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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 12:02:02 PM

Philosopher13

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It has been explained pretty extensively here. The sub is in power in a D/s relationship because SHE CREATES THE RULES AND BOUNDARIES. How much more cut and dry can you get?

Gregory
"One man with courage is a majority" Thomas Jefferson

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 12:06:37 PM

akisha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Philosopher13

We fundamentally see sub and slaves completely differently to compound this even more. I personally don't think subs can become slaves. They are wired completely differently. Subs always look at things in terms of them and what the relationship can do for them. A slave looks at the relationship as how she can make someone else happy and how best she can serve that persons needs. A slave basically sacrifices herself to a Master and vicariously receives pleasure from his happiness. I will be waiting for all the stones to fly my way.

Gregory
"One man with courage is a majority" Thomas Jefferson

OMG that is such BS.

I am a submissive, and I'm sorry but i do everything I can to make sure my Master is taken care of first and formost with only the exception of my lil bit.

Get off your high friggin horse and pull your head outta your butt.

The section I truned red and itallicced (damn copy and past doesn't work on here so well) Is EXACTLY, how i live my life with my Master and I do not nor have I ever classified myself as a slave.

Everyone has the right to use the classifiacation they choose that they feel best represents their life.

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 12:09:08 PM

akisha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Philosopher13

It has been explained pretty extensively here. The sub is in power in a D/s relationship because SHE CREATES THE RULES AND BOUNDARIES. How much more cut and dry can you get?

Gregory
"One man with courage is a majority" Thomas Jefferson

No she or he does not create the rules and boundries. The sub and the Domiant NEGOTIATE the terms and conditions.

Very large difference

I think you are confusing subs and bottoms. You might want to look into that and clarify what it is you are actually talking about.

< Message edited by akisha -- 8/7/2008 12:10:11 PM >

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 12:19:57 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Philosopher13

I really truely believe that people should be able to define their relationships how they see them or want to see them. We all have brains that all see things differently and god forbid than others should tell us how something so creative and individual as a relationship should be defined BUT I will repeat this part again we need basic outlines of how relationships work or definitions are meaningless.or want to see them. We all have brains that all see things differently and god forbid than others should tell us how something so creative and individual as a relationship should be defined BUT I will repeat this part again we need basic outlines of how relationships work or definitions are meaningless.

It is all very well trying to stick labels on people, but the problem is that there are so many varying view points. You make some derogatory viewpoint about D/s because it doesnt fit in with "Your" thinking on what a M/s relationship should be.

Firstly, you assume the slave makes the rules, not from my pov, i dont make any rules. I do, however, have limits on certain activities and this has nothing to do with trust, but everything to do with how i want to be involved with someone. If i didnt have deep trust, i wouldnt let someone tie me up in the first place. i also know some who ideentify as slaves, still have certain activities they wont take part in. Who are we to tell them " Well that doesnt make you a slave then "

Secondly you assume BDSM is at the core of a D/s relationship, for some yes, for others not. Again i know people who identify as a D/s couple that dont use BDSM to any degree, other than fun in the bedroom.

Thirdly you assume that pissing into someones mouth is spirital if done during an M/s relationship but not if done in a D/s relationship. Let me tell you quite clearly, if i ever let a Domme piss in my mouth, there damn well needs to be some bonding going on between us, as i consider it a very intimate act.

That said, we are back to square one, your views dont tally with mine, and thats fine and dandy, but cut out the superiority act as its hardly philosphical. Your own words dont come across in your post.

quote:

I really truely believe that people should be able to define their relationships how they see them

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 12:49:43 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

I don't have anything to say. I just realized that I was male and had a big ego, so I should post here.

*laughs as he thumbs through his collarme manual*

Ah yes, right there on page 37.

*makes his own obligatory post*

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 1:00:10 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Philosopher13

It has been explained pretty extensively here. The sub is in power in a D/s relationship because SHE CREATES THE RULES AND BOUNDARIES. How much more cut and dry can you get?

Gregory
"One man with courage is a majority" Thomas Jefferson

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 1:09:39 PM

Philosopher13

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Here is a perfect example to make this about as clear as it is going to get. Lets use needle play for the example. In D/s if a sub does not wish to partake in needle play she creates a hard limit and whether the Dom enjoys needle play or not he will not be using needles with this sub because of fear or whatever reason she has. If the same Dom meets another sub who enjoys needle play then they will likely use needle play in their dynamic. The subs in examples dictated the rules and bondaries. In what I understand of D/s which I explained before, (I have never been a Dom so all I can base my thoughts on are what I see) is that as the last two posters pointed out is they may or may not involve needles into their play but it is play that is the key the core of the relationship revolves around the acts involving BDSM as in this example of needle play. As far as the differences between T/b and D/s, T/b is completely about role play for a scene where as D/s is more about a relationship between two or more people than involves BDSM activities or roleplay or fetishplay or whatever play. But again the key is the BDSM is at the core of the relationship whether it be only in the bedroom or a 24/7 relationship that resembles a M/s relationship similar to the old souths idea of slavery. I will reinterate D/s in my example is an over simplification I do realize that there is emotional and spirtual dynamics involved in most D/s relationships as well as some power exchange but it is still a completely different dynamic from the onset.
M/s on the other hand uses BDSM as a tool. So for our example of needle play, it doesn't matter whether the slave enjoys needle play or would choose it too be a hard limit if she were in a D/s relationship, the Master will use needle play if he chooses too, to test his slave. So it isn't about the BDSM but about using BDSM as a tool. In other words power exchange is at the core of M/s and BDSM is collateral in the M/s relationship.
Again comparing M/s to D/s is like comparing football to basketball.

Gregory
"One man with courage is a majority" Thomas Jefferson

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 1:18:36 PM

OnlyHisLovebug

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You are right...it's about as clear as it's going to get- for You. You have tunnel vision. You want to have certain definitions and standards in place- and You want them to be determined by You. Which is fine and good- in Your relationships. However, Your definitions and ideas in NO way fit with my reality- or the reality of many others that have posted here. All of which, BTW, happen to be just as valid as Yours.

Edited to add:

You wrote: "I am all about taking the basic outline and extrapolating however anyone wants but I would all think it would be a benefit to everyone to have a base from where to start to define our relationships directions." Okay, let me play devil's advocate here. Suppose anyone agrees with this premise. WHO is going to develop that base? Who will define it? How will they make people adhere to their definitions? It they are definitions you don't accept- then what? Are we going to have the BDSM police bar you from the 'lifestyle'? Going to have to show ID to prove you are a card carrying member of the club that knows the RIGHT way to go about this? It's not only elitist, impossible to provision for, but it simply makes no practical sense.

< Message edited by OnlyHisLovebug -- 8/7/2008 1:29:12 PM >

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 1:33:00 PM

leadership527

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To Philospher13:

OK, first to your needle play example. So what you're suggesting is that if my wife was going to have a hard limit around needle play, then she can't be my slave? In fact, if she has ANY hard limit, then she cannot be my slave? So the only thing that constitutes a slave is someone with no hard limits? Someone who will never, ever, under any possible circumstances say "no"? If I were to command mine to do needle play with me, even if she complied, it would break her. So then is that what I want out of her? Obedience at ALL costs? Even at the cost of our marriage? Thanks but no thanks. Personally, as the dominant, I prefer the safety net of knowing that she will reject such commands when I inevitably screw up by issuing them. That is a part of how she serves me (and herself)... by remembering that my #1 priority is not being her Master, it is our marriage.

Now, trying to read into your post and try to understand your concepts....

To you, it appears that BDSM is only sex/kink. For me, it includes the middle part... D/s and a M/s relationship is a subset of D/s relationships. Now, I grant you, that in common usage, it appears that the phrase BDSM is primarily used by people who hit or like to get hit. It is for that reason that if someone were to ask me, "Are you into BDSM?" I would say "no" despite the fact that my wife wears my collar, obeys me, etc. So I think that yet again, you are applying definitions to these thigns that are not shared by everyone else... or at least not by me. In the interests of not being vague, here's my definition for what it's worth (insert mandatory disclaimer here).

A submssive obeys another within the limits and boundaries as defined by the submissive. Those limits and boundaries are owned and protected by the submissive and if they morph over time, it is with the submissives active agreement. A slave is a submissive who has entrusted the care of those boundaries and limits over to her Master. This doesn't mean that they don't exist and that there are not consequences for stepping over them. It just means that the Master is now responsible for them and for ALL the consequences that flow from their management -- both good and bad.

That is my definition. FOR ME, I find it internally consistent and practical as I said above. I know for a fact that it is not shared by a TON of other people. Using that definition, if I were to command my wife to engage in needle play, then the mistake was on my part, not hers. I did not honor the trust she placed in me when she handed her limits and boundaries and, in fact, her very self over to me. If anything, I would say that I was a bad master, not that she was a bad slave.

You clearly also have such definitions and that's fine also. You're only mistake is in thinking that your definitions can or should apply to anyone else. In the end, as has been said a zillion times in such threads, labels such as sub and slave can never actually capture a human anyway. They are only useful as an initial starting point for a conversation to try to make some sort of uneducated guess as to whether two people are even in the same ballpark or not. Even then, they are fallible tools.

In this case, you and I do not agree and it's unlikely that we ever will. Neither of us will ever be right or wrong because there is no outside party... no canonical source... to ever make a ruling on that. We can only draw what insights we can from the other person's views which may or may not modify or our own in some way.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 1:36:46 PM

Philosopher13

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OK, I know that to you this is a cut and dried statement. But I am honestly and openly saying to you that it isn't to me. In ANY relationship, both partners have ultimate veto authority. Ergo, when it gets down to it, they both have power all the time. So if you think of that as what it's all about, then I don't see how you're ever going to get an unequal power dynamic going on. Further, even ignoring such extremes as disolution of the relationship, my slave has a TON of power over me. She got that power the moment I fell in love with her and there is not a single thing I can or want to do about that. Our two interests are so mutually intertwined that I don't even grasp the idea of "her boundaries" and "my desires". How could I POSSIBLY have a desire that would harm her? By definition, since her happiness is essential to my own, that's not possible. Regarding the whole TPE thing... I shun that as ridiculous. Totalities don't apply to humans. I see it as pointless to try to define a term based on something that is necessarily incorrect itself.

Like most people on this site, I have a working definition of sub and slave. That definition gets modified over time as I learn new things. FOR ME, that definition is both practical and internally consistent. But I also recognize that that definition is only applicable to me. In the end, due to the lack of any canonical source, it's hard to really even call "sub" and "slave" words (see my sig).

What you are describing is a vanilla relationship with BDSM play. You negotiate "where do you want to go to dinner tonight subbie?" "So what are you hard and soft limits subbie?" "No Dommie I have a headache!"
M/s involves rules created by the Dominant party there is no negotiation. The dominant party creates the construct and the slaves lives under that construct. So you say what if the slave like to play golf and the Dom doesn't? Then it is up too the Dom to decide if he wants her to play golf. Would I deny a slave something that she loved probably not why would I the important this is she asks if she can play golf vs. telling me she is going to play golf. She has surrendered all decision making over to me. What is too stop her from having a career? Nothing its like all common sense is going out the window on this.
How regimented the M/s relationship is is up to the dominant party and as I explained prior i use military protocols as the different levels my slave is at. Attention is for training, at ease if for around the house doing basic chores, etc. At ease is for answering any questions she may have, having a discussion about what was on the news, attending some sort of activity like golf for example. When she is at ease she is free more or less to speak how she wants as long as there is respect rendered. This last bit is my example of M/s and how I do it others regiment is more hard core or less hard core depends on the Master and how he wants to do it. Some people just use attention and do it on a partime basis, there is nothing that says it has to be 24/7, the sky is the limit.
It should be very clear of the difference between what you describe and what I describe.

Gregory
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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 1:41:51 PM

Asmodeus

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Well I've never owned a slave and in the few weeks I've been in the scene the submissives I've been involved with all had one common need; an unfilled desire to serve. Period. I've made it clear that the relationship would be focused on what "I" wanted and if that didn't work for them, they could hit the road.

That being said, I have absolutely no desire to micromange anyone else's life and that doesn't make me any less a Master/Dominant. This lifestyle isn't a sex kink to me; it is strictly about power and control and I choose when I will exert that dominance. I don't need someone else's definition of what they think this life is about to be used to define me; in fact I would never allow such a thing to happen.

< Message edited by Asmodeus -- 8/7/2008 1:42:28 PM >

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 1:46:11 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Philospher13
What you are describing is a vanilla relationship with BDSM play.

That's fine. I accept that fully. To YOU and probably to quite a few other people on this site, what I have would not constitute a Master/slave relationship. It does to me though. This is what happens when there is no definition for words. Here's a different and less loaded example...

In New Jersey (at least 20 years ago), a regular coffee includes cream and sugar. That is to say, in that particular community, if you order a "coffee, regular please", you're going to get cream and sugar because that community has more or less universally decided on a meaning for that phrase. In california, however, a regular coffee is black. In that different community, a different meaning has more or less been agreed to. Which one of them is wrong?

Added this: Note that that doesn't make threads such as this useless. In the coffee example, someone who didn't know that there was a difference between the two "regular coffees" might well have learned something at the meta level about coffee and how it's handled. Just because our definitions are not universally shared does not mean that there isn't value in comparing how they are different.

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 8/7/2008 1:49:06 PM >

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 1:49:17 PM

Owner4SexSlave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Philosopher13

Greetings,
I have been here for a bit now and have noticed a plethora of subs calling themselves slaves. I realize different folks have different ideas of what and how things work but to me a slave is the submissive party in a M/s relationship and a M/s relationship's core premise is centered around TPE, the slaves complete surrender to the Master. So what gives?

Gregory
"One man with courage is a majority" Thomas Jefferson

Ironic, this is my own personal view on this matter. As much as I would love to debate and attempt to change other people's mind on it. lol..

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 2:03:38 PM

Philosopher13

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So you never push her limits? I would be doing slaves a diservice if I allowed them the power of negotiation. Facing fears and moving past those fears is a part of this as well. If you have an open door policy and she is afraid of needles for example and she is still there before and after you use those needles not only has she faced a fear but she has again proven her devotion. Again this goes back to the mental aspects of M/s the proverbial mind fuck if you will. The rope of the mind. The bond and spirtual unity created from this little example and a myriad of others blows the doors off any other relationship and the only way you can get any idea of what I am talking about on this part specifically is to experience it. You sew up a womans pussy for a day that is afraid of needles my friend and you will get a glimpse of what I am talking about, and don't forget this is under and open door policy.

Gregory
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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 2:05:11 PM

subtee

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 2:28:51 PM

IrishMist

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I love people who think in terms of one way fits all

They make for such humorous conversation

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 2:31:19 PM

AMaster

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AMaster just shakes his head and walks away muttering to himself........................

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 2:38:15 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Philosopher13

So you never push her limits? I would be doing slaves a diservice if I allowed them the power of negotiation. Facing fears and moving past those fears is a part of this as well. If you have an open door policy and she is afraid of needles for example and she is still there before and after you use those needles not only has she faced a fear but she has again proven her devotion. Again this goes back to the mental aspects of M/s the proverbial mind fuck if you will. The rope of the mind. The bond and spirtual unity created from this little example and a myriad of others blows the doors off any other relationship and the only way you can get any idea of what I am talking about on this part specifically is to experience it. You sew up a womans pussy for a day that is afraid of needles my friend and you will get a glimpse of what I am talking about, and don't forget this is under and open door policy.

Yup, I get it that you're not an ogre and that the things you are describing are consentual. However, when people start putting words in my mouth during a discussion in order to prove their point, then I pretty much assume that the conversation is done with. You have consistently held that your viewpoints are both the only right way AND are applicable to every other couple in the known universe. Honestly, a discussion board is not really the appropriate venue for a teaching type of information exchange. I'd recommend writing a book, web page, or maybe teaching a class if your intent is to instruct rather than discuss. I don't really think you're going to get a lot of folks here who are interested in being taught by you.

~jeff

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 2:39:29 PM

IrishMist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AMaster

AMaster just shakes his head and walks away muttering to himself........................

MUTTERING?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OHHHHH GOSH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Don't you know that on page 4 of the REAL TWUE MASTER MANUAL it says that MASTERS can NEVER, EVER mutter.

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RE: Slaves who are subs - 8/7/2008 2:45:02 PM

Philosopher13

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My only point in making this post was to give potential slaves something to read about to give them insight into me and what I am about. Additionally it was to scare the living shit out of any submissive or submissives that call themselves slaves, so they will steer far far away from me. Thanks for the help all of you folks, it was sincerly appreciated.

Gregory
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