. I can't see where it's a win/win this way, but realize that for many it's the perfect situation.

As for being connected to my clients, I don't think of it as emotional clutter. The boundaries are clearly drawn and I'm really good at maintaining them. As was said earlier, somethings are written in concrete. Yes, there are some down sides to having an emotional connection with someone that can never be a significant other, but perspective can take care of that. And there is so much positive that can be had that if the potential is there to connect I recommend it.

Just watch those boundaries.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to LadyBeckett)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/25/2004 8:27:26 PM

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quote:

I mirror your thoughts ladies. But I do not consider married boys in any other way than as professional relationships.

I'm not a Pro Domme. But when I do play with someone who I know can never really be mine, I do approach the situation with a different attitude. And no, there is no sex involved. There is always tenderness however after the scene, ie: them laying their head in lap and us talking.

I do however welcome the opportunity to play and sometimes I find I can go quite far into it, knowing there is some sort of distance.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to MistressZanthia)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/26/2004 12:18:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whipenrod

Things are different online. I have been approached by a number of male submissives who state upfront they are married. They usually say their wife knows something about their secret yearnings--but is too vanilla to become dom herself--and they say their wives maintain a 'don't tell me about it' attitude. At least, that's what I've been told.

Your thoughts would be appreciated. Personal experiences with problems associated with this topic also appreciated.

--Lady Whipenrod

L. Whipnrod-
I can only speak from personal feelings on each subject, and I'm sure not everyone will not agree with me, but I believe in HONESTY. That is a word that has different meanings to different people. In this instance, I think that honesty would include knowing that his/her significant other was aware of what was going on. I think that the bottom line in BDSM interaction is trust, and I (personally) am not going help somone be dishonest. I feel that meeting somone for an intimate (not necessarily sexual) encounter is somthing that needs to be shared. If the two parties are not in agreement on (what I feel to be) a basic understanding that is needed in any relationship, then getting involved is wrong.
I want to make it clear that these are my personal feelings and yes, they are related to problems I've had with similar issues in the past.
As Always
Berlin

(in reply to Whipenrod)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/26/2004 12:20:17 AM

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Joined: 7/3/2004
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Lady Beckett-
I found your story sooooo romantic.
As Always-
Berlin

(in reply to LadyBeckett)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/26/2004 7:01:32 AM

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Joined: 6/18/2004
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Dear All

Thank you for your input. I have not met any married subs in person yet.

Otherwise--yes there are problems. One commented on not upsetting the 'sancity' of the marriage and didn't want to take calls at home.

I have been playing 'phone tag with these subs because of this.
Inflexability for meetings. Wondering what happens when I load my car with equipment then find out he 'had to make other plans'.
And I enjoy the sexual aspects.
Miz Sue:
"Can I be, at least casually, acquainted with your significant other? If the answer is no, then the only possibility is a professional relationship"
A better idea--but why should I get into this if I am going to miss the sexual play? (Other than trying out what a 'professional relationship' would be like).
But yes--if I am to get involved I would want to be able to tell a story like yours, Lady Beckett (see above for complete story!)--I guess what these women married their husbands for was their outward personality--the 'take charge' guy--not the submissive hiding inside. The woman wanted THAT--not to learn to be a dominant--which I would be willing to do BUT maybe I would be swimming upstream.

Addressing Female Supremacy ideas, cheating on a wife seems anti-female.

When I have in-person meetings I will be addressing these concerns and seeing what happens when I ask to meet the wife, as you suggested,
Perverseangelic:
" We personally have no problem with people who are married, as long as the partner -knows- that his/her husband/wife is looking and activly invovled with someone. For us that means actually meeting the husband/wife in person and talking to them. Needless to say this elliminates most married people we talk to."

I am looking to aid relationships--not be responsible for breaking them up.
If the relationship is unhealthy--then this could tip it. A Dom I know when approached by sub women who are married says point-blank: This will get you a divorce. Do you want that? Most women just want to 'play' and not destroy their marriage--they back off.

Thank you so much for all your ideas and insights--I enjoyed 'meeting' all of you too!

Warmly,
Lady Whipenrod

< Message edited by Whipenrod -- 7/26/2004 7:06:05 AM >

(in reply to Whipenrod)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/26/2004 7:31:59 AM

Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz

Just watch those boundaries.

*GASP* "Boundaries"????? Are WE supposed to have those????????

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to MizSuz)

RE: Married? Married! - 7/26/2004 4:19:07 PM

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Whipenrod,

I’d like to address a few things you said simply to give you my perspective on them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whipenrod
Addressing Female Supremacy ideas, cheating on a wife seems anti-female.

Not all Dommes believe in female supremacy. I don’t. I believe we all have potential and we all chose to maximise it or not. And those that do are supreme. There are as many twit women as there are twit men.

And by the female supremacy rationale… there would be less of an issue if I Domme a married woman? (I’ve never dommed one but I have had sex with one or two… or three)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whipenrod
I am looking to aid relationships--not be responsible for breaking them up.
If the relationship is unhealthy--then this could tip it. A Dom I know when approached by sub women who are married says point-blank: This will get you a divorce. Do you want that? Most women just want to 'play' and not destroy their marriage--they back off.

I’ll be straightforward and say that I’m not really into the whole marriage thing. But I respect people’s choice to do it. I’ve even been a bride’s maid twice! But sometimes, if people are so mismatched that they are miserable, perhaps they should not be together.

If a marriage is going to break, it’s going to break, regardless of if you Domme the person or not. As I mentioned, in my encounters with married men, they did not want to leave their wives. They wanted to experiment. Most of the people I know who experimented outside their marriage or committed relationships remained happily married or committed after the fact.

I’m a Domme. Not a marriage counsellor. And the men and women I exchange with are adults. I take their word.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whipenrod
A better idea--but why should I get into this if I am going to miss the sexual play? (Other than trying out what a 'professional relationship' would be like).

And not a Pro Domme so I do all of this for pleasure.

The sexual aspect of BDSM with someone I have deep feelings for is awesome. In fact, there is nothing more thrilling. But if it is purely a desire to play S&M, then I don’t need sex with it. I realise everyone is different on this subject. I was just trying to point that out.

I love the diversity of opinions on this subject. I gather some of it has to do with our own views on marriage, relationships, upbringing, life experiences and culture.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Whipenrod)

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