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RE: Religion - 8/1/2004 9:00:18 AM

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SentForu- the "suffering" and "evil" questions have been key to many, if not most, if not all, religions throughout the ages and across the world. I won't go into a long rambling discourse on how they have been dealt with in the Judeo-Christian systems, or in other systems entirely independent of "personal deity/deities", as i simply would not do the topic justice. There are plenty of books dealing with either one of them in very specialized manner. A lot of them are extremely obstruse and somewhat irrelevant to the issues of suffering and perceived evil themselves, if you ask me.

Judging from your post alone, it seems that, as a person with sensitivity and compassion, you are distressed with the discrepancy between the religion you grew up with and the suffering in this world. I don't know what exactly you grew up with. Christianity is vast and varied, even within the confines of a single religious order within a single denomination. The same Sermon on the Mount was (and still is) a call for bloody battle to some, a call to poverty, service and prayer to others.

Just a hunch, but you might be interested in exploring the Franciscan Movement, founded by Francis and Clare of Assissi in the 12th C. It has its darknesses and distortions and corruptions, but it also has its enduring beauty and inspiration. A more up to date version might be Dorothy Day (cf. her autobiography "The Long Loneliness") and the Catholic Worker Movement. One may disagree with her politics, but she certainly lived her life with serious inquiry, dedication, faith, noble spirit, strong will and great compassion. These were (and are) all people who chose "not to serve the poor, but to become poor and serve their brothers", to live and embody the gospels with humility and compassion, who daily had/have to deal with much suffering and have had to wrestle with their doubt/faith and church doctrine. You might find some resonance in them.

Please forgive any erroneous assumptions/presumptions. I hope i haven't been too pedantic.....

(in reply to SentForu)

RE: Religion - 8/1/2004 9:55:01 AM

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From: Middle Tennessee
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Estring,
I honor your views completely, but my sense of morality comes from within, not without. I am who I have made myself. Everyone in general has been raised, by their parents or whomever, with a certain set of morals. I hold mine dearly. I have two children, who cause me value human life and morals even more than before. In my opinion, the point to having morals, is yourself and others you love. The standards come from us as people, not from some unseen force. What we have here, is a few little books written by MAN. Therefore, the morals and judgements involved, come from us. I agree, it's a hard world. But, we are who we make ourselves. We can't place blame on anyone but ourselves. Of course, I thank you, as always, for your opinion.

Jill,
I appreciate that you have been there before yourself.

iwill,
Flames????...lol. Not the intent of this thread. I was trying to avoid that at all costs. However, with a post like this, it's hard not to step on toes. I just place my opinions out there with as much respect to others as possible, as I'm sure you have as well.

basiasubrosa,
Thank you for your suggestions. I am not antireligion myself. I think that it is wonderful, if a person can believe in something with such passion. And of course, everyone is entitled to his or her own belief system.

Thanks again,
Myra

(in reply to Estring)

RE: Religion - 8/1/2004 11:32:46 AM

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I agree jill. My point is, what then is moral or immoral? If you have no standard, it will always be subjective. Then what is the point of being a moral person?

(in reply to jillwfsub4blkdom)

RE: Religion - 8/1/2004 11:38:06 AM

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So if someone feels it is perfectly moral to murder, who are you to say they are wrong? Their morality comes from within themselves just as yours does. How then can you state that they are wrong?

(in reply to SentForu)

RE: Religion - 8/1/2004 12:14:57 PM

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Was it Mao that said, "Morality comes from the barrel of a gun."

Scary to think he may have been right on that.

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to Estring)

RE: Religion - 8/1/2004 12:19:50 PM

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quote:

Why not be moral? Each human, religious or not, is called to be the best one can. History has shown what disasters may unfurl from people who place all responsibility of their "morals" on their religions.

Exactly. Was Albert Schweitzer immoral because he lack a faith in a big guy who'd hit him for doing wrong?

Two subs. One does something for fear of punishment. The other does something because it is the right thing to do. Which behave morally?

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to basiasubrosa)

RE: Religion - 8/1/2004 1:23:00 PM

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From: Middle Tennessee
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Which, is where the law comes in. No one with any common sense can state that murder, or the like is moral. Now, if they for some mental reason, think that it is moral to commit such a crime, then they have larger issues than morality. A sense of morality for some people comes from religion. Like I said, I have no problem with that. I happen to think that religion teaches well founded values and morals. If that is what you base your life on, I'm more than happy for you. The only problem I had is with myself, no other's beliefs. The whole "moral issue" has been in conflict for many years. People of different cultures may think some things are moral, when we don't. And yes, I still think that comes from within. It's who you are, being changed by society to a point. We have laws which govern how we are to conduct ourselves. These laws are there to protect us from the next person who thinks it's moral to murder another human life.

The role religion plays in all this, is huge. It's a built in sense in all human life that there must be a presence above our own. It's something, I think, we all long for...hope for. Yet, none of us can prove. I was always taught never to argue about politics or religion...lol. Those are things people are very passionate about, thing people hold dear...close to their heart.

That role, is definately significate. Yet, I don't believe anymore. However, that has not in any way, changed my outlook on life. I haven't changed my basic morals.

Ya'll have a great day,
Myra......

< Message edited by SentForu -- 8/1/2004 1:27:31 PM >

(in reply to Estring)

RE: Religion - 8/1/2004 1:30:00 PM

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LOL, realizing this arguement can, and has went on for centuries. We're not going to come to any concrete conclusions. Just reminding everyone, this post was for opinions. Maybe, to give ya something to think about a bit...;)

(in reply to SentForu)

RE: Religion - 8/1/2004 2:39:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

So if someone feels it is perfectly moral to murder, who are you to say they are wrong? Their morality comes from within themselves just as yours does. How then can you state that they are wrong?

The morality isnt the act of murder... its the question of why?

Is there a difference between killing someone because You want to kill them and they wish to remain alive... and killing someone because they have asked it, or indeed, killings oneself?

The morality isnt the killing... the morality is how it effects others.

My friend commited suicide. Was that morally wrong? Or was it a personal choice which effected others?... I was devestated... I loved her more than anything and would have done anything I could to keep her alive... but it was her choice for herself, and I respect her for that and will never love her any less. It was her choice to make about herself.

A man kills another man because their religion seperates them...Is that morally wrong? Just because someones skin is a different colour, or they do not share the same God, is it right for One to kill another?

A soldier kills an Man with a gun aimed at a civilian to save that persons life... is that morally wrong?... Or is He following orders and offering His protection to someone who has no ability to fight back?

Morality isnt about 'answering to someone or something higher than yourself'... its about the effect on others around you and staying true to yourself. It isnt a religious issue, Its a human rights one.(IMO)

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Estring)

RE: Religion - 8/1/2004 3:32:34 PM

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angel, I think you've answered my question.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: Religion - 8/12/2004 2:55:29 AM

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This thread may have died ... but I'm putting in my two bits anyway :-)

My take on the higher being is it is the totality of things. We are all part of the higher being ... but the higher being is bigger than any one of us. Spirituality is in the connections between people and the bigger reality or consciousness.

My take on religions is they are created by people - contain spiritual knowledge - but also contain the limitations of the people that created them. It logically follows - that if religions were created by people (no matter how strong of a spiritual guide they may be) - that all morality is created by people.

Getting back to God being the collective of all things - I would say that we define morality based on the society we keep. The group conscience is what is moral. Interestingly - most everyone defines murder as evil - so it is outside the bounds of what is considered moral.

Personally, I like David Hume's take - that we define our personal morality based on the company we keep. We choose our friends and companions. Their reaction to our thoughts and actions is mirrored back to us - and helps us define our personal morality. Choosing my companions - both the flesh and blood type as well as the books - helps me define what it means to be moral.

Ig

(in reply to Estring)

RE: Religion - 8/12/2004 5:02:39 AM

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Angel does not base her friendships on morals or upon her morality.

I have friends who would consider themself devout christians...

I have friends who are muslims...

I have friends who are pagans...

wiccans...

buddist...

someone addicted to drugs...

someone who consider Himself a worshiper of satan.

These are my friends...they are diverse... they are individuals. All have seperate morals and opinions. Each are unique. And each are a blessing and teach Angel more every moment she exists.

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ignatiaus)

RE: Religion - 8/12/2004 5:03:13 PM

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quote:

There are 4 possibiliteies that I see for evil, other than it is human caused by acts of freewill. ("Children die of the black plague because people choose to live in unsanitary conditions and not kill the rats." Tough to argue against because the free will of a farmer in the Amazon may or may not affect my pancreas. )

1) God is not omnipotent. (Dualism, evil diety is strong enough for evil.)
2) God is not omnibenevolent (i.e. doesn't care)
3) God is not omniscient (he doesn't know about it)
4) Youll never understand HIS ways, mortal! (Job's answer)

How do you define evil?

This changes depending on who you talk to.

I personally go with #4, if I am forced to choose.

But a lot of that is discussed in the story of the 4 blind wise men describing an elephant.

One feels the trunk and says and elephant is like a snake.
One feels the leg and says it is like a tree
One feels the side and says it is like a wall
One feels the ear and says it is like a fan

None of them are wrong, but none of them possess the ability to fully understand what an elephant actually is.

I dont personally feel I am capable of understanding everything a supreme being would understand.

Sinergy

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to basiasubrosa)

RE: Religion - 8/12/2004 5:23:44 PM

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"Well my kind of subject!
You see my Father killed himself, and I thought I was at fault for His Death~ Listen to this and see if it Makes sence???

God is not giving all this Pain and Suffering.
Man is~!!! God wanted us to be peacful and happy, and we have
done everything against that to screw it up~~

At the end we will be judged it says so in the Bible which I say is the most read book in the World~~

We can believe or not, but when it is all over Will know why we should have listened~~

"In the Beginning of the Bible it states God Word is law and can never be Broken"

Sincerely, Anthony~

(in reply to basiasubrosa)

RE: Religion - 8/12/2004 8:54:58 PM

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From: Middle Tennessee
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Maybe not "giving", but just not caring?

Sinergy,
You maybe right. None of us really understands it. We all see things differently. I can look at something and see it as blue, while you see it as purple. Just comes with how each individual sees anything in life. The good thing is, when it all comes out in the wash, we're all humans and have a basic love for one another.

Ya'll take care,

Myra

(in reply to knees2you)

RE: Religion - 8/12/2004 10:16:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

Angel does not base her friendships on morals or upon her morality.

I have friends who would consider themself ...

So let me clarify ... there are people who I admire and respect ... and I use them as my mirror to clarify and understand my own morals.

Certainly I can enjoy and learn and watch many people in life ... but I am looking for my own center and connection to the great beyond ... whatever that is.

If I chose to define myself / morals / beliefs by what they are not - I would say I don't believe in a Czar of the Heavens who arbitrarily pees on some and rewards others. I don’t believe in a God capricious enough to appear only to the enlightened few – who shows up at the end of life and says you called me by the wrong name or the right name. I don’t believe that religions are handed down directly from any supreme being – but more than they started based on spiritual guides and principles and were adjusted to the organizational and structural needs of the masses. I certainly won’t live my life based on a book that was written over several hundred years by people who never met their spiritual guide, a book that was put together by vote in a committee created by an emperor who wanted order and certainly in his Christianity.

I’ve been a seeker most of my life – wanting to understand connections to others in the world and to whatever is greater than us. The most real contact I’ve found yet is in the friendship and kinship with my fellow beings.

Ig

< Message edited by ignatiaus -- 8/12/2004 10:25:48 PM >

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: Religion - 8/13/2004 6:29:16 AM

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quote:

"Thou Art God"
Michael Valentine--Stranger in a Strange Land Robert Heinlein

What is in the world is of your own creation. The entity to whom one has to answer is one's own self.
As an intense question, from you, to you, "what have you done to eliminate or reduce the suffering in the world?" i only ask to make you think. If you dismiss God as uncaring, incompetent, or unresponsive, are you willing to fill the void? Will you do something today to alleviate someone's suffering in this world? It will help. will you curse the dark, or light a candle?

i am not a great believer in religion, but my faith is very strong.

quote:

"Dear God, I missed Mass on Sunday, it was a beautiful day and I went fishing." signed Conroy.
"Dear Conroy, It's Okay, I don't know who built the church, but I made the sunshine" signed God
Unoriginal Sinner and the Ice Cream God

Religion has always struck me as human's way to explain the unexplained, and can be used as some humans' way to exploit and profit from the unexplained.
You really can't make God, or much of anyone else do your bidding for you. You can approach things from the way that you would like to see them happen and it might amaze you to find out that "Thou art God", and that you can make an enormous difference.

The choice is always yours
YoursMaam

quote:

Sometimes You Go Away, But I am Always Here

(in reply to SentForu)

RE: Religion - 8/13/2004 9:57:29 AM

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quote:

Getting back to God being the collective of all things - I would say that we define morality based on the society we keep.

I respect Your opinion, I find it fascinating... however I do not believe I base my morality upon the friends I have, or the society I keep. If I did such, in Angels opinion... that would make her a blinkered person. I have my own morality... I certainly do not allow the 'society' I keep to shape it... like I said before I truely believe that morality isnt a religious issue, it is however a human rights one.

I do not see things as good or bad, right or wrong as I do not believe in black and white.

quote:

The group conscience is what is moral.

The group concience of what is moral is not which Angel follows, but herself and others as individuals.

quote:

Interestingly - most everyone defines murder as evil - so it is outside the bounds of what is considered moral.

This is one point, for example as to why Angel does not believe in black and white.
Is murder evil? *awaits with baited breath*

And to that does eveyone consider murder evil? I would state that if 'most everyone' was to look deep within themselves they may find a surprising answer...

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ignatiaus)

RE: Religion - 8/13/2004 10:37:01 AM

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From: New Castle, PA
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may be apropos of nothing, but here it is:

in re God not caring-

I try to remember that God answers all prayers

usually with a no

just my tuppence

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Apply Usual Caveats Here

An expert is somone who has made all the mistakes there are to be made

(in reply to basiasubrosa)

RE: Religion - 8/13/2004 7:40:47 PM

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"It's funny, but We see, and Yet where still blind~~"

"He was Despised by man, Persucuted and died how can we reject that???

Sincerely, eyesofAlsave

quote:

"Delight in Yourself and Your reward, will be small"

(in reply to Thanatosian)

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