RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (Full Version)

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thishereboi -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/11/2008 3:39:16 PM)

Don't send her over here.



Vendaval -> RE: The Dividing Issue-Palin's view Abortion (9/11/2008 8:00:15 PM)

Several other factors need to be taken into consideration here and hard data is missing for many of the statistics.
 
#1 Population growth in the US, percentages of fertile women before and after Roe vrs. Wade
 
#2 Under-reporting of self-induced abortions and illegal abortions performed by doctors
 
#3 Under-reporting of women who were seriously damaged, lost their fertility or died from these practices
 
#4 Under-reporting of abortions performed in other countries for wealthy American women
 
#5 Under-reporting of young women who were pregnant out of wedlock and who were shuttled off to stay with a female relative and forced to give their infants up for adoption 
 
#6 How many reported miscarriages were actually abortions
 
#7 Verified statistics of women dying from complications during pregnancy, childbirth or post-partum
 

This is not a new issue.  Every culture and civilization known to humanity has had various ways of preventing pregnancies, aborting unwanted pregancies, controlling fertility and the allocation of food and other resources to raise unmentionables when the population pressures became too high compared to the available food supply.



quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


quote:

While Roe vs Wade was still being screwed around with, they estimate illegal abortions were at something around 1.2 million per year.

You don't show any reference t confirm your number, but based upon numbers provided by Planned Parenthood legalization hasn't changed that number. In the last year reported, 2004 the number was 1.3 Million.


...ok, let's take that as a given. Roe v Wade had no measurable effect on abortion rates. What we can say then is that Roe v Wade has had its greatest effect on the survival rate of the mother.  i have no idea what sort of percentage of women died from needless complications when abortion was illegal, but i have no problem asserting that that number is now much lower.
Pro-life? Ergo, Roe v Wade has saved lives. Just not the lives you're thinking of probably......



patwi -> RE: The Dividing Issue-Palin's view Abortion (9/11/2008 8:03:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Pro-life? Ergo, Roe v Wade has saved lives. Just not the lives you're thinking of probably......


Ok! So then, let's hone in on the part of the debate that's been strongly implied by the "abortions should be dangerous" quip, but that no one has hit head-on yet:

Did those lives deserve to be saved?



......really?



DefiantFlower -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/11/2008 9:42:48 PM)

I didn't read through all the posts, but I still feel relieved. To just see how many people here are speaking out against Palin renews my faith in humanity. Hehe...Between the threat to take away the right to choose, the whole banning books deal, and her preference to oil drilling in Alaska over the poor polar bears...the idea of the Rep party winning the election was making me sick!

Thanks guys, for inadvertently raising my spirits!



caitlyn -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 6:15:27 AM)

General ...
 
Angry words often get the response you want. It may have been intentional, you know. [;)]
 
In this instance, what is obviously lacking is any mention of the unborn baby, and watching people cling to the rape and incest party line. I trust everyone knows how few abortions fall into that category and how many fall into the category of after the fact birth control.
 
So, find me frightening if you wish ... I can take it. I find the protection of after the fact birth control. to be equally frightening.



corysub -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 6:32:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

This is why I vote the way I do.  This is a woman's basic right to choose.
 
http://www.theledger.com/article/20080909/NEWS/809090365/-1/WIRE04&title=Palin_Pick_Adds_Fuel_to_Abortion_Debate

Regards, MissSCD
 
Before you attack me, I personally do not believe in abortion.  I think women the right to choose with certain limitations.
 



I agree with you...I feel it is horrible that a woman would have to consider aborting her child.  The reasons are personal and, therefore, can't be questioned, although using abortion as birth control should not be subsidized by taxpayers, in my view.

I have a daughter and she should have the right to choose.  While I disagree with Sarah Palin on this issue..I also disagree with  people I love in my family and doesn't mean they are no longer part of my family.  This is an important issue, but the right to abortion IS the law of the land. I don't sense the urgency "one issue" institutions like Planned Parenthood place on this.  It's not a deal breaker for me when there are so many other also near-term important issues to be considered.  Should the Supreme Court vote to overthrow Roe v Wade some time down the road, I would join you in protest in Washington to have the laws changed by Constitutional amendment if necessary to allow a woman's right to choose.




meatcleaver -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 6:42:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

General ...
 
Angry words often get the response you want. It may have been intentional, you know. [;)]
 
In this instance, what is obviously lacking is any mention of the unborn baby, and watching people cling to the rape and incest party line. I trust everyone knows how few abortions fall into that category and how many fall into the category of after the fact birth control.
 
So, find me frightening if you wish ... I can take it. I find the protection of after the fact birth control. to be equally frightening.


I've absolutely no problem with abortion up to 20 weeks, between 20-24 weeks there is a debatable issue because of viability of the fetus. When pro-life people start wanting to take responsiblilty for all the would be children, I'll reconsider my approach. There are enough children in the world that die through neglect because no one cares, which is why I can't understand why people have such a problem with abortion.



kittinSol -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 6:46:28 AM)

Either you haven't read the posts very thoroughly, or you're being deliberately pig-headed, but you are wrong.



StrangerThan -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 7:40:28 AM)

I became a father at the age of 16. If anyone here knows what it takes to raise a child when you're still a child yourself, and start out with virtually nothing, I do. I'm not anti-abortion in most cases. I say most because anything late term, partial or anyone who just can't seem to figure out that closing their legs or using birth control will stop the repeated trips to abortion clinics is just going too damned far. The problem is that both sides will choose the most gut-wrenching scenes to further their cause, while ignoring the fact that 99 percent of the rest have nothing to do with the emotional trauma they're using to get your vote.

Rape and incest account for a minute fraction of abortions. The numbers are also small for maternal health issues or fetal issues. The vast majority - something like 95% are done for reasons of birth control. I absolutely hate laws that infringe upon personal decisions. Even so, a little personal responsibility would go a long way in easing some of those traumatic images associated with this debate.

We all make mistakes. I can grant that to anyone. Been there and done that with raising my daughter. It was hard as hell. For that reason, I have a hard time voting for anyone who simply wants it banned. At the same time, I'm not real friendly towards the extreme of the other side either who want unlimited access. As with most elections, I will probably vote the lesser of evils and this debate is only a fraction of the evils to consider on both sides. Give me a candidate with a reasonable approach to this issue, and I'll vote for them all day long over those who ride the fringes. What I equate reasonable with is fairly simple. An understanding that it is a personal decision, that there are no black-booted gangs riding around forcing otherwise innocent women into abortion clinics, that there be limits on its use as birth control (spay or neuter? lol), that abortions will occur regardless of its legality, that opting to stop the death of a fetus is in some ways, opting to kill a percentage of those who for what ever reason have it done illegally and die from it. Either way, the fire-breathing, teary eyed extremists who will never be happy regardless of what the outcome is.

Boils down to large groups of people too interested in what everyone else does rather than living their own lives and tending their own gardens.



kittinSol -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 7:49:04 AM)

Birth control fails.



meatcleaver -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 8:00:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Birth control fails.


It doesn't matter if it does, there is always abortion. Its a simple medical procedure and for a society that can justify war and execution, its a little hypocritical to say a fetus that hasn't developed into a fully formed and viable person, should be sanctified.



kittinSol -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 8:02:30 AM)

You don't need to convince me, Cleaver *sigh* - I was responding to the erroneous but common belief that women resort to regular abortions as a way to exert birth control over their own bodies.



meatcleaver -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 8:23:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You don't need to convince me, Cleaver *sigh* - I was responding to the erroneous but common belief that women resort to regular abortions as a way to exert birth control over their own bodies.


Yes I know. I was trying to be helpful, though maybe I wasn't[sm=beatdeadhorse.gif] Its a habit of mine.



kittinSol -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 8:27:56 AM)

Your enthusiasm commends you [8D] .



Mercnbeth -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 8:30:31 AM)

Unless woman lied to Planned Parenthood "Birth Control" is the #1 answer:

3% involved the mother's health
1% involved the baby's health
1% involved rape
95% were a matter of birth control

Source: http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm#United%20States



meatcleaver -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 8:32:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Unless woman lied to Planned Parenthood "Birth Control" is the #1 answer:

3% involved the mother's health
1% involved the baby's health
1% involved rape
95% were a matter of birth control

Source: http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm#United%20States


There is nothing wrong with birth control, the world needs it. No one is bothered about the excess population that is suffering and dying in poverty as it is.



kittinSol -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 8:48:33 AM)

They are implying that women use abortion as a REGULAR method of contraception - which is, of course, wrong.

Edited for clarity.



Owner59 -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 8:51:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Unless woman lied to Planned Parenthood "Birth Control" is the #1 answer:

3% involved the mother's health
1% involved the baby's health
1% involved rape
95% were a matter of birth control

Source: http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm#United%20States



Wow Merc,

What a lame link,and to an anti-abortion web site,using a source from  " Central Illinois Right To Life".

This discussion requires more than cut&paste jobs from anti-abortion websites and the like.

Some original thoughts,maybe?

Or treating this subject with some respect,perhaps?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The overwhelming majority of all abortions, (95%), are done as a means of birth control.
  • Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest;
  • 1% because of fetal abnormalities;
  • 3% due to the mother's health problems.
     
    Source: Central Illinois Right To Life



    • meatcleaver -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 8:57:24 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: kittinSol

    They are implying that women use abortion as a method of contraception - which is, of course, wrong.


    Yep. The idea that there is a simplistic reason why anyone has an abortion doesn't stand up to indepth testimonies. Even if a woman was using it as a form of contraception, what are the reasons that brought her to that decision and why should it concern anyone else?



    kittinSol -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 9:06:03 AM)

    I added the word 'regular contraception' to my post to clarify - anybody that has ever had to go through a termination will confirm that it's not a whirly gig. Nobody would do that on a regular basis just because it's convenient, unless they were a little insane, in which case they would need psychiatric care. It's not convenient, and it's not easy. It's inconvenient, it's painful, it's an operation, it takes medical supervision, it can be expensive, and it's taxing on an emotional and physical level. It can take weeks to recover from it.

    Add to that the social stigma that is still attached to it and the guilt that people try to throw in your general direction (though I was lucky and had tons of support), and it's amazing that there is still a belief that women will terminate a pregnancy because it's the easy way out.

    Making a decision like that is anything but easy: the easy way out is letting nature takes it course even if it will change one's existence negatively, just because one is scared of intervening.



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